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View Full Version : Selmer USA Model 164 and TS100 differences?



Fungus Mungus
10-28-2010, 09:11 PM
I'm trying to ferret out the real differences between these two models. I've had a few people tell me that the Model 164 started with SN 820xxx and ran through 825xxx and that there are a mix of 164s and TS100s in the 825xxx range. After that, it's TS100 up through 829xxx.

There were two styles of engraving in the models I've seen. The earlier serial numbers tend to have the ribbon-style engraving while the later ones tend to have the typical American flower engraving found on the Mark VI and early MVII. The really late models might even have engraving up the back of the body tube (I've only seen this on altos, but I hear that this option was available for tenors too).

There are those that say that the key work was slightly simplified and cheapened when the model was re-designated TS100. I'm having a problem with this as I have 2 tenors in front of me...an 821xxx, which clearly falls within the Model 164 SN range, and another one in the high 825xxx range. I examined both horns thoroughly and found absolutely NO differences in the keywork. None. The neck is the same. The tenon socket is no different. The key work looks absolutely identical between the horns. All the ribs that the posts are attached to are the same. The only differences I could see were the color of the lacquer (early=dark, later=ligher) and the engraving (the early one had the ribbon engraving, the later had the more elaborate American Selmer flower engraving).

I've never had two altos in similar serial number ranges that I could compare like this...I'm wondering if there was a difference between the AS100 and the Model 162? Or is this all a bunch of hoo-hah like I suspect?

I'd love to hear from people that have compared the two, or can perhaps up some pics that we might use to compare them.

fm

vsj725
11-03-2010, 04:52 AM
I'd like to know the answer to this as well. The only thing that I know of that changed on those models was the high F# key. I believe on the very early models it was a brass bar and soon after the horn was introduced, it changed to a pearl-inlayed oval. I don't know if that change corresponds to the switch from a model 164 to the TS-100 or not, but it happened very early in the serial numbers.

Fungus Mungus
11-03-2010, 09:01 PM
Any pics of the high F# bar? I've never seen this on any Omega I've had. I've also heard that the front F changed from a pearl to a teardrop key, but I've never seen this either.

fm

vsj725
11-03-2010, 10:27 PM
I think I recall seeing a picture of one for sale that had the high F# bar, but I'm not sure. My 162 alto has the bar. It's serial #8206xx. I can post a pic of it when I get a chance.

tflanster
11-11-2010, 06:20 PM
Any pics of the high F# bar? I've never seen this on any Omega I've had. I've also heard that the front F changed from a pearl to a teardrop key, but I've never seen this either.

fm

I just bought a pristine, used Selmer USA tenor, s/n 1150xxx. It has a metal, oval shaped high F# touch key, and a metal teardrop shaped front F# key. No pearls on either one. Gold lacquer body and keys, Selmer USA on the bell. Curved bottom Bb key, curved G# key. No engraving on the bell other than name and model. I've spent hours online searching for info about this horn. Best I've come up with is it was built early '90, '91. Its the seldom found "closet horn." The guy I got it from (less than $400, BTW), played it two semesters in high school and put it away. Not a mark on it other than the neck support bar looks to have been re-soldered - and a nice job, too. The only thing I don't like about it is the high F# key is about the same height as the side Bb key. Play Bb and barely touch the F# with a knuckle and oops! Squeaks and silence. So I have to lift the right hand and hit Bb with the side of the big knuckle of the forefinger.

I came up with a way to raise the side Bb a little without damaging the finish. About an inch of Radio Shack heat shrink material slid over half a toothpick is perfect. Raises the Bb about 1/16" higher than the F# and eliminates the inadvertent touching of the F#. Not elegant but its cheap and it works.

davevillajr
11-12-2010, 01:29 AM
I've got out my 1986 Selmer Saxophones brochure, and my 1994 (?) Selmer Great Names In Music Saxophone brochure, and my 1997 (?) Selmer Great Names in Music Saxophone brochure. I'm not seeing any real visual clues in the pictures in them. In both of the '90's catalogs, the TS100 horns look identical - visually similar to the Paris VI and VII. The 164 in the '86 catalog also has the same visual and mechanical cues - small petal right hand pinkies, oval pearl high F#, round pearl side F# and round pearl front F. Big visual differences appear to be color hue of the lacquer - darker on the 164, yellower on the TS100, and the engraving - curlicues on the 164, leafy floral on the 100.

The 162 alto and AS100 alto have the same differences as the TS and 164. The AS110 though has a solid "bent-bar" high F# key and the teardrop front F key. The AS110 is also "laser engraved" in a vine-y pattern as opposed to the leafy pattern of the AS100. I think the AS110 also had higher palm keys, but it's been a while since I've handled one.

dv

vsj725
12-05-2010, 08:18 AM
Let's see if this works...

Here's a pic of my alto with the high F# bar. I bought it new in the summer of 1983. http://s1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/?action=view&current=Selmer_162.jpg

I'd love to see people post pics of their 80's and 90's Selmer USA horns with serial numbers so we can start compiling info on how these horns evolved.

soybean
12-05-2010, 10:23 PM
You photo didn't seem to work. I have the best luck by adding my pictures to Photobucket first (free) and then putting the links they give you here.

tflanster
12-08-2010, 02:18 AM
[QUOTE=.
I've never had two altos in similar serial number ranges that I could compare like this...I'm wondering if there was a difference between the AS100 and the Model 162? Or is this all a bunch of hoo-hah like I suspect?

I'd love to hear from people that have compared the two, or can perhaps up some pics that we might use to compare them.

fm[/QUOTE]

I posted some info on the USA I bought earlier. Now, here's some better info I got from "Allexperts" on the web. My USA tenor has a brass "teardrop" side F# and a flat plate brass high F#. So mine is, according to this info, from the late '80's to early '90's. The guy I got it from said his parents bought it in about '89 as he recalls, cuz that's when he was in high school band. No matter though, the horn plays great. There are a couple things I'm not crazy about though; the high F# touch is about the same height as the side Bb. It's easy to hit it when going for Bb. I made a "riser" for the Bb from some clear plastic tubing which raises the Bb no more than 1/32", which is perfect ( first tried heat shrink tubing with toothpicks shoved under it but the clear plastic is thicker.) The other thing of some concern is middle, or octave, D, which seems "muddy". There are no leaks I can find with a leak light and the pads are all o.k. I'm guessing its technique plus reed plus mpc.

But - here's the response from the "expert."

