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avan
12-08-2010, 11:08 PM
Is somebody have seen this before? my vito kenosha alto have no lacker at all. and there is no trace of older one left or trace of stripping. We often see this kind of finish on very old american sax but on late 50th, early 60th? Now he have a very dark natural color.

Honeyboy
12-09-2010, 12:52 AM
Mine doesn't seem to have much lacquer on it either.

artstove
12-09-2010, 03:37 AM
I have a Vito Kenosha, that is a dark color. Looks very nice to me. I assumed that the lacquer had gone dark, not that it was gone. I'll take another look. And I looked at what I assume are your nature photos (from the link signature) - those are very nice.

bari_sax_diva
12-09-2010, 04:14 AM
Avan,

I have a Kenosha-built Vito Special that has a very dark, vintage-looking lacquer. It's worn off in a few places, but the color makes it hard to tell those places from the rest of the horn. Is yours like this?

http://leannepowers.com/vito/200131825_o.jpg

It's a great-playing horn, by the way.

eugeneherman
12-09-2010, 05:55 AM
I have an early Vito/Beaugnier alto that has no lacquer on most keywork and much of the body... Whatever brass alloy was used on the Beaugniers, they seem to exist on with 'no' lacquer required? 'We don't need no stinkin' lacquer!'

avan
12-09-2010, 02:44 PM
This one picture of it, I will try other. Yes mine look like yours and it seem that is a standard finish in the early vito. Thanks for your visit and comment about my nature picture (jeelee gallery) Yes! they are nature picture I take as a hobby. some start to be old now.

avan
12-09-2010, 02:56 PM
some detail serial number are 2628A. Age unknow. if you look at the inside bell detail picture, we can see the red spot, usualy this is a well advanced oxydation.

jicaino
12-09-2010, 05:24 PM
Avan,

I have a Kenosha-built Vito Special that has a very dark, vintage-looking lacquer. It's worn off in a few places, but the color makes it hard to tell those places from the rest of the horn. Is yours like this?

http://leannepowers.com/vito/200131825_o.jpg

It's a great-playing horn, by the way.

Tbis is one of those Buescher made tubes with Vito enhanced mechanism. I have a couple of them. They absolutelly kick butt. One of them looks like this from BSD and the other is earlier with the same mechanism but with wire guards.

JayePDX
12-19-2010, 04:22 AM
:shock: :!: Wait, wait, wait. Buescher-made body for Vito ?

Did I miss this somewhere ? I have never heard of that before. Juan, you are saying Buescher supplied the bodies for Kenosha Vitos ?

Can you (or anyone else) direct me towards info on this ?????

jicaino
12-20-2010, 04:03 PM
I'll check up "under the bench", I think I might have one vito and I surely have a couple of aristos. If you strip them down to the body you'll be certain that they're the same body. They haev the exact same measures and brass composition, that's for sure.

I have no proof of Buescher supplying vito with bodies, but we know of a gazillion of stenciling cases amongst every maker in the history of saxophone makers. And this two horns (late aristocrat, vito kenosha american made alto) are just the same horn. The Vito keyboard is way slicker and nice ergos than Buescher's (especially the pinky tables)

bari_sax_diva
12-20-2010, 04:16 PM
I was under the impression that this horn was built more like the Conn Conqueror. The LH pinky table on mine is much like the Conn, and the G# mechanism is my only real gripe about the horn--it's an absolute bear to work with.


some detail serial number are 2628A. Age unknow. if you look at the inside bell detail picture, we can see the red spot, usualy this is a well advanced oxydation.

I love the logo on the G# key on yours. Nice touch--they seemed to do stuff like that on a lot of these old Vito horns.

JayePDX
12-20-2010, 04:35 PM
I'll check up "under the bench", I think I might have one vito and I surely have a couple of aristos. If you strip them down to the body you'll be certain that they're the same body. They haev the exact same measures and brass composition, that's for sure.

I have no proof of Buescher supplying vito with bodies, but we know of a gazillion of stenciling cases amongst every maker in the history of saxophone makers. And this two horns (late aristocrat, vito kenosha american made alto) are just the same horn. The Vito keyboard is way slicker and nice ergos than Buescher's (especially the pinky tables)

Juan, can you please do that for us ? I mean, a serious, measured comparison. Bore diameters at various locations, tonehole placements, radius of the bow turn, bell profile......the whole works.

