Just got a new Antigua 582lq soprano sax!

[hall3]

Well, Just picked up my new Antigua 582lq soprano sax today. What a beautiful instrument! I took it to church band practice today and most people thought it cost more than $1,000 ...one person thought it cost $2,000. I was so blessed today; I didn't even have to pay customs on the instrument! Yes, no customs! I think it was due to the hurricane relief measures taken in the Bahamas to get people who lost their homes back on their feet. They could bring in building supplies duty free.

Anyway, what's the use of having a beautiful instrument if it doesn't play as beautiful as it looks. I am having lots of problems playing the instrument. When I try to play the low register the second register sounds even if I do not press the octave key. The most clear notes are D2, E2, F2, G2, and A2. The low C warbles horribly. I remember reading on this forum that you need to get the mpc pretty high up on the cork. Is 2/3 up the cork high enough? Or do I need to sand paper that cork down to get the mpc on further? I need some serious help! By the way, here is some background information on me: I have played flute for over 17 years, alto sax for over a year, and soprano sax a few hours. I don't think its my embouchure though. Anyway, someone please help!

thanks,


D'Angelo.

[goodsax]

If possible, have a repair tech check your sax for leaks and proper regulation. The way you describe your difficulty suggests at least one, possibly more leaking pads. Another suspect is the mouthpiece and reed setup. It's been fairly unanimous that the mpc that comes with not only Antigua saxes, but many others, is not worth the material it's made from. Try to find an opportunity to try other mouthpieces. The one that works best for me happens to be a Yanagisawa 5, but what works best is an individual thing. The same goes for the reed and ligature.

But, my first inclination is toward the possible pad leak. I'm not a tech, but I've been around a few saxes with similar problems and personally observed my tech locate and fix the leaks and work his regulation (key height, pad alignment, etc.) magic that always leads to a fully playable instrument.

I'm sure others will have more suggestions for you.

[Dave Dolson]

D'Angelo: You did not tell us what mouthpiece you are using with your new Antigua. If it is the one that comes with the horn, you may need to buy a decent after-market mouthpiece. I assume you've looked over the whole horn and determined that everything is closing and opening properly . . . and that you've ensured your horn is playing to pitch when you've placed your mouthpiece.

When I tested your model at Kessler's, the fixed-neck was corked so thick that I couldn't shove on far enough to make the thing play. The other Antiguas played great (I was able to shove on far enough).

On my 590LQ, I shove my mouthpiece (a Selmer Super Session J) on to about 1/4" to 1/8" from the bottom of the cork. And, I check the horn's tuning with a tuned piano (by ear). Assuming your horn is working properly, I'd guess your problems may be 1) mouthpiece, and 2) thick cork. Let us know. DAVE

[Fred]

When a sax is shipped anywhere, there's always a possibility that something could get out of adjustment - assuming it was in adjustment when it was shipped! That being said, do you have access to a leak light that you can use to see if all the pads are sealing? Or a tech that could check it for you? That's really the first step.

After that, the mouthpiece usually has to be pushed on pretty far on an Antigua. Check your intonation with a tuner to see if you need to push in more. If you do, that could help the other problem as well.

You made a great choice with the Antigua! Don't be discouraged!

[hall3]

goodsax:


I'm thinking a brand new instrument shouldn't need to be checked for leaky pads? I'm I right? Everything seemed to be closing and opening nicely though. I had to remove some corks that were placed under the keywork for shipping purposes. I first thought that they were the reason I could only get a few notes but after I removed them, the problem persisted.


Dave Dolson:

I am using the 4C mouthpiece that came with the instrument. Even if the mpc isn't the best shouldn't it still play the whole range of the instrument? I did check to see if the keys were closing as they should and they seemed so to me but I'm not an expert. I am thinking of taking the following measures:

(1) Have one of my more seasoned saxophone friends play it
(2) Try getting the mpc further on the cork with cork grease
(3) Sand paper the cork down and get the mpc on that way

I'm kind of hesitant about number three though; don't want to destroy the cork or instrument.


Fred:

I don't have a tuner but I will check it with my keyboard. My gut feeling is telling me thiough that it is probably the mpc not being on far enough on the cork that's the problem.

[goodsax]

goodsax:
I'm thinking a brand new instrument shouldn't need to be checked for leaky pads? I'm I right? Everything seemed to be closing and opening nicely though. I had to remove some corks that were placed under the keywork for shipping purposes. I first thought that they were the reason I could only get a few notes but after I removed them, the problem persisted.