Hello TFlanster, Thanks for the great question. You have a Selmer USA. The Selmer(USA) Omega line of alto and tenor saxophones were superb professional instruments rivaling the Selmer(Paris) line. They have distinctly full bell engraving and may or may not say "Omega" on them, these are late 1970's and early 1980's models. Later Omega horns have less bell engraving and are not as desirable for Selmer USA horns, though they are excellent intermediate horns. Key indicators are the neck. If the neck support is a think 'beam' type it is the later model. If it is the type similar to Paris horns it is the desirable model; also the engraving is much more extensive on the earlier models. Anything with model number including MG is not their earlier pro horn..From the early 1980s until approximately 2001 Selmer USA made their top-of-the-line saxes in Elkhart, Indiana. the The Model 162 Omega alto sax was the first model introduced. The Model 164 was the first tenor introduced around serial number 823000 (notice the lack of the "Omega" title. The model designation was changed to either TS100 or TS-100 when it was realized that professional players were not buying this "pro" line. The TS100 used a different numbering sequence starting with 1xxxxxx (1 million +). In the early 80s, the serial numbers were around... 828xx tenor, then in the late 80's/early 90s, 820011 - 1288792 alto and tenor, This is what you have. The early saxes had a dark lacquer and many Selmer Paris mk VI key-work styling. Later horns had brighter lacquer reminiscent of the Paris Selmer Super Action 80 and late mk VIIs. Earlier horns had a brass high F#, later models had a pearl high F#. Your tenor was made in the late 80's early 90's. It's a great sax, perfect for the seasoned professional player. Play this horn proud! It's not a Selmer Paris but it's still the USA version of the Paris Selmer. I bet it plays great! Have fun!

vsj725
12-10-2010, 06:58 AM
Your photo didn't seem to work. I have the best luck by adding my pictures to Photobucket first (free) and then putting the links they give you here.

Weird... When I click on the link they provide and paste it here, it's the same as the one I posted. Does the link work for anyone?
http://s1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/?action=view&current=Selmer_162.jpg

vsj725
12-10-2010, 07:21 AM
But - here's the response from the "expert."

Hello TFlanster, Thanks for the great question. You have a Selmer USA. The Selmer(USA) Omega line of alto and tenor saxophones were superb professional instruments rivaling the Selmer(Paris) line. They have distinctly full bell engraving and may or may not say "Omega" on them, these are late 1970's and early 1980's models.
...[cut]

In the early 80s, the serial numbers were around... 828xx tenor, then in the late 80's/early 90s, 820011 - 1288792 alto and tenor,
...[cut]


I think these two statements are wrong. The first statement is misleading. I don't believe any of the 1980-1990s Selmer USA pro horns ever had 'Omega' anywhere on them. They simply have USA on the bells.

The second statement seems to imply that the late 80s Omega horns had serial numbers as low as 820011. I'm sure that Selmer didn't backtrack on their serial numbers and start in the 828xxx range then regress to the 820xxx range. I know that I bought my alto in the summer of 1983 and my serial number is 820684. By the late 80s early 90s the numbers were probably closer to the 830xxx range. A few months ago, I bought a tenor that was advertised as a TS-100. It has a serial number in the high 828xxx range.

soybean
12-10-2010, 08:29 AM
Now the link works to your photos. Thanks. That is real early one… the first time I've seen one of the "bar" F3 keys.


I don't believe any of the 1980-1990s Selmer USA pro horns ever had 'Omega' anywhere on them.…He may have been referring the later Omegas (not made in USA or France) which do have Omega engraved.


…I know that I bought my alto in the summer of 1983 and my serial number is 820684.Right, but is it possible your horn was made a few years earlier and sat at the dealer's?

tflanster
12-10-2010, 06:58 PM
I think these two statements are wrong. The first statement is misleading. I don't believe any of the 1980-1990s Selmer USA pro horns ever had 'Omega' anywhere on them. They simply have USA on the bells.

The second statement seems to imply that the late 80s Omega horns had serial numbers as low as 820011. I'm sure that Selmer didn't backtrack on their serial numbers and start in the 828xxx range then regress to the 820xxx range. I know that I bought my alto in the summer of 1983 and my serial number is 820684. By the late 80s early 90s the numbers were probably closer to the 830xxx range. A few months ago, I bought a tenor that was advertised as a TS-100. It has a serial number in the high 828xxx range.

I ain't arguing but - the "expert" says "may or may not" have Omega engraved on them - he never said Omega was engraved. And regarding the second statement argument, how can you know what Selmer did re; numbering? When I called them I got pretty much the same info the "expert" provided. So who to believe? I'm with Selmer and the "expert."

That's the problem with this entire thread - we don't know, so we guess, we disagree, we opine. Rather than do that, I checked every s/n site I could find to learn what my #124xxxx tenor is. Every place I found any info stated my tenor was built in Elkhart in '88 - '90. That makes sense to me because the guy I got it from had the original paperwork that came with the horn. Paperwork printed 11/87 (I have the document.) His parents bought the horn for him when he was in band in '89 and '90, so it can't possibly have been built after '90.

You're saying "seems to imply" and "I'm sure that . . . " and you're essentially disagreeing with what the "expert" sent me. That's o.k. with me. Everyone's entitled to opinion and I respect yours. I'm satisfied with what I learned about my horn. Hope you get some info that satisfies you.

soybean
12-10-2010, 10:04 PM
There is something very interesting I found posted by enviroguy. This was a while ago and seems to have been ignored. If true, this information could really help date the Selmer model 162/164 (Omega series I).

quote:

Joe Hillomni:
Bought a used Selmer tenor with Serial Number 827572. I would like to know what model it is. Went to selmer website and this one is newer than their lists that stops about 1992. It has not been taken care of very well, but man does it play nice!

enviroguy:
For a long time, the Selmer USA serial number list was just a continuation of the Buescher serial numbers. Based on the Buescher list, that serial number dates this sax to 1981 or 1982.