Possibly even some pics of the two bodies side by side ?

Because this would be very HUGE news, actually. There have been no sources uncovered/referenced to which indicate that Vito/LeBlanc Kenosha ever used non-LeBlanc supplied elements (at least none I have come across). I (as well as some other enthusiasts which have spent a good amount of time trying to unravel the Vito provenance) would really, really like to know. Given, in using a subcontractor; one would be NOT announce it; so it could be that documentation was nonexistent.

You see.....this would suggest that the specs of a Vito, France and a Vito, Kenosha are significantly different from one another; the evolutionary lineage having been stopped if an american supplier took over the bodies when the horn production moved to Kenosha....ergo, significantly different saxes......

(Thing is, you make your comment regarding the OP's photo of the left (bellkey) side. His Vito has the Bb, B, and C# holes in a line.
(BariDiva's Vito, on the other hand...has the C# on the right - so they were obviously 2 different Kenosha models).
I thought that Buescher Aristos and 20A's always had their C# holes on the right side ? That seems to have been a consistent feature in the ones I have seen....)

FremontSax
12-21-2010, 02:36 AM
well there have been hints to a vito and conn link before....

also... I have been contemplating the idea of small runs of saxophones such as sopranos and c melodies.

How would a shop justify the cost of the metal forms needed to shape and bend the bodies and bells if they were only making a few?

buy the forms used or have another shop make them?

jicaino
12-21-2010, 12:05 PM
Yeah, a photo session is in order.

the Left side of the bow horn is not entirely buescher. The bow and bell aren't. Take a look at the trim ring in the body/bow connection: it's screaming "Buescher Stencil". I suspect subcontracting and outsourcing at many levels.

Regarding Conn, this is not so. The Kenosha vito I quoted as "buescher stencil" on the BSD picture is indeed a Buescher body and I'll agree with freemontsax, the keywork is very similar in ergos and in function to that found on a 28M Conn alto. But not the bodies.

JayePDX
12-21-2010, 04:17 PM
This is interesting and runs contrary to the theory that all parts were imported from France and assembled in Kenosha. Fremont - Kenosha wouldn't have had to justify metal forms since it was, reputedly, an assembly plant only.

I cannot tell from these pics, really. I DID dig out a Kenosha Vito I have here...but I have no Bueschers to compare it to.

To test your theory further, Juan (BTW...I am not doubting, just really interested in seeing if this is true)...is the ferrule connection ring on these Kenosha horns different from the detail on the Vito, France horns ? Again, I have no clue because I don't have 'em here....

My inclination would be to actually buy a Buescher of similar vintage just to see...you practically cannot take a step w/o tripping over a '60's Buescher alto...but if you have some there, Juan, and would be willing to snap some pics and do the measurements...that would be a great, great favor to (those of) us (who happen to care about early Vitos !) :shock:

The Vito-Conn connection, per my understanding, was later...as a result of Conn buying the bankrupt Vito-Best facility in Nogales, usa. That's a bit of a different subject....

eugeneherman
12-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Hey, My Vito alto seems the same as these... R side C#, G# switch and three LH bell keys under a single guard... It is #3289A... One unusual detail... The bell engraving is the standard blocks within the oval, however the 'VITO' reads down to up! As holding the bell in your right hand and the bow in your left! PM me and I'll email you some pics I have...

eugeneherman
12-21-2010, 05:55 PM
I misspoke... had my France Mod 38 in my lap... IT has R side C#! Also as to ferrule types... I have... early Vito /K #3289A... 1968 Vito/K Mod 37... Vito Mod 35... Vito/France Mod 38... All four alto types have a 25mm length ferule with a 30 degree +- chamfer... each except Mod 35 have a 8mm wide tightening band, the Model 35 neck tenon diameter is 26mm, all other Vito alto necks I have or have seen are 25mm in diameter... I swap mine around, sound the same to me... But the Model 35 neck has a different length and extremely different pip location... BTW 'bell size' Models 35, 37 and maybe most Kenosha altos have a 5" bell lip... The French Model 38 alto has a 5 3/16" bell lip... Hoo hah!

JayePDX
12-22-2010, 12:36 AM
Hi. Thanks for that info. Have never seen a horn with the name engraved in a reverse fashion. That's interesting.

So, Eugene (....or Fremont)...Of the 2 different models pictured above...do either of you know what model BariDiva's is, and what model the OP's is ?

