Reed rotation

[area51recording]

What kind of strategies do you guys employ with regards to rotating the reeds you use? It seems like I play 1 or 2 reeds (Rico Plasticover 3's for tenor) and I guess they just get gradually softer and softer, which my chops must adjust to over time, because when I finally get around to buying the same strength reed it feels like they are MUCH harder than what I'm using. What would be a good method of rotating reeds so that I don't experience so much of this phenomenon? Thanks!!

[Vortex]

Usually 4 reeds at a time in rotation is good enough. If you play in a variety of situations and/or need good reeds for performance, probably 8 should suffice. Use a different reed each day than you did the day before.

[Morry]

I have one of the Selmer reed cases for alto and one for tenor. The tenor case holds five, and the alto holds 10 reeds. I use the reed on the far left side, and then move them all down 1 slot. When I'm done playing, I put it back in the rightmost slot. A simple technique, but it works for me.

[Razzy]

I just have three reedholders for alto, two that hold 4 and one which holds 2. I rotate an entire box of 10 reeds, and this allows a single box to go a long way.

[Spaz Johnson]

I don't know how anyone can be satisfied with anything less than the BEST available reed on their horn at any given moment! I couldn't play knowing that I have another, better sounding, reed just sitting on the warm-up bench in my sax case!

To me, it shows a lack of concern about what is emanating from the other end of the horn. (When, like me, you have no technique, tone becomes much more important!)

On the other hand, when reed number one goes....I'm skrood!

[Vortex]

Great idea Morry, I don't know why I never considered that... I'm going to give that a try from now on.

Now for Spaz:

"I don't know how anyone can be satisfied with anything less than the BEST available reed on their horn at any given moment! I couldn't play knowing that I have another, better sounding, reed just sitting on the warm-up bench in my sax case!"

Spaz, it's simple. It takes self control and micro-management. You can't be blowing your best reeds all the time, as they should be saved for when it absolutely, positively must not go wrong at all, i.e. an audition, big performance, etc. If you don't have anything coming up, cool, rotate them in, but don't play them all the time - the downsides to this are quite numerous and detailed in other threads.

"To me, it shows a lack of concern about what is emanating from the other end of the horn. (When, like me, you have no technique, tone becomes much more important!)"

I can understand your concern, it's a classic beginner situation. I know lots of players who pride themselves on tone but don't have good technique. But I really don't think that reeds within the same brand (or box) vary that much from one to another in the world of tone. There was a poll which showed that most players with over 10 years' experience rarely found a "bad" reed. The strength varies, so that in a box of Vandoren 3's, you're getting everything from 2.6's to 3.4's, so learning to adjust your reeds and developing a strong embouchure are critical to get the most out of your reeds (and for other reasons).
Occasionally you do get the messed-up lizard of a reed, but they aren't that common and usually reeds are very playable, just imbalanced.

"On the other hand, when reed number one goes....I'm skrood!"

Thanks for the l33t sp33k, but you don't need it here. If you're only finding 1 or 2 reeds per box that you can play (as you're implying) you probably need to follow my above suggestions. Reeds shouldn't be that much of a problem - heck, my teacher uses Java 3's and uses just about every one in the box, without adjusting them! Learn to work 'em, drill 'em, and develop your embouchure, and these problems will go away.

[Spaz Johnson]

On the contrary, I can, and do, play my best reed each and every time I play and I have done so for half a century!

When I used cane, the problem was immense and traumatic, but for the last 15 years I've used Baris and find most are satifactory but, of those, only ONE is best at that time. Even if only ONE person besides myself is going to hear it...IT HAS TO BE THE BEST I CAN GIVE!

If some situation arises where you don't feel obligated to excell, I can only assume you really just don't care! That makes me sad, because good tone can get you through periods of bad ideas much better than good ideas can get you through periods of bad tone!

[Vortex]

Apparently you didn't read what I wrote, which makes me sad. Go back and read my post over again and actually absorb what I wrote. Do you really think anyone besides you can tell the difference between different reeds of the same brand (especially synthetics, which have a very high quality control)? Even at that, assuming they vary in response (which you apparently don't consider), your best should be put on reserve for when you need it so you're not scrambling to find something suitable at the last minute. When you play your best reed only, over and over again, you wear down its strength and your embouchure gets weaker with it, then when you play another of the same strength, it feels much harder than that last one. How about using those "good, but not the BEST" reeds for practice? I know many professionals who will argue that practice should sound like utter garbage to any ordinary person's ears.

You ought to give cane another try, from my understanding it's a lot different now than it was 15 years ago. By the way, have you been playing "half a century", "15 years", or how long? When I'm playing I DO care about how I sound, but I know my equipment and what it can and cannot do for me - in the realm of tone, there is practically no difference for me from reed to reed within the same brand. If you find any consistent, significant deviation, you've probably got some mind-game tricking your head.