This information brings up the question: Were the Omega/162 saxes made by Buescher?

tflanster
12-11-2010, 01:35 AM
If ever there existed a confusing, misleading, lousy mfr information subject, this is it! Mfr's should state "Serial Numbers Don't Count" in their literature. Buescher to Selmer to Conn to Martin to whatever. Damndest thing I ever did see. I'm into golf club repair and custom fitting. Serial numbers on clubs from most major mfr's are the same as sax s/n's. Useless. I also like handguns - now there you can find valid info. Uncle Sam and ATF require stringent paper trails regardless of the price of the weapon. But an $8000.00 used sax? Forget it! Its nuts.

soybean
12-11-2010, 06:34 PM
Well, you're right it is confusing. But, there is a hell of a lot more money in making guns than there is in saxophones so there is more incentive to be accurate. Also, manufacturers use serial numbers for their internal accounting and inventory… not for us sax nerds. The serial numbers only has to make sense to the company itself.

tflanster
12-11-2010, 06:54 PM
Well, you're right it is confusing. But, there is a hell of a lot more money in making guns than there is in saxophones so there is more incentive to be accurate. Also, manufacturers use serial numbers for their internal accounting and inventory… not for us sax nerds. The serial numbers only has to make sense to the company itself.


You may be right re; what s/n's are for but more money in guns? I doubt it when virtually every grammar, junior and high school has a band, and colleges across the country have bands, I'd guess that the music instrument business doing a lot better financially that say, Smith&Wesson, Colt's, and myriad others. Now, I'm not talking about cannons and machine guns cuz the various army's of the world have a lock on those - but then, they have bands, too.

Ah well, this is clearly off-topic but it is fun to speculate. I'll stick with my weapons of choice; Selmer USA tenor and Cleveland Launcher driver.

vsj725
12-17-2010, 02:13 AM
Right, but is it possible your horn was made a few years earlier and sat at the dealer's?

I don't really know. The guy that owned the shop where I bought it talked the horn up like it was a brand new offering from Selmer. I was fresh out of high school and trading in my Bundy that I'd played since 5th grade. I had no idea how to judge a horn. Honestly, he could have sold me anything in his shop... I think I really lucked out. It's been an outstanding horn for the last 27 years. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

vsj725
12-17-2010, 02:24 AM
I ain't arguing but - the "expert" says "may or may not" have Omega engraved on them - he never said Omega was engraved. And regarding the second statement argument, how can you know what Selmer did re; numbering? When I called them I got pretty much the same info the "expert" provided. So who to believe? I'm with Selmer and the "expert."

That's the problem with this entire thread - we don't know, so we guess, we disagree, we opine. Rather than do that, I checked every s/n site I could find to learn what my #124xxxx tenor is. Every place I found any info stated my tenor was built in Elkhart in '88 - '90. That makes sense to me because the guy I got it from had the original paperwork that came with the horn. Paperwork printed 11/87 (I have the document.) His parents bought the horn for him when he was in band in '89 and '90, so it can't possibly have been built after '90.

You're saying "seems to imply" and "I'm sure that . . . " and you're essentially disagreeing with what the "expert" sent me. That's o.k. with me. Everyone's entitled to opinion and I respect yours. I'm satisfied with what I learned about my horn. Hope you get some info that satisfies you.

I'm not arguing at all. Everything I've posted is speculation based on my experience and research mostly done on these forums. I'm absolutely sure that 'Omega' is not engraved anywhere on the 80's/90's Selmer USA pro horns. Serial numbers, on the other hand, I'm not confident at all about. I know the serial number on my Omega alto that I bought in 1983 is 820684 and the serial number on my TS100 tenor that I bought used (obviously) a few months ago is in the 828xxx range. We can assume the alto was manufactured in the early 80s since I bought it new. I have no idea when the tenor was manufactured but I can guess that it was at least before the early 90s.

Either way, I love both horns! :)

1saxman
12-23-2010, 01:36 AM
I ain't arguing but - the "expert" says "may or may not" have Omega engraved on them - he never said Omega was engraved. And regarding the second statement argument, how can you know what Selmer did re; numbering? When I called them I got pretty much the same info the "expert" provided. So who to believe? I'm with Selmer and the "expert."

That's the problem with this entire thread - we don't know, so we guess, we disagree, we opine. Rather than do that, I checked every s/n site I could find to learn what my #124xxxx tenor is. Every place I found any info stated my tenor was built in Elkhart in '88 - '90. That makes sense to me because the guy I got it from had the original paperwork that came with the horn. Paperwork printed 11/87 (I have the document.) His parents bought the horn for him when he was in band in '89 and '90, so it can't possibly have been built after '90.

You're saying "seems to imply" and "I'm sure that . . . " and you're essentially disagreeing with what the "expert" sent me. That's o.k. with me. Everyone's entitled to opinion and I respect yours. I'm satisfied with what I learned about my horn. Hope you get some info that satisfies you.

I can tell you for sure that the sax you're describing is not a #164 or TS100. It's most likely a student model, maybe a 1244. The 'expert' is full of crap. No USA pro-line had a metal (no pearl) side F# or neck brace.

1saxman
12-23-2010, 01:42 AM
I'm trying to ferret out the real differences between these two models. I've had a few people tell me that the Model 164 started with SN 820xxx and ran through 825xxx and that there are a mix of 164s and TS100s in the 825xxx range. After that, it's TS100 up through 829xxx.

There were two styles of engraving in the models I've seen. The earlier serial numbers tend to have the ribbon-style engraving while the later ones tend to have the typical American flower engraving found on the Mark VI and early MVII. The really late models might even have engraving up the back of the body tube (I've only seen this on altos, but I hear that this option was available for tenors too).

There are those that say that the key work was slightly simplified and cheapened when the model was re-designated TS100. I'm having a problem with this as I have 2 tenors in front of me...an 821xxx, which clearly falls within the Model 164 SN range, and another one in the high 825xxx range. I examined both horns thoroughly and found absolutely NO differences in the keywork. None. The neck is the same. The tenon socket is no different. The key work looks absolutely identical between the horns. All the ribs that the posts are attached to are the same. The only differences I could see were the color of the lacquer (early=dark, later=ligher) and the engraving (the early one had the ribbon engraving, the later had the more elaborate American Selmer flower engraving).

I've never had two altos in similar serial number ranges that I could compare like this...I'm wondering if there was a difference between the AS100 and the Model 162? Or is this all a bunch of hoo-hah like I suspect?

I'd love to hear from people that have compared the two, or can perhaps up some pics that we might use to compare them.

fm

No difference in the 821xxx and 825xxx because they're the same horn. About the time they started using the 'Super 80' clear lacquer and had changed to the 1,xxx,xxx serial numbers, they also were using Super 80-type larger RH pinky keys and a tear-drop hi F#. These are what I call the AS and TS100 series. About this time they gave up on the 'pro' angle and began to have great succes marketing them as 'intermediate' horns.