BTW - the ferrule I was referring to was the one which connects body tube to bow...not the neck ferrule. What JiC calls the "trim ring". Just wondering if those differed between the France horns and the Kenosha horns. (Although that may be a pointless road to take, since BariDiva's horn and the OP's horn are both Kenoshas yet have different bow/body ferrules/rings based on the pics above.....)

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 01:33 AM
The script engraved Vito altos seem to have 2 LH bell keys w/ RH C#1... These are the horns that could have Conn or Buescher tubes with Kenosha keywork, the switchable G# is a Beaugnier feature... Ferrules... early Kenosha alto w/G# switch has body ring 8mm w/ two outer beads, bell ring 10mm with two beads dividing into it thirds... 1968 Mod 37 alto w/no G# switch has body ring 8mm smooth, bell ring 10mm with two beads... French Mod 38 has body ring same as early Kenosha, bell ring same as early K and Mod 37... Model 35 has body ring and bell ring both 10mm smooth with no screws... Early K, Mod 37, Mod 38 all have 3 screws in body ring...

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 01:59 AM
From what I can deduce... The early Vito Beaugnier alto and tenor horns had no model designation other the 'alto' and 'tenor' as they were purely Beaugnier... I have a minty #329A Vito tenor that is identical to many Beaugnier pics I have seen, they have the teeter-totter octave mech and the switch G# key... I know of no other tenor type Vitos until the French Vito Mod 38... The Model 37 alto has NO teeter-totter octave and has a another Beaugnier LH pinky setup NOT with switch G#... The Model 38 has the teeter octave with the splayed LH pinky setup... Between Vitos, Noblets and other Conn/Vitos etc. there must be 8 or 10 or 14 alto types... Kim Slava at Doctor Sax has many types listed and pics... So... Vito alto variations are many... The Mod 37 is an updated replacement (intermediate?) for the early V/K altos it would appear...

FremontSax
12-22-2010, 02:44 AM
jayesf,

the op's sax is the same model as this one http://doctorsax.biz/vito_alto_5321A.htm

BariDeva's horn is like this one http://doctorsax.biz/vito_special_1047.htm

now labeling a vito sax with a particular model... well more work needs to be done on having a model number and a description.


model Type Description Brand Name bell keys LeBlanc System
100 Alto Leblanc left yes
120 Tenor Leblanc left yes
35 Alto Vito left yes
37 Alto Vito
38SC - Duke Curved Sop Vito
38S - Duke Straight Sop Vito
38 - Duke Alto Vito
38T - Duke Tenor Vito
38B - Duke Bari Vito
38BB - Duke Bass Vito
39 - Duke Special Alto Vito
39T - Duke Special Tenor Vito
39BA - Duke Special Baritone Low A Vito
39BB BASS Vito

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 03:00 AM
Another odd duck on the pond... This Vito/Noblet? alto appears to have a 'larger' bell lip diameter than the 5" standard... ??? http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-VITO-SAXOPHONE-NOBLET-PARIS-Mouthpiece-/270683093856?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f05f83b60#ht_5798wt_759 I cannot see the LH pinky setup... The Model 37 had 3 LH bell keys under one guard... I only know mine IS a Model 37 because it has a factory card with Model 37 and serial #10441A stamped...

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 03:03 AM
BTW, my Mod 38 alto #18095 has neither Duke nor Special engraved, only Vito on bell and 'Made in France' on tube back...

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 03:07 AM
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?149690-Sopranino-Vito-Sopranino-Leblanc&highlight=vito+sopranino This guy claimed to have a Vito 'Made in France' sopranino... ??? I would like to see it, I would love to play it!

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 03:22 AM
Also, Fremontsax, BariDeva's horn is NOT the same as the French alto you linked... Only to help confuse issues it seems, there were French Vito Special (Duke?) horns & Kenosha (script engraved) altos called Vito Specials... These are of several types... some very elaborate, some with silver or slick thumb hooks, engravings etc. that were NOT labeled 'Made in France'... So some 20+- variations for Vito altos between late 50's to early 70's??? +Stencils???

FremontSax
12-22-2010, 03:25 AM
Thanks Eugene....

So a Model 37 Alto has the three low keys on the left hand side under a single key guard.

My "Duke" Tenor has right hand bell keys and is stamped "Duke" just under the serial number 18666?. Some of the 6's are hard to discern.