Yes, you're right. They shouldn't need to be checked for leaky pads. But, when you experience difficulty playing notes in the low register such as you described, that's one distinct possibility that should be checked. I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but are you sure you got all the shipping corks removed? Stranger things have happened. Also, there's really no guarantee that the seller did a good job of setting up your sax before delivering it to you. Some are better than others at that. Some don't even attempt to setup and play-test horns they sell, unfortunately.

[SAXISMYAXE]

I have to agree with what Paul Coates said in another post; the 4C mouthpiece that comes with the Antigua Winds 582LQ Soprano isn't really a bad piece at all.
In fact I would rate it far better than most stock mouthpieces included with higher priced pro horns from the big boys that I have purchased. I have tried a few vintage soprano pieces that I have, along with the Morgan Protone that I bought with my Antigua, and they all do well on this horn.
You should be able to play the entire range of the instrument provided it has been set up properly (which it probably was if you bought it through Kessler & Sons-Chuck Kessler does a super job with this.), and you have some experience with playing the Soprano Sax.
Might I suggest that you review your reed strength, as too hard a reed will give you trouble, especially if your chops are not accustomed to the Soprano and it's eccentricities. I find that a Vandoren 2.5, ZZ 3 , or Rico 2.5 to 3 seems to work fine with the 4C.

[goodsax]

You should be able to play the entire range of the instrument provided it has been set up properly (which it probably was if you bought it through Kessler & Sons-Chuck Kessler does a super job with this)...

I agree that Kessler Music has an excellent reputation for setting up and testing every sax they sell before shipping it. But, I didn't read anything in Hall3's posts suggesting he bought the sax from Kessler. I'm not sure he mentioned where he got it, which remains a good question.

[hall3]

goodsax:

I checked the sax over and over! No more corks from shipping. Thanks for asking though.


Mike:

I have used Rico Royal #2 and Rico #2 1/2 reeds with the 4C mouthpiece and have gotten similiar results.

[hall3]

Guys:

I did purchase the instrument from Dave Kessler. I was pretty pleased with the service and response to my questions. I haven't mentioned the problem with the sax to Dave though.

[Dweekie]

The warbling of the lower octave notes has been mentioned before in posts. If i remember correctly, it seems that some people just can't seem to get these notes out well on antigua and even yanagisawas, but play yamahas effortlessly. I've had some low note probs myself on the antigua, but they were quickly remedied by practice and holding the instrument out farther from the body (and consequently changing the angle of the mouthpiece in the mouth). It may be technique that determines these problems you're having. Keep practicing those long tones and play around with the mouthpiece angle and the angle that you are holding the saxophone. Paul Coats has great articles in the main page; you may need to do some mouthpiece-only excercises on getting the ideal pitch for soprano sax playing as listed in one of his articles. If you're looking for a great beginning mouthpiece, I have a Morgan Protone listed for sale that I got with the antigua. It's fantastic to learn on, but you might even be inclined to jump straight ahead to a professional mouthpiece purchase.

[Fred]

Have you tried playing against the keyboard yet? It could be as simple as mp placement on the cork.

Also, my antigua got ever so slightly out of adjustment during shipping. It was an adjustment screw issue that had slipped. Easily remedied, and now plays great.

[Albireo]

When I got my Antigua 586BC from Kessler, I had problems with low C (when it played, it was VERY sharp) and had problems rendering high B or above. After talking to Chuck, I pushed the Morgan Protone farther on the cork-- only about 3/16" or so of cork left. Both problems disappeared, and haven't come back even if I've got the mouthpiece pulled out farther than that.

hall3, you also might try holding the horn at an angle that approximates the same angle at which an alto mouthpiece sits in your mouth. And try both necks comprehensively, if you haven't already.

In my experience (only six weeks or so) with the stock mouthpiece, it's an OK player but not easy for starting out with. The Morgan Chuck sent me was much more ergonomically correct and forgiving, especially as I'd switched from tenor and haven't played extensively in about ten years. The stock mp exacerbated all of the problems I had with my embouchure being lax for so long.

Chuck Kessler play-tests the Antiguas Kessler sells pretty thoroughly. If something isn't working well, make sure to call him. I'd be willing to bet that he can get the problem fixed over the phone for you.

