Ref 54 low note problem - possible cause/solution

[singlereed]

I can't find my way around this new forum....

Anyway, there has been some discussion of the problem of low C on the new Ref 54 alto. Mine had been OK since its initial set-up after purchase, but I'd had a problem with it in recent weeks. I took it to my tech who serviced and checked it as usual, but she still found the low notes were not right. Replacing a couple of palm key pads helped, and when she took them apart, found that the pads did not have the usual plastic membrane between the felt and leather. The problem was cured properly by replacing the low Eb pad, which also lacked the membrane. so, the instrument appeared not to leak when subjected to the normal checks, but it still didn't work properly. It seems that the pads being fitted by Selmer are of inferior quality, which might explain why several other users have been having trouble tracking down the low note problem. The most likely culprits are pads that are normally closed, but I suppose others could contribute too. Hope this helps.

[jaankaden]

that's quite a revelation (read: disgusting shock. i'd say surprise, but considering what we have come to expect from selmer..). it really was bad enough that many selmer horns had to be properly setup immediately after purchase to make them sing, but now we have to repad them as well? what next? schedule an overhaul right out of the box? this is getting really sad.

[saxmanglen]

Singlereed,

How much would you say you played your horn before you started getting the low C thing happening?

I'll be getting my Ref. 54 alto out of lay-a-way within the next couple of weeks. I picked a beauty that spoke super easy compared to the other 2 I tried side by side. I'm a bit worried about the "hidden issues" that may come up within a few months.

Was the work that you needed covered under the original warranty?

Regards, Glen

[Dave Dolson]

Glen: If it is any consolation, I've played my Ref 54 alto continually since I bought it in Mid-March from Kessler. No problems have developed - it plays as good as the day I tested it. I play it probably four times a week at home and on every gig I've had since owning it. Great horn. DAVE

[singlereed]

I have had the Ref 54 alto for about 10 months. I had it set up a few weeks after I first got it and then had another adjustment a few weeks afterwards. I have mentioned this before, but the tech said she'd had to realign almost every single pad.

Anyhow, I play it every day and I'd had 7 or 8 months trouble free playing. We have had several months of hot dry weather here (amazing for the UK!) and I had noticed that the low C (but not the B or Bb) was becoming troublesome. So, I had it adjusted and summarised the issues that the tech found in the post above. It is now seriously kicking ***, and down the bottom end it has amazing power and control and not the slightest hint of any burbling. I also had the spring tensions softened a bit and the action is a lot faster now.

As I bought my horn by post, I wouldn't have sent it back under warranty. The technician I use is very reasonably priced, so the work I had done cost me less than postage or petrol to the original dealer. Indeed, I have yet to find a dealer who properly sets up a Selmer here in the UK and as mine wasn't quite right when I bought it, I am not sure the dealer really knew what they were doing.

Regarding these pads, I suppose it is entirely possible that they had a bad batch of pads when mine was made or even that they have since switched to a different type of pad.

[saxmanglen]

Dave,

Mines coming from Kessler too. I hope to have the same results as you've had. Thanks for the information.


Glen

[Dave Dolson]

Glen: Another SOTW poster with whom I've become friends played my Ref 54 a few weeks ago and could not believe how good the horn was. Now he's ordered one from Kessler. He should get his next Wednesday - and is in great anticipation!!! Let us know how it works for you. I'll bet you're antsy alright!! DAVE

[saxmanglen]

Dave:

I'm in great anticipation! Waiting for the check to clear my bank before he ships.

I stopped into Kessler's shop about 2 months ago on my way back from Colorado. Dave's very accomodating. I thought I'd just play a few of the 54's to see what the fuss was all about. The first one I tried was good, not great for me, but even so probably the best alto I'd ever played. The second was about the same. The third, on the otherhand, seemed to almost play itself as I blew through the horn. "I had to have it", I just needed to raise some funds by selling a couple of other horns. I left the shop with a deposit on a new horn "I just wanted to try out". ( The wife now has a new grandfather clock for our anniversary to make up for me getting a new sax)

Now I may have to try some Tenor's sometime............................. ooooooooooooooh noooooooooooooo........................... Is it a GAS attack?