FremontSax
12-22-2010, 03:29 AM
Also, Fremontsax, BariDeva's horn is NOT the same as the French alto you linked... Only to help confuse issues it seems, there were French Vito Special (Duke?) horns & Kenosha (script engraved) altos called Vito Specials... These are of several types... some very elaborate, some with silver or slick thumb hooks, engravings etc. that were NOT labeled 'Made in France'... So some 20+- variations for Vito altos between late 50's to early 70's??? +Stencils???

yes you are correct barideva's is a left hand bell and the one I pointed too is a right hand bell. my mistake.

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 03:29 AM
Yes, This alto is a Model 37... It s exactly as mine #10441A, this one is #9xxxA (same production period)... http://cgi.ebay.com/VITO-ALTO-SAXAPHONE-SAX-CASE-L-K-/170579326302?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b751f55e#ht_2524wt_991

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 03:37 AM
BTW, This eBay Vito looks very clean and pristine, at $113 right now... This horn is a very SWEET backup for any alto player... I love mine and will not part with any Vito I have... They just play too well... Intonation and altissimo are great... Under $200 is a steal... If no serious repairs needed, under $300 is a steal...

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 04:28 AM
This is a Model 37 that Kim Slava at Doctor Sax has for sale... http://doctorsax.biz/vito_alto_10484a.htm

bari_sax_diva
12-22-2010, 05:21 AM
Mine is a Vito "Special," but I don't know if that corresponds to a model #. But the variations ARE numerous.

I should get more detailed pics of mine and send them on to Kim. Most of the ones I have are pre-overhaul, and the horn is in MUCH nicer shape now.

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 05:35 AM
diva, I have never found reference to model types in Vito/K models... As I mentioned, having found a factory stamped card informed me that one alto I have is a Mod 37... This Vito clarification is a complicated sitch... For my own studies I have luckily acquired original condition Vitos (pads, resos, finish, cases )... I know that they all are nice players... One question... Are the the arms to pad cup attachments on your alto refined or 'rude'? My early Vito/Kenosha alto is a clunky and heavy tooled horn as compared to later Vitos and French Vitos...

bari_sax_diva
12-22-2010, 05:43 AM
Hi again,

eugeneherman, have a look in this folder: http://www.leannepowers.com/vito/

Edit: Just replaced old photos with new ones. The ones labeled "open" and "closed" were to show the clunky parts of the G# mechanism.

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 05:57 AM
diva, Good photos of 'refined' attachments to pad cups, BTW you could entirely remove the lever behind the G# key... just sayin'... My early Vito/K alto has all arms square cut off at their attachment to pad cups... A production protocol I'm sure...

JayePDX
12-22-2010, 06:10 AM
BTW - I have already run this thread by Kim...and I think he's out there stalking it a bit......:shock::TGNCHK:

JayePDX
12-22-2010, 06:18 AM
Hi again,

eugeneherman, have a look in this folder: http://www.leannepowers.com/vito/

My horn was an eBay find, and the numbered photos were taken by the seller. The ones with names were taken by me after I had the sax overhauled, and my goal was to get suggestions for the clunky G# mechanism. Like I said before, that's the only thing I dislike about the horn.

Yours was the horn which would become the Conn 50M. I suspect that means it was made at Art Best, Nogales...because it actually reads "Made in u.s.a.". While other Kenosha horns do not read that. But this horn is basically the same as the Conn 50M. Kim explains it here:

http://www.doctorsax.biz/vito_conn.htm

That is why I am pressing this question a bit. Juan, you feel that BariDiva's horn has a Buescher body tube....but it seems odd to me that Vito-Nogales/Best facility would employ a Buescher tube, as they were fully machined for bodies and indeed they were tweaking the Kenosha designs ...and (as I said before) the general belief is that the Kenosha horns were built from parts which were imported from France....

bari_sax_diva
12-22-2010, 06:22 AM
diva, Good photos of 'refined' attachments to pad cups, BTW you could entirely remove the lever behind the G# key... just sayin'... My early Vito/K alto has all arms square cut off at their attachment to pad cups... A production protocol I'm sure...

That's interesting... would love to take a look if you have time to get some pictures. Part of what I find intriguing about Vito saxes is the amount of variation you run into among them.

BTW, I decided mine deserved some post-restoration pictures, so I just put new ones up in the same folder.