1saxman
12-23-2010, 01:44 AM
'Were the Omega/162 saxes made by Buescher?'

No. I've got to hand it to you morons, this thread has brought out more misinformation than any I've seen before. Is there no end to it?

soybean
12-23-2010, 08:14 PM
I thought it was an interesting question, since Selmer bought Buescher around the same time as the Omega came out. It occurred to me that Buescher designers or builders were possibly working for Selmer during this time. They also had a reputation for making great altos including the Big B and True Tone. If it is a moronic idea, how do you explain the continuity of Buescher serial numbers?

tflanster
12-28-2010, 08:38 PM
I can tell you for sure that the sax you're describing is not a #164 or TS100. It's most likely a student model, maybe a 1244. The 'expert' is full of crap. No USA pro-line had a metal (no pearl) side F# or neck brace.

[COLOR="blue"You're correct in saying my horn's not a 164 or TS100. But you're incorrect in a couple other statements. The 1244 horn has 1244 engraved/stamped under the Selmer name. Mine is engraved Selmer USA. The 1244 has nickel-plated keys and rods. My horn is all brass/gold, no nickel plating anywhere. If you search far and wide for pics of Selmer USA horns you will find that in some years, they were manufactured with high F# "bar" side keys that are without pearls, and side F# keys that are teardrops without pearls. In fact I think there are a couple of "pro" altos shown here on the site with exactly those photos.

I'm not saying nor have I ever said my USA is a "pro level" horn. But for sure it ain't a 1244. I'd guess I spent 2 - 3 hours searching for info on the horn on-line and on phone calls to Selmer. The answers I got pretty much show that this particular model is what's often referred to as an "intermediate" instrument - whatever that means.

But, maybe you could help me and others out here; where did you find the info about my Selmer USA tenor sax? Is there a site or a company I missed? So far I've tried google, Bing and Yahoo search engines, Ask.com, Ask The Experts.com, Conn-Selmer.com and on the phone with them, FactCheck.com, All About Saxophone.com, and about a half-dozen others. I also took it to a local repair shop for them to check it out. They too agreed with Conn-Selmer customer service and Ask the Experts, that the horn's a 1989/'90 build, and they agreed about the high and side F# key appearance as common to that horn. At no time did "Model 1244, T100" or any other description appear in my posts or in their opinion of the instrument model. It is as described.

However, all that aside, this horn plays as well as any "pro" model I've ever played. In the end, that's really all that matters, isn't it?[/COLOR]

vsj725
01-02-2011, 05:06 AM
I can tell you for sure that the sax you're describing is not a #164 or TS100. It's most likely a student model, maybe a 1244. The 'expert' is full of crap. No USA pro-line had a metal (no pearl) side F# or neck brace.

If this comment is just about the Selmer USA pro tenor horns, then I believe you. If you are including the model 162 altos, then you're flat out wrong about the USA pro-line horns never having a metal (no pearl) side F#. I posted a pic of mine earlier in this thread.
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/Selmer_162.jpg
That's clearly a metal bar F#. You can scroll up and see my serial number. I bought the horn brand new in the summer of 1983. The earliest models of these horns had a metal bar and not the oval pearl side F# key.

tflanster
01-02-2011, 08:09 PM
If this comment is just about the Selmer USA pro tenor horns, then I believe you. If you are including the model 162 altos, then you're flat out wrong about the USA pro-line horns never having a metal (no pearl) side F#. I posted a pic of mine earlier in this thread.
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/Selmer_162.jpg
That's clearly a metal bar F#. You can scroll up and see my serial number. I bought the horn brand new in the summer of 1983. The earliest models of these horns had a metal bar and not the oval pearl side F# key.

That's the exact same metal bar high F# that's on my USA tenor.

Fungus Mungus
01-04-2011, 08:29 AM
My my, look what I've stirred up! :)

So, I've learned a little more, mainly by looking at more horns. Based on the horns I've seen, here's what I'm guessing:

Very early Model 162 altos had a metal bar side F#...vsj725's pic is proof of this. I've heard this from other people, but discounted it. His (or her?) posting of a pic is what finally made me believe this.

Model 162 altos and 164 tenors had the ribbon style engraving that was fairly modest. Nothing like the American engraving found on American Mark VI models. I've seen this style of engraving from serials 821xxx up to 823xxx. These also had darker gold lacquer coatings.

Somewhere between 823xxx and 825xxx, Selmer redesignated these horns as AS100/TS100. I've heard someone claim that there was a mix of horns designated as 162/164 and AS/TS100 in this serial number range. I've seen horns in this range with both DARK gold lacquer and clear S80-style lacquer, as well as both ribbon and classic American Selmer engraving (with the typical flower adorning the back of the bell). I even have an alto in the 823xxx range that has BOTH the ribbon style engraving AND the American Selmer floral engraving on the back of the bell. I assume this might be some kind of "transitional' engraving style where they started to step up the engraving to make it look more like a pro horn.

For 825xx-830xxx ranges, Selmer stepped up the engraving and applied the same engraving (sometimes a little simplified) that was used on the Mark VI and early Mark VI American engraved models. This engraving typically extended all the way to the bow, but on altos, there are examples where the engraving extended all the way up the back of the body tube of the horn. I've only seen this in the 829xxx range. For the most part, the lacquer had changed from dark gold to the clear S80 style lacquer. The latest model I've seen was 830xxx in a tenor. Light lacquer, amazing engraving, and IDENTICAL to the horns dubbed "Model 164".

What I was trying to figure out was, is there a mechanical difference between a Model 162/164 from the 821xxx serial number range and an AS/TS100 from the 829xxx serial number range? From all of the horns I've looked at (over 20 so far), my observation tells me NO, there is no appreciable difference between the horns. The bore, neck, and key work look identical.

I say this because I've been hassled by a self-appointed "expert" that claims that Selmer "cheapened" the Selmer USA line when they changed the 162/164 line to AS/TS100. I can find absolutely no evidence supporting this claim. Once the serial numbers went to 1,xxx,xxx, there were definitely differences (neck brace, keywork changed, etc). But from the horns I've seen over the whole gamut of the Selmer USA "Pro" line, I could see no differences.

I have pics to back this all up, but it's almost 12:30am and I need to get some sleep before I wake up again at 5:30.

fm

soybean
01-04-2011, 09:34 AM
Thanks for writing this. Very interesting stuff. So as far as you can tell, the body tube and tonehole placement is the same on all the horns?