[sweetsax]

I know this low note problem on the 54 alto has already been discussed at great length, but I wanted some further input from everybody who's been a part of the discussion. I bought a new Ref 54 alto a couple weeks ago, and I just love the tone. The only time I have experienced the low note gurgle is when I don't have the mouthpeice pushed on far enough. I know the 54 has a longer neck and you are supposed to push your mouthpeice on until there is almost no cork showing. My problem is that I tend to play a little sharp, so I am always adjusting by pulling out a little. With my new 54 alto, I end up playing this game where I need to pull out because I am sharp, but I can't pull out too far because I start getting the low note gurgle. Has anybody had a similar experience? How can I keep the mouthpeice pushed on far enough to get a good response, but not have my intonnation sail way sharp? BTW, I am using the Super Session E mouthpeice that came with the horn. The E is a relatively large tip opening (0.083, I think). Could I get better intonnation and control if I used something like a Selmer Soloist mouthpeice with a smaller tip opening? I posted this qustion on the Selmer message board too, but this forum is much larger and there seems to be more 54 owners who have posted here.

I look forward to your unput. I'm just loving the tone and projection on my 54 alto, but I don't want it to be ruined by intonnation problems.

[jaankaden]

emulating desmond, i cannot provide you with a proper answer to your question due to my not knowing your playing experience etc, but it could be your embouchure. of course, the horn could be the problem as well, but that would require a tech to sort things out for you, so let's just stay with the embouchure bit.

do you bite etc? these may be reasons for your playing a little sharp. i would suggest you do the mouthpiece check with a tuner (you know the drill, play just the mouthpiece and try to get a concert A, etc). if all else fails, have someone else try the horn or just haul it to your tech.

[Dave Dolson]

Emulating: I have three pieces for my Ref 54 alto - a Soloist F, a Super Session F, and an older Meyer 6S-Medium Chamber. The Soloist is the longest of the three and it needs to go on the neck a bit further than the shorter two. But, they all go on almost to the bottom of the cork for me to play to pitch.

I tend to agree with Jaankaden about embouchure. That SS-E should play well (if it plays at all for you) and you should not be out of tune over the entire range if you've place the piece properly on the cork so your middle notes are in tune. DAVE

[singlereed]

Emulating Desmond, I suspect you have a technique issue or maybe should consider a slightly different mouthpiece set-up. A more closed facing mouthpiece such as a C* Soloist would keep you from biting and therefore help intonation. This is the set-up I use (with a 3.5 reed) on my Ref alto and it works well. I do not think, however, that there is a fundamental mis-match with the supplied Super Session even though it may not suit you personally. I have found I need to shove most mouthpieces almost all the way on to the neck cork of this horn.

[Sigmund451]

I just bought a 54 tenor and opted to go with saxquest because of their reportedly extensive setup proceedure. It appears that he overall consensus is that selmer treats shelac as though it were gold. Thusly, the sides of the keys are not adequately treated and there is not enough in the cups. This makes for a situation where even if a horn is adjusted properly the work will not last because there is not enough material to hold it in place for extended periods of time. It may play great comming out of the shop but extensive playing will compress and shift the pad and allow the leak to once again emerge. Tenor Madness removes and reseates many of these pads along with other things. It didnt really cost me any more money, just a little wait time. Im hoping that it will result in a horn that lacks these absurd problems. Selmer needs to learn that their flagship should not require an full time bilge pump!

[sweetsax]

Dave, Singlereed, and Jaankaden,

Thanks for your responses. I do think the first source of my tuning problem is my technique. I hadn't played for a few years and I recently wanted to get back into playing. Now I find myself playing in three bands and my chops need some time to get back into shape. I noticed I have been bitting a little when my chops start to wear out. I also noticed that I've been tightening up too much to aim for those high notes which can send them sharpe.

I liked the sound of that Super Session E when I play tested the horn, but I also have a Vandoren V16 A5 that has a smaller chamber and tip opening. I think I'll pair that peice with the 54 and use stronger reeds. I'm hoping that will help control my pitch a little.

BTW Dave -
I sent you a private message but I don't think I did it right. The message is not in my "sent items" list. I am brand new to this forum and I noticed you are all over the place here. Since you have an A992 and a Ref alto, I wanted to get a comparison between these horns. I never got the chance to test play the A992, but I did own an S992. I almost ordered the A992 on good faith without playing one first. Then I finally tried the Ref Alto and decided I had to have it, as it sounded better than any sax I've tested. I'm sure the A992 and the Ref alto have been compared somewhere on this forum so I didn't want to just repost the same topic. I noticed some people get annoyed with that. That's why I tried to send you a private message about it.... hope it worked....