If you have to sand the cork, I've heard it's helpful to wrap some plastic wrap or tape around the metal of the neck to protect it from the sandpaper.

Hope this helps!

[Dave Dolson]

Contrary to what others may think about the 4C piece that comes with Antigua horns, I did not like it and could hardly play the thing. Just because one or two players like it doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

Sanding the cork (or lubricating it well) is no big deal - do it if that's what it takes to shove the piece on further without splitting the piece's barrel. The cork is easily replaced if you take off too much. Just be careful as you sand it, being sure to go slowly and easily and continually testing the fit. Use strips of fine paper and pull the ends in both directions as you go around the cork evenly. It does not require you to remove a lot of material . . . sand, lube, test, and repeat until the fit is better.

I agree with the idea of protecting the brass just below the cork - just in case the sandpaper slips and scratches the brass.

We'd all like to think a new saxophone doesn't need to have the pads checked for leakage, but that's exactly what needs to be done on many saxophones, including many of the big four - even Yamahas and Yanagisawas, known to be the best players out of the box (especially if the horn was shipped after being shop-checked!!).

If the mouthpiece is not right for you, there is no reason to think it should play the whole range of the horn. Sopranos require a much tighter embouchure than do the bigger saxophones, hence you need a good mouthpiece to play the full range of the horn. I have a bunch of "stocks" from various horn purchases and vintage pieces, and many of those will not play the full range of my horns, at least when I blow them. When I slap on a good playing piece, voila! the horn speaks, and speaks well. By the way, my 590LQ never gurgled, and it played well - on pitch from bottom to top. DAVE

[hall3]

Guys:

Thanks for all your help! I was able to fix the problem today. The problem was that one of the very small keys was not sitting properly over the tone hole. It must have been bent away from its position during shipping. After it was bent back over the hole, the instrument played as beautifully as it looks. All the low notes and high notes played just fine. The guy I took it to also gave me some pointers on how to play it. He told me that I am trying to play the sax like I play the flute. Then he showed me that I should curl my lips like I am over emphasizing the "m" in words like mom and mama. When he played it, the low register sounded rich and warm. When I play it, I get a broader more coarse sound but I'm working on the things he showed me and I already hear some progress. I'm thinking about taking lessons for a month or so. Just to get the fundamentals down. Oh, I also tested the sax with my keyboard (using the 4C mpc). Most of the notes were dead on. It plays enough in tune for me. Anyway thanks again.

[hall3]

I'm back again. Most of the notes are playing fine. But D2 and Eb2 are coming out an overtone above the actual notes. What would cause something like that? thanks!

[SAXISMYAXE]

Well I must say for someone not accustomed to playing the Saxophone, you sure picked the hardest of the family to learn on! All kidding aside (it really is the hardest though :oops: ) I would definitely get a tutor to, at the very least, get the fundamentals down, as the nasty habits a self taught player can develope are amplified all the more on the soprano of the sax family. If you have mastered the flute, with a little help, you should do just fine on the Saxophone. Best of luck on your journey.

[Dave Dolson]

D'Angelo: I had that very thing happen on a horn I had shipped to me once. Bent the small high-note pad back over the tone hole and away we went. That's why the first thing I mentioned was a complete look-see at the mechanisms.

What do you mean by an "overtone" over the D2 and Eb2? If you mean that instead of speaking the proper note, the notes jump up to a higher pitch, you may have a problem in the octave mechanisms. Look VERY closely at the lower ocatve pip and pad as you finger those notes (while pressing the octave key on the back). If you see the slightest movement in either octave pad (upper or lower), that will cause those two lower-middle notes to fail to speak and/or have a stuffy, non-full sound. DAVE

[hall3]

Dave Dolson:

What is the lower octave pip and pad? I have no idea.

[Dave Dolson]

Saxophones have two octave vents - the lower one opens for D2 to G#2, and the upper one opens for A2 and above, when the octave key on the back of the horn is pressed.

One closes and the other opens, as appropriate. The mechanism is complicated and delicate and it is essential that it works perfectly, otherwise the middle octave will play poorly, if at all.

Look closely at the whole horn and observe what happens when one fingers certain keys. You will notice the lower octave vent opening when you finger a middle G (G2) and press the octave key. From G2, finger A2 and notice the lower octave vent close while the upper octave vent opens (or at least that's what is supposed to happen). While you're at it, finger a G#, then while holding that note, finger an F and watch the mechanism automatically close the G# vent. These are interacting mechanisms that need to be perfect. ANY lifting (or failure to close tightly) indicates a problem.