Fungus Mungus
01-04-2011, 10:51 PM
Yes, as far as I can tell, tone hole placement and the body tube is the same.

If you think about it, just the fact that they added much nicer engraving mimicking the MK VI of the past tells you the Selmer considered the 8xx,xxx horns "pro" horns to the very end. The engraving started off as very modest with the early Omegas, with just a little ribbon filigree on the front of the bell above the Selmer USA engraving. As the serial numbers went up, the engraving became more and more elaborate. If they were going to cheapen the horn by simplifying the key work or use cheaper materials, why would they step up the engraving? And why on earth would they offer full body engraving as an option on SN 829xxx horns (dubbed "intermediate" models by so-called experts)? It just doesn't make sense. It is more likely that Selmer was desperately trying to make this pro model more attractive to budget-minded horn players.

I think people people that claim that the AS/TS100 series horns are somehow "lesser" horns than the 162/164 horns are confusing them with the 1,xxx,xxx horns, or perhaps even the AS110/TS110 horns, which really are more of an intermediate horn (they did transition to simpler key work and cheaper materials). That would have been around the time that Selmer decided that pros were still buying Selmer Paris and gave up on the Selmer USA as a pro horn line.

fm

kanne
01-08-2011, 10:56 AM
does anybody know the outer diameter of the neck tenon of 82XXXX tenor saxophones? Will modern Selmer Paris neck fit on these? I have a late Mark VI neck (diameter: 27,49mm) and am thinking about buying a Omega tenor as backup for my Mark VI as the keywork of the Omega look very simular to the Mark VI.
Any advice would be great. Thanks.

Fungus Mungus
01-08-2011, 06:53 PM
I've got one at home I'll measure and get back to you.

fm

kanne
01-08-2011, 10:31 PM
Fungus Mungus, this would be fine.
Thanks a lot.

Fungus Mungus
01-10-2011, 08:15 AM
Measured...for those that are interested, the neck tenon had an OD of 27.5mm.

fm

soybean
01-10-2011, 08:48 AM
thinking about buying a Omega tenor as backup for my Mark VI as the keywork of the Omega look very simular…They look similar, but they do not feel the same- at least the altos don't. I have a mk VI and an model 162 Omega. The VI is a bit more comfortable for me. I recommend playing one before you buy.

kanne
01-10-2011, 10:29 AM
soybean, thanks for the advice.
Unfortunately the Selmer USA saxophones are very rare here in Germany. There is no way for me to play one before. So I have just bought the saxophone for a good price so there is no problem to take a chance.

soybean
01-10-2011, 10:08 PM
Good price is always good. Please post a review after you have owned it for a while. I'm curious about the tenors.

kanne
01-16-2011, 06:40 PM
I have just bought a Selmer USA Omega from a SOTW member and got it the day before yesterday.
First, my Selmer Mark VI neck fits perfectly on this instrument. Thanks Fungus Mungus to measure the neck tenon of your Omegas.
I bought the Selmer USA as a backup for my Mark VI. I tried and bought many instruments the last years to find a good and "Mark VI like" backup for my rock´n´roll gigs. So I had 3 Selmer SA80I, 1 Selmer SA80II, 2 Guardala New York, 1 B&S Medusa, 1 B&S Blue label and 1 Yamaha YTS52.
There are some small differences to my Mark VI regarding the keywork. The front F key is a little bit lower, the low C key and the G# cluster smaller but overall to me it feels more like my Mark VI as all other Tenors I tried. After playing the Selmer USA the last two days I can say that these instruments are very underrated and less expensive than most of the other Tenors I tried.

soybean
01-16-2011, 07:09 PM
Are you preferring the original neck or your VI neck? On the Omega alto, I tried my mark VI neck but did not like it as much as the original Selmer USA neck. The USA neck had more power.

kanne
01-17-2011, 08:41 AM
I prefer the Mark VI neck on the Selmer USA as it has a lower arc and so a different playing position.
Besides, the USA neck is brighter and less centered than the Mark VI neck.

TheChristianSax
02-10-2011, 10:10 PM
FWIW, my model 164 tenor, serial #823xxx has the simple floral ribbon and no other engraving other than Selmer USA, pearl F# key, pearl front F key and dark lacquer. It was purchased in 1985 from a local music store by my friends father (I was there that day) and had hung on the wall as a display model for at least a year. After he gave it up and let it sit in his closet for years, he gave it to me. It is a wonderful horn, that has a comfortable feel and a great sound. After owning a Yamaha for years, it was immediately noticible that it was a much better horn than my intermediate Yamaha. I would love to get a model 162 alto for a backup to my SDA.

saxjd
02-20-2011, 02:06 AM
The following found in a 1990 Notre Dame College Jazz Festival program.

http://archives.nd.edu/ndcjf/dcjf1990.pdf

Page 21 is a color ad for the Model 164

soybean
02-20-2011, 07:58 AM
That's fun to see!

saxjd
02-20-2011, 11:50 AM
I don't know what these horns sold for when new but Weinermusic has a "new" early model TS100 for sale on ebay at a buy it now price of $3000.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Selmer-Pro-USA-Hand-Engraved-Tenor-Saxophone-TS100-/250423539270?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a4e67f646

soybean
02-22-2011, 07:44 AM
Hmmm… that engraving looks weird. I'm talking about the box around "U.S.A." on the bell. it looks like a mistake that was covered up or possibly something done after the horn left the factory. It would be interesting to know the serial on this one.

Fungus Mungus
02-22-2011, 07:31 PM
saxjd, thanks for the pic! I didn't realize Bill Evans advertised these. Interesting that the Model 164 ad was included in a 1990 program. These supposedly were renamed TS100 around 1988. Could be they used an old brochure...but I dunno.

The engraving looks like it's a little more substantial on Bill's horn than the standard 164...could be a transitional model that had both engraving styles (at around 823xxx, these horns had both the ribbon filigree and the American Selmer rose.

fm

vsj725
02-22-2011, 10:28 PM
I don't know what these horns sold for when new but Weinermusic has a "new" early model TS100 for sale on ebay at a buy it now price of $3000.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Selmer-Pro-USA-Hand-Engraved-Tenor-Saxophone-TS100-/250423539270?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a4e67f646

That horn has been on ebay for $3000 for at *least* nine months. I saw it when I was shopping for a tenor. It looks like someone has taken an engraving tool and added that box around the USA. I'm not sure whether the seller actually has that horn for sale or they are just being stubborn and trying to sell a $2000 horn for $3000 and not getting any bites.

bassicgruv102
02-23-2011, 04:44 PM
I asked about the S/N.