[Dave Dolson]

Emulating: I have not received your private e-mail, although admittedly, I've been out-of-town for several days. When I went through my messages, I saw nothing like what you described. Try me again at jazzdolsonatcomcastdotnet. Looking forward to chatting with you. DAVE

[saxmanglen]

Dave,

Got my horn today! Put a couple hours on it between work and back to school night for my daughter. Fell in love with it again instantly as I did when I played it in Dave's shop.

Played some slower low ended balads to give the low end a work out and everything at this point plays effortlessly. No initial issues with the low end gurgle that's been mentioned.

I was using my Jody Jazz ESP 90 w/o spoiler and #3 reed. I'll be experimenting with some rubber pieces this weekend.

Regards

[Dave Dolson]

Glen: Congrats! . . . and, enjoy. DAVE

[JEB]

I recently purchased a Reference alto. I chose it among 2 others. There were not much differences among them overall. After a few days of playing it, I started having difficulty getting the low C# out. Only the low C#. This occured with several different mouthpiece and reed combinations. It turned out that there were two leaks which appeared sequentially. The first was between the neck tenon and neck receiver caused by lacquer mistakingly applied over the upper half of the tenon. It was slowly peeling off every time I put the neck on or removed it. This probably caused an uneven fit and a leak.
The other leak appeared later between the neck and neck cork which was too thin and was inadequately glued on. Saliva (and probably air) would slip through as I played.

Fixing these two leaks solved the problem.

Just for your info.

[JohnL.]

I'm fortunate enough to be taking lessons with Albert Regni, saxophonist for the New York Philharmonic, and he had the gurgling problem with my Reference 54 on the low B. He said he had the same problem when he was using an early mark VI, and told me that the reason for the gurgle was an acoustical flaw in which the air stream was moving too quickly when it got to the bow, which causes excess turbulance. He claims that this is why the gurgle takes place, and that later selmers had bore modifications to fix the problem.

[Dave Dolson]

JohnL: I respectfully disagree. If that theory is correct, how is it that neither my MKVI nor my Ref 54 gurgle? And, there are others of us who have not experienced gurgles on their Ref 54s. DAVE

[JohnL.]

Dave, I no longer have the gurgle problem due to some voicing adjustment and better breath support, but it was readily apparent to my teacher that the problem was there. Evidentally selmer adjusted this problem on later mark VI's, perhaps when they switched to longer bows. Although the flaw is easy to adjust to with a little bit of playing time, I still think it exists. The stories of old early mark VI alto users putting ping pong balls in the bow of their horns and the similar stories by members of this forum about the same problem in the reference 54 leads me to believe that the problem is more than a leaky horn.

[Dave Dolson]

JohnL: I'm no expert on MKVI altos (especially what constitutes an early vs. late model, nor whether or not they changed the bow design). I recall there were various ways the ends of the bow were desgined (aligning the two bow ends at different levels - if that makes any sense, which I don't think made the entire tube any longer or shorter, just changed the locations where the ends were joined with the body and the bell).

My VI is around serial #112xxx - don't know if that is early or late. But I'm still not convinced about the gurgling being a design flaw. And as far as dropping things down the bell to help stop gurgling, THAT so-called fix goes way back before the VI as I recall.

Maybe someone who knows the whole Selmer line can enlighten us - or correct me, but I've owned several Selmer altos over time and none gurgled (Cigar Cutter, BA, VI, and Ref 54). DAVE

[johnsax]

Personally, I think the gurgling issue may have something to do with saxophones but I also feel that the biggest component is operator-dependent.

I've played many of Dave's saxophones and got gurgling on several that amazingly disappeared when HE played them. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that he's been playing around 50 years longer than me?
Although I have to say that when I played his new Reference 54 alto, I got NO gurgling.

I get gurgling on MY new Reference 54 (whose purchase was inspired by playing Dave's) if I'm playing flat and don't have the mpc pushed in far enough with low C and below. When it's pushed in, no problem.

John

[singlereed]

I agree an experienced player can often manage with a difficult set-up, but do read my first post on this issue - there was definitely a problem with my horn that was cured by replacing a few pads.