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 06:23 AM
JayeSF, By my observance, the early Vito/K altos AND tenors had 'no' model numbers... They were Beaugnier models built for the U.S. market... Vito alto and Vito tenor... Until the late 60's no model numbers were used... THEN, Mod 37 (a new Beaugnier based 'alto' only), Mod 38 ( a Selmer competing full line model with splayed LH pinky w/ RH bell keys), Mod 35 (only alto) was a totally different horn overall...

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 06:27 AM
To restate... 2 tenor types of Vito... Beaugnier type and Model 38... 15? 20? alto types of Vito... This is the issue of clarification...

JayePDX
12-22-2010, 06:28 AM
Gotcha. So does that mean that BariDiva's horn has a model designation ?.....is what I am askin'.

I suppose....

The OP's is a very familiar Vito style horn. And you have identified it at the Model 37. Signature appearance, if you will...with those 3 bellholes covered by the same 'guard. So that is the 37.

The former, as I mentioned above, appears to be the Art Best instrument which became the Conn 50M. If it had no model name beyond Vito Special...well...there's an answer !

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 06:36 AM
diva, I just looked at the very cool looking restored pics of your alto... I'm sure it sounds great... But I see you have NO switchable G#... Whadda drag... It does make Bb1,B1 & C#1 tougher... Have your tech cut that G# bidness out... Or not!

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 06:40 AM
OK, I have 5 Vitos (some very nice examples) and I will get comparative photos for us to view soon... I am a practiced procrastinator and will attempt to forego my natural abilities as such...

JayePDX
12-22-2010, 06:43 AM
OK, I have 5 Vitos (some very nice examples) and I will get comparative photos for us to view soon... I am a practiced procrastinator and will attempt to forego my natural abilities as such...

Then I would imagine if you combine your photo collection with those horns of Fremont's.....that will cover all of the dozen models of Vito altos in existence !:cheers::fftheai:

bari_sax_diva
12-22-2010, 06:51 AM
diva, I just looked at the very cool looking restored pics of your alto... I'm sure it sounds great... But I see you have NO switchable G#... Whadda drag... It does make Bb1,B1 & C#1 tougher... Have your tech cut that G# bidness out... Or not!

Okay, so my understanding is that the "switchable" G# is something peculiar to horns that have the Leblanc keywork. Is that a Rationale thing? If so, what the heck does it DO?

For the record, I own another Kenosha Vito, #V-2673, that my tech had on his wall as a parts horn until I talked him out of it. If I can locate a neck I'll restore it, soo... anyone have such a creature? The keywork appears to be just like the Special, but the horn has more standard lacquer and a different tenon ring setup.

Oh, and when I restored the Special, I was looking for something different from my main alto so I had my tech put Noyek resos in it. Boy, does that horn project...I gave it a quick blow when I got it out a few minutes ago, and now I'm tossing around the idea of playing it on a gig I have Sunday.

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 06:57 AM
No telling how many Vito models (numbered or not) were produced... I suggest maybe 20 types (including Noblet, Vito, Conn, Selmer UK?, I saw an Armstrong with a Beaugnier LH pinky setup...) maybe 30 types... all ALTO variations... tenor variations are few... WHY did I ever start this interest in Beaugnier horns? Oh yeah... the Noblet 'Standard' tenor in high school and college, the Vito tenor I borrowed from my friend in college, the other Vito altos I played because I knew the name...

bari_sax_diva
12-22-2010, 07:02 AM
No telling how many Vito models (numbered or not) were produced... I suggest maybe 20 types (including Noblet, Vito, Conn, Selmer UK?, I saw an Armstrong with a Beaugnier LH pinky setup...) maybe 30 types... all ALTO variations... tenor variations are few... WHY did I ever start this interest in Beaugnier horns? Oh yeah... the Noblet 'Standard' tenor in high school and college, the Vito tenor I borrowed from my friend in college, the other Vito altos I played because I knew the name...

Since you've been sucked into this madness, let me bounce this off you: The parts horn has a neck tenon receiver just like this one: http://doctorsax.biz/vito_alto_v3300.htm

Do you suppose the neck was changed somehow to work with that receiver? If so, I might NEVER find a suitable replacement.