The "pip" is just another way of saying "tone hole" - that part of the body where the opening occurs and a pad covers the hole. Octave vents (aka holes) are often called "pips" because they are small and raised above the level of the tube (well, most tone holes are raised above the level of the tube, but some octave vents look like little spouts, hence the term "pip").

Just yesterday, I solved a similar problem on my Buescher alto (a D2 that wanted to speak A2). I guessed it was in the octave mechanism, and sho' 'nuff. I fixed it by bending the octave-mechanism post (the rod that presses the octave-ring on the neck) away from the ring sufficiently so that it didn't touch the ring until necessary.

Hope that helps. DAVE

[hall3]

Dave Dolson said:

"Look closely at the whole horn and observe what happens when one fingers certain keys. You will notice the lower octave vent opening when you finger a middle G (G2) and press the octave key. From G2, finger A2 and notice the lower octave vent close while the upper octave vent opens (or at least that's what is supposed to happen). While you're at it, finger a G#, then while holding that note, finger an F and watch the mechanism automatically close the G# vent. These are interacting mechanisms that need to be perfect. ANY lifting (or failure to close tightly) indicates a problem. "

Dave when I finger G2 and A2 the vents open and close as you said. However, when I tried fingering G#, and while maintaining the G# fingering, finger the F key, the lower octave vent remains open. What does this mean? Isn' it suppose to remain open from D2 to G#2?

[Dave Dolson]

D'Angelo: Yes, the lower octave vent remains open if you depress the octave key on the back of the horn. I mentioned the interconnected G# function only as an example of OTHER mechanisms that need to be watched closely - the G#-to-F connection has nothing to do with the octaves.

I realize you said you looked at the upper and lower octave vents, but just to reiterate, you must look VERY CLOSELY - even the slightest movement off the tone hole will affect the way your horn plays the mid-range notes below A. It may help to have someone else push down various pads to see if that affects the way your horn plays - and to have someone else play your horn to see if they suffer the same problems.

The whole system is complicated and I've only mentioned a couple of areas that cause trouble. Once you identify all the variations in how the whole horn operates, you will be better equipped to asses the horn's functioning.

Now, I don't recall if you said you had a tech look at it, but as it has been stated before, some techs can miss the subtle failures-to- close and that's why it is so important for the owner/player to go over the horn thoroughly to try to identify suspected failures.

Lastly, the slightest leak anywhere may cause you problems. So be sure to check from the very top of the horn. Good luck. DAVE

[SaxyAcoustician]

My guess is that leaks are not the problem. Make sure you get the mouthpiece really down there on the cork! You will most likely have to sand the cork down to accomodate the mouthpiece. Mask off the lacquer with masking tape before doing so.

If problems persist, use a different strength reed.

[hall3]

I have used rico royal #2 and rico #2 1/2 reeds. Both play pretty much the same. I have an extended weekend because of our Heroes Day holiday today and I have been practicing soprano like mad. My thumb rest finger and my lower lip are very sore. Any tips on reducing the soreness. The 582lq is a pretty heavy instrument. How does Kenny G play that thing for so long without a neck strap and without tiring? The strap doesn't seem to work right with the straight soprano. Any tips on this? Oh, I'm taking the instrument to an experienced saxophone player to check out the D2 and Eb2 which don't sound properly.

[Dave Dolson]

D'Angelo: I don't think that Antigua is any heavier or lighter than any other sop. When you weigh a variety of sopranos (modern and vintage), you'll find the differences, if any, are slight - certainly not enough to make a significant difference. Others may disagree, but that's been my experience.

After 48 years of playing sop without a strap, I guess I'm just used to the weight on my thumb. It may be just a matter of developing the muscle groups involved (like new golfers hurting where they've never hurt before). Making slight variations in the angle of the horn and the slope of your shoulders may aid that process, too.

As for the lower lip, that too will pass in time once you build up the tissue in that area. Another factor is using a proper mouthpiece. I have mouthpieces that tire out my embouchure while others I can play for hours with no problem. True, you may be able to achieve a decent response with that stock 4C piece, but I'd wager there are other pieces out there that would be better for you as well as being easier on your chops. DAVE

[xuanvu]

The more you play it, your body will adjust to the weight of the sax, as does your lower lip will develop the muscle to overcome the soreness... When I first play the sop., after about an hour, my lowerlip seems like it've been cutted by something... But then the soreness and the cutting line disappear after awhile... I never use the neckstrap, I bought a thumbrest "extension" that made of rubber so that the metal part does not hurt my thumb.

