Set the record straight please!!!!!

[Hazedog]

It seems that the more I read about Runyon mouthpieces the more confused I get....I want one and I want one soon and I'm good for the money, but I need some clarification.

I am moving from a Berg 105/1 and want something even edgier and brighter; considered the 120/0 or 125/0 I have heard rave reviews about the Quantum, but the tone is described as "Dark"....isn't a high baffle piece usually "brilliant"? Is the Quantum a low baffle piece? I was very close to purchasing the Quantum, but they were out of white plastic. I play with amplified, often distorted guitars, so I need a very edgy, in your face cuthrough sound...and I want to optimize my potential to play better and higher altissimo.

Why can you not get a spoiler with the Bionix?

Why can you not get the Bionix in metal?

I'm very confused with the X.L./Quantum/Bionix debate. Which Runyon piece would be the highest baffle and comparable to a Berg Larson 120/0 stainless steel or one of those fusion pieces? I love Berg, but I want to give Runyon a shot. Please help.

[MojoBari]

The Quantum Baffle is medium high but very long. With the Spoiler in it the baffle is then high. The XL/Smoothbore has the same baffle but a small chamber/throat and a larger exteroir bite.

The Bionix has a large exterior body, but a very small chamber and high baffle. Any more baffle from inserting a Spoiler would choke it off.

I recommend trying the plastic Q with a Spoiler on tenor to compete with distorted guitars. The Q has a nicer sound without the Spoiler, so you have that option too. The metal Q is more expensive and a tad darker sounding.

The XL/Smoothbore may be more piercing, but I think it looses too much low end fullness.

[colibri]

None of Runyon's mouthpiece has the baffle as high as a Berg with a zero chamber (with the spoiler out of course). But they can be as bright or brighter. The Quantum has the highest baffle, but with a large chamber for a "thick" large chamber tone, it's not "dark" as in tubby/stuffy, or blending as some people would prefer to call it. The Bionix and XL has very small chambers. The baffle height is about a Berg with a 1 chamber. However small chambers can brighten up the tone considerably, since the air stream is so focus when it enters the saxophone.

[Hazedog]

Altissimo is very intriguing.....something that wind instruments have over string instruments...the better you get, the more notes are open to you. On a piano or guitar every note is laid out for you. That is originally why I ditched piano (my mom was a piano teacher) for clarinet and then sax. I can get the Rascher 4 octave range with my Berg...up to the fifth D of the instrument.... maybe not 100% accurately, but I can do it. Once in awhile in a fluke I can get a fifth higher than that to shoot out, but it always chokes out. I must admit that a lot of my mouthpiece quest is to top my range and I know there is a mouthpiece that will let me do it. I want the Pickett sky note one day and I know I have it in me. I know it is better to work on be a well rounded sax player rather than being so bent on extreme altissimo but I can't help it, it's an obsession. One thing I must have in a mouthpiece is maximum capability for this.

[MojoBari]

Well guitars and violins can play hamonics too.

Try a few Lakeys. Some of them are very good for high altissimo. The trade off is usually an airy sounding normal range at softer volumes.

For better intonation, check out Dr. R. Luckey's book on altissimo.

[JL]

Most good mouthpieces with baffles will allow you to play in the altissimo range. The rest is up to you. For a real loud sound to compete with electric guitars, I'd suggest a Sugal SGII, if you can find one for a reasonable price.

[Shaun SS]

Hazedog,

I Have always loved my Berg Larson 110/0. I bought 3 runyons to try, Quantum (with spoiler), XL (With spoiler) and a Bionix. I started recording them for other people to hear what they sound like. I have not had time to finish this yet. I recently sent back the Bionix though to get a smooth bore so you wont get a recording of that one.

Attached is a link to one of my pages. It has 4 different MP tests right now. Berg 110/0, Runyon Quantum, Quantum with Spoiler and for fun I put the spoiler in the Berg 110/0. http://www.geocities.com/sqwznss/mp_test.html

I'm not going to say which one is what until I have all the MPC's tests up. I want people to give me a real fair opinion and not a biased one. The recordings were also done almost right away when I received the MPC's, not having any time to learn them. So I will be re-recording all of them after I receive the smooth bore. I hope this can be of some help to you in the near future.