P.S. I'll post pics of my other horn if you will. :twisted:

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 07:23 AM
diva, I have several Vito alto necks... They came with several brace 'variations'... I am TIRED of typing that word... I have a Vito neck I would part with if it can work on the horn you have. Will your other Vito neck fit? My alto neck tenon measures approx 25mm diameter. And certainly I would like to show you 'mine'! UPDATE... My Model 37,38 AND Vito/K alto necks ARE different than the neck pictured in your link to Kim's photos as regarding pip location etc,etc... More study...

Mark Fleming
12-22-2010, 04:34 PM
This thread brings up something I've been thinking about. I recently bought a Gretsch Commander alto, generally thought to be a Beuscher Aristocrat stencil. I was curious to compare it which my Conn 6M stencil. As soon as I began to tear it down, I saw the Conn features. Post set screws tell me that this is a Conn, but it still has some Beuscher features. The real question for me is "what is the body tube." All this talk about keywork may not really identify the horn manufacturer or model.

So I started measuring. Looking at my other altos, it seems like there are several generic places where a caliper fits on most horns. Measurements should utlimately tell more about the horn's pedigree than the G# mechanism. If somebody knows if this has been done before, tell me. It seems like this would be a good idea for a spread sheet type of file.

My measurements.
A = inside neck opening.
B = outside neck tenon (good for people looking for replacement necks).
C = inside neck tenon.
D = immediately below neck ring on main body
E = center of side key C tone hole
F = center of F# tone hole
G = top of main tube to bow ring
H = top of bow to bell ring
I = mid-point between B and Bb on bell
J = width of the bell

The width of the bell is probably more cosmetic, but it might still identify models and manufacturers. Finally, it seems like two or three additional measurements would really help. By placing a tailor's tape, or even a piece of string, down the body tube, I can measure various points. The relationship of the tone holes should be a constant depending on the bore of the instrument. But a total measurement from the neck opening to the beginning of the Bb hole would further help identify the body tube. Using a piece of string, I put a knot at the neck end and send it though the instrument similar to sending the string on a swab, except the string exits at the Bb tone hole. The knot is pulled tight against the lip of the neck opening and the string is marked at the cusp of the tonehole where it exits the body tube. Two additional measurements (just the neck and just the body tube) might be interesting.

K = total instrument to Bb length
L = neck length (good for people looking for replacement necks)
M = body only length to Bb

This information may answer the constant questions like "who made the Kenosha Vito body tubes," "is my Weltklang an Amati," "is my XXX stencil an XXX?" Enquiring minds want to know.

Mark

JayePDX
12-22-2010, 09:50 PM
That is a great guide and I have copied it. I have done this with some horns (i.e. discovering that the original Olds Ambassador - Martin stencil used the exact same body as the Handcraft of the period).

Why the center of the toneholes, however ?

And in my comparisons, what I also did besides locating some random toneholes is take the outside tube diameter AT those particular holes as well.....

For lengths, I also used a string method but ran the string tight to the outside of the body tube (the backside or frontside of the tube...usually the back, since there's more surface there, punctuated by less fewer holes), taping it taut along the way to my destination and then marking the string with a pen. This works well on neck lengths, also.

(I would agree that using a keywork detail as a main determinant is likely not the best way to go in identifying the source of a horn.....it's not terrible, but there have to be more definitive specs than that).

eugeneherman
12-22-2010, 09:59 PM
Good ideas... I copied this chart as well and will spec my horns as convenient... Mark Fleming, will you start a thread log here so we can post/check/verify etc... I intend to weigh my saxes as well... Some folks complain about the 'heavy' Buffet horns and my Buffet SDA tenor seems light as a feather to me? Thanks for the chart Mark... BTW, I have a Yanny copy soprano, & I would enjoy spec-ing it against a true Yanagisawa sop...

FremontSax
12-23-2010, 03:21 AM
OK, I have 5 Vitos (some very nice examples) and I will get comparative photos for us to view soon... I am a practiced procrastinator and will attempt to forego my natural abilities as such...


Then I would imagine if you combine your photo collection with those horns of Fremont's.....that will cover all of the dozen models of Vito altos in existence !:cheers::fftheai:

I think my list needs expanding. I think it should include the Noblet and the Beaugnier models. As well as Vox and a couple of other stencil saxophone models.

But small steps are where to start so matching photos to known vito models are a great place to start.