[sweetsax]

Based on my experience, I think the low note gurgle is mostly due to the player's chops and their ability to control their playing. I don't think it's a problem with the way selmers are designed. I've read posts on this forum where players have had this same issue with other saxophone models, both new and vintage alike.

I've had my Ref 54 alto for about a month now. I was pleased to find that I did NOT have the low note gurgle problem from the start. However, I had my first marathon practice session yesterday playing in my basement for about 4 or 5 hours. After that much playing, my chops were worn out and I started to get the gurgle on anything below low D. I finished up by playing long tones in front of a tuner on all those low notes. I really focused on supporting and controlling the tone and airflow. I was able to successfully control and avoid the gurgle at all dynamic levels.

BTW Dave - you were right about my Reference 54. I have no regrets with that horn so far. I have paired it with a Vandoren V16 #5 mp, and I have stepped up my read strength to a 2 (vandoren or brancher), and man oh man that horn just sings! The only thing that I noticed when working with a tuner is that my middle D is very sharp. Middle D is also a little bit stuffy sounding, just a tiny bit though, not enough to notice when I am playing with an ensemble. I only notice it when I'm playing scales or long tone exercises. When I play C, C#, then D, I notice the tone of D sounds a little muffled compared to C and C#. Then when I go straight from D to E natural, the tone really opens up when I hit the E. I notice the biggest difference in moving back and forth from D to E. Have you or anybody else noticed this on the 54 alto? I am not too worried about it because I know that a sharp and/or dead sounding middle D is a common issue with the alto saxophone. And again, it is a very subtle difference. I don't even notice it when I'm playing a song. I think this is because when you are playing a melody, you are concentrating on playing lyrically. This is probably why I don't notice a stuffy middle D during my concert and jazz band rehearsals. Anyway, if it doesn't affect my ability to perform, I am not going to worry about it. But I did want to throw it out there on this forum to see what all the other Ref alto players thought....

Thanks everyone!....

[saabtech]

i agree with dolson and desmund.

i dont believe selmer has a problem with the 54. i got mine about three weeks ago. and from day one both the 54's i tried had the gurgle. a few times back in the store to try them out, i figured out my problem.

emboushure and air direction/support changes, i can now play without the gurgle. beautiful playing and looking horn! i love it!

[Gordon (NZ)]

I have been highly critical in the past about the non-adjustment and shoddy felting/corking etc of Selmers I see direct from the factory. Selmer seemed to incorrectly believe that corking the keys shut would automatically carry out the adjustment process. Joke!!

I have just seen and checked a Reference 54 Alto and am happy to report that its set-up and state of adjustment is the first for years that has been pleasing for me to behold. It had no cork wedges. Only 4 minor adjustments were called for.

And a great instrument to boot.

I hope this is the beginning of a better era.

It is good to see Selmer is now using a non-squishy polymer on the end of regulating screws. Now what I would like to see is the replacement of stack key linkage corks with quality composite cork which has far less tendency to crush out of adjustment, as do Yamaha and Yanagisawa.

[Dave Dolson]

Gordon: Your last comment . . . Are you saying that Yamaha/Yanagisawa use the better cork and do NOT squish out of adjustment . . . or that they squish out of adjustment? DAVE

[Gordon (NZ)]

They are a lot less inclined to squish out of adjustment.

Thick (say 1 mm) natural cork is a silly material to use for linkages that require accuracy at least around around 0.05 mm.

It's as silly as measuring with a soft rubber ruler.

[Krieg]

I don't own one yet (hope to in the next year--poor white boy), but I have been asking various people. Teachers, retailers, and the like. I think the most useful information came from Mathew Aaron at SaxForte.
he gurgling problem you descrobe can occurs when a saxophone's air volume on low B is out of tune with itself.
i.e. the horn does not contain the corect air volume to resonate in the desired pitch. The common reasons for this are...
-- mouthpiece out too far on the cork
-- mouthpiece with too large a chamber design fior the sax bore geometry
Very often we can see this issue with one mouthpiece on a sax and but changing the mouthpiece completely removes the problem.
Of course, a sax with leaking pads will also present problems playing low notes.
I think it's safe to say he sums up everything everyone has said. :lol: Air pressure is improper, mouthpiece is not on the cork enough, mouthpiece incompatibility, etc... Just thought I'd pass it along. Hope it clears some things up!

[Gordon (NZ)]

Edit: I used the material in this post to start a new thread, "Selmer Quality Control Update".