By the way, Charlie A's has a great return policy. You should give him a quick call.

[Les22]

Good stuff. All four sound quite similar to me so far; i guess one would expect the Q and Berg 0 chamber to sound similar. What tip size is the Q?
I bet the XL/smoothbore will sound different than these two. I wouldn't have guessed that the spoiler would fit in the Berg.

My experience with the Bionix is that it played much quieter and more focused than the Q. However, I was comparing a Q10 with a Bionix 8 tip size.

One idea: also record a bit where you really cut loose with these mp's, i.e., wailing :twisted: .

Looking forward to hearing more of your recordings.
Thanks,

Les

[Bill Mecca]

I agree with Les22, they all sound quite similar, so it will come down to which one is most comfortable for you. and I also agree with letting loose, I have had some mpcs sound great when playing pretty striaght but when I "got into it" and some "performance induced embouchure tighting (PIET) took place, some shut down on me and didn't respond as well.

You might also want to check out a Vandoren Jumbo Java, very Berg like. In fact I believe Lenny Pickett, a number of years ago was working with Vandoren on a HR mpc he could play, and this is the result.

I have a friend who plays a Berg 120/0 sms with a Runyon spoiler stuck in, slides right thru the 120/0M he has, go figure.

[Mike Ruhl]

You might also want to check out a Vandoren Jumbo Java, very Berg like. In fact I believe Lenny Pickett, a number of years ago was working with Vandoren on a HR mpc he could play, and this is the result.
Really! I didn't know that! :o

[Nitetimer]

Shaun, my preference is the 1st mouthpiece. A touch of Plas.

[Hazedog]

Someone told me to check the Sugal mouthpieces out. There is a pure carbon one that you can get gold plating on for about $1200. I think I'll sell my car and get one.

I might just go ahead and buy a Bionix and a Quantum. Then I won't have to choose and I've still spent much less money than one Sugal.

[JL]

LOL.....yeah the price for that thing is unbelieveable! The one I suggested (Super Gonz II) is relatively "cheap" at $595. But I hear you can pick the SGIIs up on ebay for much less. Getting back to Runyon, you might also check out the Jaguar. I've been playing one recently and am really liking it. It has a nice, powerful cutting sound that is bright yet full and very clear (this starts to sound like describing wines!). Don't know how it compares to other Runyons, though.

[Hazedog]

Well, I got the plastic Quantum spoiler. I am having trouble typing this because I've been drinking. I have a 14 facing, which is about a 118 tip opening. I'm having a little trouble getting used to the wider tip, as it takes more embosure endurance. I had to go down in reed strength. I think the Berg has a little better altissimo response...but the altissimo is fatter on the Quantum. I think the sound of the Quantum blows the Berg away for rock. I can play higher on the Berg...might be that I'm still getting used to the tip opening. You can play loud as anything on the Quantum....fat sound...obnoxious...but you can tone it down. Great for extreme dynamics. So I love the sound of the piece, but I'm still learning to control it. I am glad I bought it.

[Les22]

I love my plastic Quantum 10 on tenor. I got it in a trade from Bootman, thinking I would use it as a backup to my metal 1 chamber berg. Well, the berg is now long gone, as I have found the Q to be really fun to play: Loud, fat, expressive, great altisimo, raunchy or sweet, reed friendly, cool looking, etc. It allows me to get that tenor sound I've been looking for. I've recently tried the Bionix and Smoothbore, but they are definelty not what I want. Like the Berg, both are focused and tame relative to the Q. I surmise that I like a high baffle coupled with a big chamber and bore. The only other similar piece like this that i've had, was an old levelair, which I treaded away :cry: for the Q. In retrospect I should have traded away the Berg and kept the levelair.
I don't know anything about Sugal; but then again I've found and developed my sound for less than 100 bucks :D .
BTW; I recently bought a Runyon smoothbore (metal) 11 from WW&BW for $79. They call it a metal custom in their catalog?? but it's the smoothbore. Interestingly, if you want the Smoothbore with spoiler, it'll cost you $129. I'm about to send mine back, however, because it's not my bag.