Mark Fleming
12-23-2010, 07:12 PM
JayeSF,
I used the center of the tone hole because in some cases posts, keywork, guards, etc. made that the best spot. Whether I "eyeball" the top of the tone hole or the center didn't seem that important. I've been measuring with the keywork off, but that's not practical for somebody who just wants to know if their Conn tranny is a Chu tube or a 6M tube. With the horn stripped down, it's possible to use the depth probe on my calipers to get an accurate measure of the inside of the tube at the top of each and every tone hole, but that seemed a bit much. However, it the measuring points were tone holes D3, side Bb, and low C, those are three easy keys to remove and accurately measure tone hole depths.

A string down the neck/body tube sure seems easier than trying to go outside the tube. I have a large button on a piece of non-stretch twine (very high-tech). The button is too big to go down the neck tenon, so I drop the string through, measure my point by marking it with a Sharpie, and measure the twine on a yardstick. This also isn't perfectly accurate, but sufficient to show differences of a couple millimeters.

Where should a post with this type of info be on SOTW? Makes and Models (Sax v. Sax) or Tech (Manufacturing/Construction)? Should the measurements be metric or Caveman Standard (i.e., inches)? I just recently lost my Excel program (computer virus required an emergency reformat of my hard drive), so I've lost a bunch of info. It would be nice if there was a spreadsheet open to SOTW members for anyone to contribute to, however, my recent virus experience makes me think this could have problems.

As an example of what a szx measurement chart could show, here are the "I" measurements (mid-way between B/Bb) from a couple of altos.

Conn late-30's stencil = 61mm
Vito 35 "Leblanc system" = 62.4mm
1957 Kohlert "Revere Special" = 63.3mm

So, is the Conn a 6m tube? Does the Vito 35 have the same tube dimensions as the non-Leblanc system Beaugnier horns and/or the later Japanese Vitos? Is a 1957 Kohlert Revere the same tube as the Kohlert "Model 57"? More important to me right now is will any Beaugnier Vito neck fit my 35 (which has a dent on the neck)?

Mark

JayePDX
12-26-2010, 04:36 PM
Interesting, thanks.

I think either method of measurement (inside or out) gets you the info you want when doing a comparison. I guess I would say that I do outside because stretching a string and tacking it in place w/ tape as one proceeds down the body surface seems easier to me than the button-on-string interior method....

To answer the easy Q....MM...not inches. More accurate.

I have a 37 and a 35 (Vito) ...I will see if the necks are interchangeable and let you know (unless Fremont beats me to it). I have never tried.

I can say that it has been my experience that all Conn alto necks were interchangeable, from any hecka old stencil or Pan American all the way up to the 1970 7M (with the exception of the horrific 18M, which wasn't even made by Conn). I gotta applaud that...sure makes things easy for us folks trying to resuscitate old Conns. And it goes against the general rule, because a lotta other mfr's kept changing their neck specs as they went along so they aren't swappable....

But I digress....as this is a Vito thread.....

eugeneherman
12-28-2010, 02:23 AM
No, No... The 37 neck does not properly fit into a 35... The 35 neck tenon is 26mm+-, The 37, 38, early Vito/K alto necks (tenon is 25mm) will swap... The 35 neck has a different pip location, and overall build...

eugeneherman
12-29-2010, 08:23 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-French-Noblet-Alto-Saxophone-Re-Padded-/140494764064?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b623f820#ht_923wt_991 Another Beaugnier type alto... not a mod 38 ( different LH pinkie table ), almost a Vito/K type but with RH bell keys...

JayePDX
12-31-2010, 04:34 AM
That's really another twist there ! Usually w/ RH bellkeys on a Noblet, one sees the tilted/oval pinky table along with it. But this has a more standard Vito "Kenosha-esque" table !

Here's another one for ya':

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=370409218589&si=x6bVKvpdWQdQD6tlzjmmTkyazaI%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

Old-school wire/soldered bellbrace, made in France, yet much else about it looks damn close to the Kenosha horns which would become the Conn 50M.....

The factories of Beugnier/Vito musta been hella fun to work in !