They replied --. S/N 82975X

They have received 11 offers on the horn. Looks like they are going to hang on for their full price.

To me it seems about double the correct price for a NOS horn.

soybean
02-24-2011, 12:59 AM
I asked about the S/N. They replied- S/N 82975XThen maybe it is a TS110, not a TS100.

I looked at the engraving again. It still looks fishy. The 'U' of the USA is uneven and sloppy. The R in circle (registered) also looks amateur. It's hard to believe Selmer would let a horn out of the factory with engraving like that.

TheChristianSax
02-24-2011, 08:00 PM
Hmmm… that engraving looks weird. I'm talking about the box around "U.S.A." on the bell. it looks like a mistake that was covered up or possibly something done after the horn left the factory. It would be interesting to know the serial on this one.

That engraving does look weird!! The box isn't even at all. I have ordered reeds from them before and been very satisfied. So what is the X at the end of the serial number? I checked mine again, and see that I had it wrong in my last post. It is not an 823XXX it is an 822232. I am wondering why they are asking so much for that horn too?

vsj725
02-25-2011, 05:38 AM
That engraving does look weird!! The box isn't even at all. I have ordered reeds from them before and been very satisfied. So what is the X at the end of the serial number? I checked mine again, and see that I had it wrong in my last post. It is not an 823XXX it is an 822232. I am wondering why they are asking so much for that horn too?

Someone has definitely taken an engraving tool and added that box around the USA by hand. It's not symmetrical and not very well centered around the USA. I don't know why someone would do that but I suppose it certainly wouldn't affect the horn's quality.

As far as the Xs in the serial numbers, I think that some people don't want to post their exact serial number online. It's not really necessary. For these horns, the first three digits will pretty much tell you all you need to know. My alto is an 820xxx and my tenor is an 828xxx, so that puts the alto as a model 162 and the tenor as a TS100. I mostly post serial numbers that way because I can't remember the entire number without going and opening my cases, and I'm too lazy to do that :)

I bought my TS100 from usahorn.com for $2000 about 9 months ago and I think I paid a little too much but I love my alto so much that I was really happy to find a similar model tenor. My tenor is in at least as good a shape as that one on eBay so I really think they are asking way too much. That's pretty obvious just based on the fact that the horn has been listed on eBay since I bought my horn...

soybean
02-25-2011, 08:22 PM
Someone has definitely taken an engraving tool and added that box around the USA by hand. It's not symmetrical and not very well centered around the USA.…I agree with you. Also, the USA and ® engraving do not look correct.

prosax11
02-28-2013, 06:22 PM
Here is something that simply shows that we are ALL wrong. This is my Selmer USA tenor, 828xxx. Check out the pics. Supposedly, only the earlier models have the intricate engravings. Nope. Some say they started using the "Omega" designation after 825xxx-ish. Nope. Some say that after 825xxx they started stamping the Selmer USA logo. Nope. Some say that only the earlier models below 825xxx have the pearl embedded in the F# key. Nope. Some say that the neck changed in the later numbers 826xxx and above from the Paris look-a-likes without the beam to necks with beams. Nope.
Verdict: ??? Selmer USA were impaired in the 80's and 90's??? Don't really care. I love this horn...it is a monster player.

42594425954259642597

vsj725
03-17-2013, 08:48 AM
Here is something that simply shows that we are ALL wrong. This is my Selmer USA tenor, 828xxx. Check out the pics. Supposedly, only the earlier models have the intricate engravings. Nope. Some say they started using the "Omega" designation after 825xxx-ish. Nope. Some say that after 825xxx they started stamping the Selmer USA logo. Nope. Some say that only the earlier models below 825xxx have the pearl embedded in the F# key. Nope. Some say that the neck changed in the later numbers 826xxx and above from the Paris look-a-likes without the beam to necks with beams. Nope.
Verdict: ??? Selmer USA were impaired in the 80's and 90's??? Don't really care. I love this horn...it is a monster player.


The Model 162, 164, AS100, TS100 horns ALL had only the USA logo and nothing else on the bell that designated the model of the horn.

As far as I know, all of the model 162, 164, AS100, TS100 horns had intricate engraving. The engraving on the bell around the "USA" did change at some point, though. Both styles were intricate but were definitely different. I'll have to see if I can find pics.

I think the Omega designation was only for the model 162 altos. Some people refer to the model 164 tenors as Omegas but I've seen discussions that dispute that. Even if the tenors were originally designated as Omegas, that would put the serial numbers in the low 82xxxx range. They didn't start out as model 162/164 and then get the Omega name later.

The pearl F# key was added very early in the evolution of these horns. I've seen 821xxx altos with the metal bar and 822xxx with the oval pearl F# on Ebay. I've never seen a Tenor with the metal bar F# so I don't have any info on those.

I haven't collected any info on the necks. I didn't realize that they changed throughout the iterations of these horns.

The things that I know changed on these horns are:
High F# key: From metal bar to oval pearl
Engraving on bell: From fancy to slightly less fancy
Thumb rest: From metal to plastic
Lacquer: From Rose Gold to a brighter gold


Honestly, without Selmer USA catalogs from every year throughout the 80s it's going to be impossible to determine when the transition from the Omega/162/164 to the AS100/TS100 officially occurred. In my opinion it doesn't really matter. I think these are outstanding horns and I wouldn't part with my Omega alto or TS100 tenor for anything!

whaler
03-17-2013, 06:29 PM
Mine is 828xxx and doesn't have a neck brace. I guess it is a TS100. I don't think they are pro horns anymore than I think that a Yanagisawa 901 or Mauriet or any Chinese horn is a pro horn.
They play well and for the price you can get them at now they make a great bar horn.
I doubt that Selmer USA would re-tool at different times to change their USA 'pro' model, even moreso if it wasn't selling. Except for the engraving, thumb hook and F sharp key. I can't really see any difference over the run. The keys all look to be the same type.