Les

[JL]

I think you guys made a very good choice. Since I got used to the Jaguar, my Sugal sounds too raunchy and bright, even for R&B. Runyon definitely makes great mpcs.

[Shaun SS]

Les 22, billmecca.com, Nitetimer,

The recordings you guys were listening to were only of 2 MPC's, my Berg 110/0 and my Quantum that is why they sounded so much alike. I put the spoiler in the Quantum and in the Berg now making 4 MPC test. I still haven't goten around to doing some better recordings for everyone to hear the differences. I really need to try and get this done for everyone to hear but I am trying to learn all the little nitches each MPC has. Not only that but I am also making adjustments to my tenor since I am playing on a complete new setup. Sorry to keep everyone waiting but I will be doing some recording with the different MPC's soon I hope :)

[JL]

I just ordered a metal Quantum 10 tenor. That's the only way I'll know how it compares to the Jaguar, which I'm using now and really like. Once I feel I have two really great mouthpieces, I'll be done messin' with it (yeah, right!).

Will report my findings......

[Shaun SS]

JL.. Next time I go up to San MAteo I'll let you know. I'd be willing to let you try a few of the MPC's I have.. Talk to you later.

[JL]

Thanks. I'd be glad to check 'em out sometime.

[brickboo]

I tried Berg Larsen, Lawton, The Hawk, The Plastic Quantum and a few others when I started back playing 2 years ago. I tried openings in the 105 to 115 range on most of these mouth pieces. In Runyon I tried the #9 #10 and #11. the #10 was a million miles ahead of the 9 and the 10 and all of the different brands that I tried . I never could figure that out. Maybe I have a cull or freak #10 that may just be a 102 or a 130. I'm tempted to send it to Runyou to check it out for sure. But the #9 or #10 in the Meatal and Plastic Quantums did not perform as well as the #10 for me with my horn.

I have a Buescher "400" that I bought brand new in about 1963 or so.

The Runyon Metal Quantum #10 with the spoiler plays the low subtones and the easiest altissimo out of all of them. I played them all for many hours at that time. There was no comparison playing it with my Buescher "400"

When I try it witout the spoiler I can't subtone or play the altissimo near as easy as with the spoiler in. I also do not like the tone without the spoiler. I play anything from Body and Soul to Yakety Sax.

I can honk on Yakety Sax with it and I can do the subtle ballads with sub tones also. But keep in mind that I find the Buesher harder to subtone with than a Selmer Mark VI I played in the late 50's early 60's that was stolen from me out of a club.

The Buescher was a replacement for the Mark VI. I couldn't afford the Mark VI at the time for $595 new. So I got a going out of business sale on the brand new Buescher "400" for $475. Go ahead and laugh. But where and when I grew up $120 was a ton of money. It was a different world.
Boo Hargis

[mark_m]

How do the chamber sizes compare between the Berg and the Quantum?

[Charlie A.]

Hi, I'm Charlie A. and sell the Runyons thru my webb site, www.gigdust.com which you are probably familiar with. I just happened to catch your delimma about the "cutting edge mouthpiece".
I am also a tenor player that plays mostly in R & B, Rock & Roll, and similar groups where I have to compete with the other amplified instruments.
You have been given some good advice on this forum, however I wanted to let you know what I think about your delimma. The Quantum is a great mouthpiece and is quite versatile however I personally feel that the XL has the edge that you want over it as far as penetration is concerned. With the "spoiler insert" it is a killer but you need a fairly open tip to achieve the desired degree of penetration. with a comfortable but stiff enough reed to make it perform as you want. If penetration is what you want I believe that this will do it for you. I would also like to add that the custom "Metal" piece with the spoiler can be very edgy and cutting as well and as with the XL you need an open tip opening and comparable reed.
I don't know if you have purchased one yet but if you haven't I suggest that you try one of these over the Quantum, which I play, for your purpose.

Regards,
Charlie A.

[super20dan]

? for charlie a . i want to get away from useing a metal tenor mpc (due to its longer warm up time) and use runyons on alto . what is a better r&roll mpc the xl or the bionex . i prefer the brightest sound possible and use rico plasticover reeds .