"Hey, folks...on this one, let's use these keys with this body...... and Jules.....you get to pick the bellbrace today !"

eugeneherman
12-31-2010, 06:15 AM
Another Noblet alto 'twist'... RH bell keys but 'NO' switchable Beaugnier type LH pinkie table ( I haven't seen this type table before )... http://cgi.ebay.com/BEAUGNIER-PARIS-PRO-ALTO-SAXOPHONE-FRANCE-M-MPC-/170583085116?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b78b503c#ht_1027wt_1141

eugeneherman
01-02-2011, 04:47 AM
Here is a Kenosha alto with the 'wrong way' bell engraving as mine has... And the case I received my alto in is the same as well... So this odd engraving is not a one shot fluke but would appear to be a production type... http://cgi.ebay.com/Vito-Kenosha-Alto-Saxophone-/300510410906?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f7d0f89a#ht_7986wt_890 BTW, the previous Noblet alto link I posted would seem to be a Chinese copy? Who would build a faux 'Noblet' alto???

FremontSax
01-02-2011, 07:06 AM
Here is a Kenosha alto with the 'wrong way' bell engraving as mine has... And the case I received my alto in is the same as well... So this odd engraving is not a one shot fluke but would appear to be a production type... http://cgi.ebay.com/Vito-Kenosha-Alto-Saxophone-/300510410906?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f7d0f89a#ht_7986wt_890 BTW, the previous Noblet alto link I posted would seem to be a Chinese copy? Who would build a faux 'Noblet' alto???

Alto sax SN 3098A bell keys on left side, Single Bell Key Guard, no Vito on the neck so is this a Model 37?

eugeneherman
01-02-2011, 12:31 PM
The model 37 is not the same as an early Kenosha alto, The 37 has NO teeter-totter octave mechanism, the 37 has NO switchable G# key and the LH pinky table looks rather like a Martin LH table... I believe the 37 was an intermediate horn... Also my mod 37 DID have the Vito neck brace...

FremontSax
01-02-2011, 07:04 PM
Nevermind I had a lack of understanding about what a switchable G# was... see

http://www.doctorsax.biz/vito_tenor_4081A.htm

eugeneherman
01-04-2011, 01:49 AM
Ha! More Vitos for me... I just opted for a Vito mod 37 with no neck on eBay for $50... Since I have a spare neck, getting a nearly? playable Vito alto for this little is OK by me... Maybe 'this' one can go to my grandson...

meth
01-08-2011, 08:51 PM
Here is a Kenosha alto with the 'wrong way' bell engraving as mine has... And the case I received my alto in is the same as well... So this odd engraving is not a one shot fluke but would appear to be a production type... http://cgi.ebay.com/Vito-Kenosha-Alto-Saxophone-/300510410906?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f7d0f89a#ht_7986wt_890

I had a few others besides that one with the horizontal vito engraving, but physically they seemed to be almost identical to some of the later kenosha vitos, except for the neck braces, left hand thumb rests, and engravings. Maybe someone should start a rumor that the horizontal labeled vitos play way better than the vertical labeled vitos. :P

JayePDX
01-08-2011, 11:12 PM
There ya' go:

Ultra-rare and collectible...the reverse-engraved Vitos.

We won't mention that they were actually all done by an apprentice who misunderstood the instructions and subsequently got canned.....

eugeneherman
01-08-2011, 11:22 PM
Watch out for the Chinese copies! They say 'AITO'... The tell-tale flipped 'A' reverse engraved... dead give-away...

jicaino
01-23-2011, 01:02 PM
finally got around diggin the Vito Kenosha. here's a new thread I opened so we can carry on with the discussion and comparations here
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?152758-Buescher-Aristocrat-vs.-Vito-Kenosha-alto&p=1584433#post1584433

vanderpol
04-10-2011, 03:14 AM
Hello All,
Just joined: I have 7051A, left hand bells keys single cover but a teeter totter octave mechanism Alto.
Not a player yet, (I am halfway decent guitarist), but I got this horn thinking my daughter could use to learn on. Didn't happen that way so I am thinking of getting it in playable condition and giving it a whirl.

It is in nice cosmetic shape but I think some of the closed pads are a bit leaky. Can you guys publish a list of pad sizes and thicknesses that are correct for the Model 35ish horns?

Lou

FremontSax
04-13-2011, 03:47 PM
Hello All,
Just joined: I have 7051A, left hand bells keys single cover but a teeter totter octave mechanism Alto.
Not a player yet, (I am halfway decent guitarist), but I got this horn thinking my daughter could use to learn on. Didn't happen that way so I am thinking of getting it in playable condition and giving it a whirl.

It is in nice cosmetic shape but I think some of the closed pads are a bit leaky. Can you guys publish a list of pad sizes and thicknesses that are correct for the Model 35ish horns?

Lou

Alto?