BBaker
03-31-2014, 09:43 PM
I was first turned onto this horn by a Pro playing it in public. Got to see him three times. (Boots Randolph!) I know I am going to get flack on this one, but He preferred this horn over the Super80. (he was required to play a current production horn since he was Selmer's #1 pro!). His story:Selmer USA gave him the horn if he would play it. Put it in the closet playing it occasionally and grew to prefer it. He said The Omega was on the market for two years. After the first year Selmer Paris got wind of it and had one sent to Paris for evaluation. As a result, they made USA pull it off the market. USA lobbied and was able to reinstate it a year later with a different model designator and the Omega name had to go away." He also said that the USA folks "built it in the basement and didn't tell Paris what they were doing." Since at the time I was Playing a '35 Aristocrat I kidded him that he was really playing a modern Buescher!

My horn is #8280xx, Flowered bell and back of the tube. Love It. The old Buescher has a deeper low end voice though.

BBaker
03-31-2014, 09:55 PM
Also, You have to wonder if this horn was the cause of the Various reference horns from Selmer Paris. I have also seen other brands of horns that appear to be identical to the TS100. I do wonder if they are making them for other vendors or are selling with different names to get rid of them at lower pricing??

I purchased this horn the day after Boots played at Lake Junalaska (? sp) in NC (~2006) just west of Asheville. (I believe this is the Methodists #1 church). I have since played the reference horns; the ref. 54 is about the same and the 36 is a little bit better. However, the left hand paddle keys are very uncomfortable on the ref horns.

dealaddict
05-29-2014, 09:18 PM
I think the name 164 VS TS100 cause more confusion. I have seen the brochure about 164, without Omega, just 164. And I never seen any brochure about TS100, nor any saxophone with TS100 engraved on it. Same for the alto, but I have seen some horn with AS110 engrave on it.

So, I am wondering if the name TS100 is a "urban legend" or not, as I haven't seen any published material with that name. So, when I talk to others, I start to refer mine (serial number 827xxx) as 164 without Omega. The model 164 can have gone through some revisions, but they may not have a different model number. Would it be less confusing if we go with the paradigm like

from serial number 800xxx-823xxx - 164 revision I
from serial number 824xxx-830xxx - 164 revision II ?

I think the changes are very minor, from what I read, they are basically the same horn and sound the same.

stevesklar
06-01-2014, 01:44 AM
I think the name 164 VS TS100 cause more confusion. I have seen the brochure about 164, without Omega, just 164. And I never seen any brochure about TS100, nor any saxophone with TS100 engraved on it. Same for the alto, but I have seen some horn with AS110 engrave on it.

So, I am wondering if the name TS100 is a "urban legend" or not, as I haven't seen any published material with that name. So, when I talk to others, I start to refer mine (serial number 827xxx) as 164 without Omega. The model 164 can have gone through some revisions, but they may not have a different model number. Would it be less confusing if we go with the paradigm like

from serial number 800xxx-823xxx - 164 revision I
from serial number 824xxx-830xxx - 164 revision II ?

I think the changes are very minor, from what I read, they are basically the same horn and sound the same.

okay, so ... what's this ?
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/Gallery/SelmerUSA/as110/sax02.jpg

I know I have others too .. but that is one example of an alto "as110" .... urban legend or not

but you are right, as my ts100 does not have any stamp identifying it.
There were 3 distinct versions though, with quality being lowered through the 3 and it's versions after that to student horns.
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/snsax.htm#Selmer%28USA%29

I also ran across this in my notes from 2012


Just wanted to share some information about this model. I have this tenor sax which I purchased along with a matching alto in 1993. Some people believe it was a copy of the series II but that is not the case.

I asked for more information about the model and spoke to Dennis Fece, who was setting them up at the time. He told me the model 100 was a reaction to feedback on the Omega; which was a mark VI copy. Musicians asked for this horn and I think it was designed by Ralph Morgan. Then they complained that some notes were not in tune. It was a dimensional copy of the VI, which was not perfect either. So the 100 incorporated the Mark VII bore for improved tuning. Mr. Fece said the difference was more noticeable on tenor than alto. The 100 has more power than the VI. The right hand pinky Eb and low C spatulas were positioned too high for me on the tenor; so I had those adjusted down. I also added gold plated custom necks. They are great saxophones.

dealaddict
06-01-2014, 03:31 AM
maybe you misunderstood my post, or I am not clear.

Yes, it is clear that there are horns with AS110 on it, it is obvious it is the model number. And there is a brochure about the model number 162 and 164. But there is nothing about the 100 (AS100/TS100). So, I start to wonder if the name 'TS100/AS100' is a real, official model or not.

Could the model be just "162/164", follow by "TS110/AS110"?

stevesklar
06-01-2014, 10:37 AM
It has been a couple years since those models were out ... So brochures and sales info is spotty at best.

There are significant difference between the original and the second variety.
Ive had them in my hands and did quick compares a few years ago. I never checked the bores though, and if they are different then they were completely different horns.

I recommend you check old repair parts manuals from selmer usa.

1saxman
06-11-2014, 10:24 PM
I thought it was an interesting question, since Selmer bought Buescher around the same time as the Omega came out. It occurred to me that Buescher designers or builders were possibly working for Selmer during this time. They also had a reputation for making great altos including the Big B and True Tone. If it is a moronic idea, how do you explain the continuity of Buescher serial numbers?

No. Selmer bought Buescher in about 1963. I bought a new Selmer Buescher 400 tenor in 1964.

1saxman
06-11-2014, 10:27 PM
If this comment is just about the Selmer USA pro tenor horns, then I believe you. If you are including the model 162 altos, then you're flat out wrong about the USA pro-line horns never having a metal (no pearl) side F#. I posted a pic of mine earlier in this thread.
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb359/vsj725/Selmer_162.jpg
That's clearly a metal bar F#. You can scroll up and see my serial number. I bought the horn brand new in the summer of 1983. The earliest models of these horns had a metal bar and not the oval pearl side F# key.

I said SIDE F#. It is always a pearl. Round on the early altos and oval on the tenors. The HIGH F# is a brass bar on the early (Omega) alto and a pearl later, and it's an oval pearl on all tenors.

1saxman
06-11-2014, 10:41 PM
[QUOTE=Fungus Mungus;1570054]My my, look what I've stirred up! :)

So, I've learned a little more, mainly by looking at more horns. Based on the horns I've seen, here's what I'm guessing:

Very early Model 162 altos had a metal bar side F#...vsj725's pic is proof of this. I've heard this from other people, but discounted it. His (or her?) posting of a pic is what finally made me believe this.

Model 162 altos and 164 tenors had the ribbon style engraving that was fairly modest. Nothing like the American engraving found on American Mark VI models. I've seen this style of engraving from serials 821xxx up to 823xxx. These also had darker gold lacquer coatings.