Kenny.

[hall3]

Dave Dolson said:

"Look closely at the whole horn and observe what happens when one fingers certain keys. You will notice the lower octave vent opening when you finger a middle G (G2) and press the octave key. From G2, finger A2 and notice the lower octave vent close while the upper octave vent opens (or at least that's what is supposed to happen). While you're at it, finger a G#, then while holding that note, finger an F and watch the mechanism automatically close the G# vent. These are interacting mechanisms that need to be perfect. ANY lifting (or failure to close tightly) indicates a problem. "


Dave:

The octave mechanism is doing something different from when I tested it before. The upper octave vent is opening for notes D2 and above; the lower octave vent never opens. When I finger G2, and use my right hand to lift the lower octave vent pad it feels loose. What can I do to fix this? Didn't get to see the experienced sax guy today. Thanks, D'Angelo.

[Dave Dolson]

D'Angelo: The upper octave vent should remain closed and the lower octave vent should open when you press the octave key on the back of the horn and finger D2 through G#2. The upper vent should open for A2 while at the same time, the lower octave vent closes.

If it is doing anything else (and that's what you described - something different), then you have a problem. I can't tell you exactly why these vents are not opening or closing appropriately; that may be a job for your tech. However, you can always study the mechanism and figure out how it works. Of all the mechanisms, the octave vents' co-ordination is probably the most complicated.

It could be as simple as a spring off its hook (or broken - or reversed) - or having the lower octave vent pad stuck shut because of excessive moisture. Or, maybe something was bent in transit and it needs to be re-aligned. But whatever, the vents not opening and closing properly can be the source of your problem. DAVE

[hall3]

I got the problem with the D2 and Eb2 fixed. The spring (shaped like a pin), which is connected to the octave mechanism at the very top of the sax, was on the wrong side of the rod (hope that makes sense). Once the experienced sax player (Derron) placed it on the correct side the octave vents opened appropriately. However, when he played the instrument he didn't have the same problem as I did with D2 and Eb2. He told me that the problem was with me. But I was convinced it was the instrument because when I placed a rubber band over the upper octave pad, D2 and Eb2 sounded clearly and consistently. After I convinced him that I was right, he bent the very top spring back as far as he could without breaking it and then placed it back in its position. I noticed a difference right away. The D2 and Eb2 played much more clearly and consistently with a very very rare missed note. This I could deal with. But now I get no more missed notes.

I decided to take a month of classes from Derron to pick up some more pointers, especially on embouchure. He has a tenor sax student who doesn't allow his teeth to touch the mouthpiece at all! He curls both his bottom and top lips. The result is a soft, lush and warm low register. I tried this but it hurts so much. A book called Melbay's Saxophone Primer advises that you put the top teeth on the top of the mpc. Which way is correct? Can you get this sound either way?

[SAXISMYAXE]

John Coltrane played with a "Double lip embouchure. While there are players who use this style, it isn't recommended by most sax teachers/educators if it is at all possible for you to play using the conventional embouchure. Glad to hear that you got your problems fixed, and best of luck in your studies.

[shmuelyosef]

I got the problem with the D2 and Eb2 fixed. The spring (shaped like a pin), which is connected to the octave mechanism at the very top of the sax, was on the wrong side of the rod (hope that makes sense). Once the experienced sax player (Derron) placed it on the correct side the octave vents opened appropriately. However, when he played the instrument he didn't have the same problem as I did with D2 and Eb2.

An excellent practice that I can't remember who I learned it from is to practice 'inverted' registers. That is, play the high register without using the octave thumb key (this is easy) and the low register with the thumb key pressed (this is hard). Learn to play major scales in every key the whole range of the horn (skip the palm keys) with the octave thumb reversed like this. This will improve your tone almost as much as those long tones that I'm sure you practice for hours a day. It will also make you less dependent on the horn being absolutely perfect all the time (no excuse to not maintain your horn, however). It is probably skill like this that allowed Derron to play the horn...

[xuanvu]

I agree with the "inverted" technique that shmuelyosef mentioned... My private instructor taught me this and like shmuelyosef said, it's easy to play an octive higher, it's REALLY hard to play the low notes WITH the octive key pressed... but it could be done.