Somewhere between 823xxx and 825xxx, Selmer redesignated these horns as AS100/TS100. I've heard someone claim that there was a mix of horns designated as 162/164 and AS/TS100 in this serial number range. I've seen horns in this range with both DARK gold lacquer and clear S80-style lacquer, as well as both ribbon and classic American Selmer engraving (with the typical flower adorning the back of the bell). I even have an alto in the 823xxx range that has BOTH the ribbon style engraving AND the American Selmer floral engraving on the back of the bell. I assume this might be some kind of "transitional' engraving style where they started to step up the engraving to make it look more like a pro horn.

For 825xx-830xxx ranges, Selmer stepped up the engraving and applied the same engraving (sometimes a little simplified) that was used on the Mark VI and early Mark VI American engraved models. This engraving typically extended all the way to the bow, but on altos, there are examples where the engraving extended all the way up the back of the body tube of the horn. I've only seen this in the 829xxx range. For the most part, the lacquer had changed from dark gold to the clear S80 style lacquer. The latest model I've seen was 830xxx in a tenor. Light lacquer, amazing engraving, and IDENTICAL to the horns dubbed "Model 164".

What I was trying to figure out was, is there a mechanical difference between a Model 162/164 from the 821xxx serial number range and an AS/TS100 from the 829xxx serial number range? From all of the horns I've looked at (over 20 so far), my observation tells me NO, there is no appreciable difference between the horns. The bore, neck, and key work look identical.
I say this because I've been hassled by a self-appointed "expert" that claims that Selmer "cheapened" the Selmer USA line when they changed the 162/164 line to AS/TS100. I can find absolutely no evidence supporting this claim. Once the serial numbers went to 1,xxx,xxx, there were definitely differences (neck brace, keywork changed, etc). But from the horns I've seen over the whole gamut of the Selmer USA "Pro" line, I could see no differences.

I have pics to back this all up, but it's almost 12:30am and I need to get some sleep before I wake up again at 5:30.

Yes, there are significant mechanical differences. The RH pinky keys became like the Super 80, along with the tear-drop high F instead of the round pearl and 'clear' lacquer. The necks on all of the tenors were the same design, very much like the Super 80 or k VII. These saxes are still as good or better than the earlier 'gold-lacquer' examples. I just mentioned the two obvious key differences because its been a very long time since I had my hands on one of these and I don't remember the finer points. And I never pay any attention to engraving in a comparison like this because with Selmer USA, they changed frequently and didn't seem to have any consistency.

1saxman
06-11-2014, 10:54 PM
[COLOR="blue"You're correct in saying my horn's not a 164 or TS100. But you're incorrect in a couple other statements. The 1244 horn has 1244 engraved/stamped under the Selmer name. Mine is engraved Selmer USA. The 1244 has nickel-plated keys and rods. My horn is all brass/gold, no nickel plating anywhere. If you search far and wide for pics of Selmer USA horns you will find that in some years, they were manufactured with high F# "bar" side keys that are without pearls, and side F# keys that are teardrops without pearls. In fact I think there are a couple of "pro" altos shown here on the site with exactly those photos.

I'm not saying nor have I ever said my USA is a "pro level" horn. But for sure it ain't a 1244. I'd guess I spent 2 - 3 hours searching for info on the horn on-line and on phone calls to Selmer. The answers I got pretty much show that this particular model is what's often referred to as an "intermediate" instrument - whatever that means.

But, maybe you could help me and others out here; where did you find the info about my Selmer USA tenor sax? Is there a site or a company I missed? So far I've tried google, Bing and Yahoo search engines, Ask.com, Ask The Experts.com, Conn-Selmer.com and on the phone with them, FactCheck.com, All About Saxophone.com, and about a half-dozen others. I also took it to a local repair shop for them to check it out. They too agreed with Conn-Selmer customer service and Ask the Experts, that the horn's a 1989/'90 build, and they agreed about the high and side F# key appearance as common to that horn. At no time did "Model 1244, T100" or any other description appear in my posts or in their opinion of the instrument model. It is as described.

However, all that aside, this horn plays as well as any "pro" model I've ever played. In the end, that's really all that matters, isn't it?[/COLOR]

I know the info about the Selmer USA saxes because I bought a new Omega alto in 1983 and followed the development of the tenor with great interest as my 1966 MK VI tenor was pretty well done-for by that time. When the tenor finally hit the music store, I tried one out, but seeing no difference in tone/response from the MK VI, I lost interest in buying one at that time. I ended up buying a new SA80II. But I still was interested in what was happening at Elkhart. This was all pre-internet, of course, so I tracked the changes by seeing them in the WW&BW catalog and seeing the horns locally. I have had USA tenor #8255xx for some time now and play it on gigs about half the time. I've never paid any attention to the lesser USA models, like the 1244 or 200 series. I just don't have any interest in student-model horns. But, one still sees things, so I know that a tenor with a wire brace on the neck is a student model, probably a 1244. Certainly not a 164 or TS100 unless somebody is using the wrong neck on it.

stevesklar
06-12-2014, 03:18 PM
What I was trying to figure out was, is there a mechanical difference between a Model 162/164 from the 821xxx serial number range and an AS/TS100 from the 829xxx serial number range? From all of the horns I've looked at (over 20 so far), my observation tells me NO, there is no appreciable difference between the horns. The bore, neck, and key work look identical.


Chat with a tech that has the old parts catalogs. I think the horn up to the 162/4 - 100 line used the same keywork albeit with a few touch changes.
Same part numbers .... same parts ....

I used to have their horn schematic parts breakdowns but threw them out many moons ago.

Stocker
06-15-2014, 05:56 PM
Yes, it is clear that there are horns with AS110 on it, it is obvious it is the model number. And there is a brochure about the model number 162 and 164. But there is nothing about the 100 (AS100/TS100). So, I start to wonder if the name 'TS100/AS100' is a real, official model or not.

Selmer's website of the time called it a TS100. https://web.archive.org/web/19970224200323/http://www.selmer.com/htdox/sax1.htm

davevillajr
07-02-2014, 10:49 PM
Somewhere I have a brochure featuring the AS110 and the TS100 using those EXACT model names. I scanned it and passed it along to FungusMungus, but that computer crashed and I didn't think to upload that catalog to photobucket.

I'm searching, but so far have only come up with dirty hands and a dusty nose...

Once I find them I'll upload pics to help this discussion along.