"...because good tone can get you through periods of bad ideas much better than good ideas can get you through periods of bad tone!"

Don't you think it's a bit immature to say that? I have a feeling you're just trying to make excuses for yourself. Just practice my friend, it'll all be revealed in time.

[Spaz Johnson]

Wow, there's the pot calling the kettle black!

Actually, I really think nearly EVERYONE, but you, can tell the difference between reeds of the same brand!

But that's not really the point, is it?!

You seem to think I was asking for advice, when I was making an observation!

I will accept NOTHING LESS than the best tone I can come up with, no matter how impractical that seems to you! As I said, if a SINGLE person besides myself is going to hear me, I would be lax if I did any less than my best. If, as you claim, some listeners are more important than others, you are probably not destined to please many of the important ones and certainly NONE of the unimportant ones with that elitist attitude! This is just an general observation, though I'm sure you'll find a way to be personally insulted!

I have been playing for forty-nine years (rounded up to fifty makes it half a century) and fifteen of those years have been using BARI reeds. I said so quite clearly in a previous post!

Wow again! I had to find the only guy on the planet who is happy with all his reeds! Go figure!

And...Immature? Trust me, that's the most mature and useful advice you'll probably ever get!

Try to imagine a singer with a bad voice. He's gonna have to come up with some truely spectacular words to overcome that handicap! Likewise, the sax player with bad tone from a marginal reed!

[Vortex]

"If, as you claim, some listeners are more important than others, you are probably not destined to please many of the important ones and certainly NONE of the unimportant ones with that elitist attitude!"

Surely, pleasing the important ones should be of some importance? In all practicality you need to prioritize. The "important" ones are auditioners, your audience in a performance, recordings (most important), and the more formal of rehearsals where everything's taking its final shape. I wouldn't play my best reeds while woodshedding, practicing, etc because that's not where I'm trying to have an "elitist attitude" and impress everyone to the fullest degree. Besides that, when you try to be a full-time showoff (outside of 'important audiences') people will think you're a stuck up a##hole :x . To the contrary, your statements make you seem to have the tonal elitist attitude. Believe me when I say that I can hear subtle differences between each reed, but they aren't that significant and I don't interpret them as "good" or "bad", just "different". They're still for the most part the same sound which is what matters. I place much more value on their response and feel, but then I have a strong technique and need my best reeds to give the optimum playing feel. You'll go crazy trying to find the ONE REED that has just the right sound, response, feel, and strength - and if you play on it full-time it'll probably last you two days.

"I have been playing for forty-nine years (rounded up to fifty makes it half a century) and fifteen of those years have been using BARI reeds. I said so quite clearly in a previous post!"

Fine, no problem, I was just clarifying that and making sure you weren't mixing up your facts or over-exaggerating as many on this forum do commonly.

"Wow again! I had to find the only guy on the planet who is happy with all his reeds! Go figure!"

Nope, far from the only one, and no I do find abominations from time to time. I know how to work them as well, making nearly all playable for me. I mentioned my teacher, who has studied with some real legends, like the late Joe Viola, as a guy who can play most reeds without adjustment. And I believe this thread shows that many others have no such reed situation as you (although I believe you may be in the same reed-madness boat as colibri) http://saxontheweb.myforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=8651

"And...Immature? Trust me, that's the most mature and useful advice you'll probably ever get!"

Wow... with advice like that I will die a very wise man... :roll:

Don't take this offensively, I've made up my mind at this point of deliberation and am having a bit of a field day with the thread. Nevertheless I'm just giving some insight from another point on the spectrum.

[Spaz Johnson]

Well, good luck saving your sound for the right ear!

I assume you don't bother with clean underwear unless you're certain you'll be in an accident!

I'm sure you're quite wrong about nearly everything, but, clearly, there's no point in my saying so, as I am, happily, THE least important person on your list of people who don't deserve your best!

[Vortex]

Oh believe me, I'd play for you like I would for anyone else. I do this for a living and don't take my playing trivially. Best? Worst? That's a weird way to look at reeds' tones as they're so subjective, and really the audience has no view into your mind-game (is that not what it is?). I'm glad I don't have such a complex going on inside of me. Figure out how things other than tone work themselves into reeds and you'll be in a whole different ball game (if you already have and just don't care, your pardon please). Do I sense some technique envy?

"I'm sure you're quite wrong about nearly everything.."

Hmm, what was I saying about immaturity? You REALLY have just been tossing everything everything I've written. Your posts border on rants. Not even considering what I've typed shows some serious immaturity on your part.

"but, clearly, there's no point in my saying so"

Then why on earth did you bother to? Either you've got a strange outlook on reeds (which is corrupted by your lack of consideration for other, IMO more critical aspects of a reed) or you're just a bitter fellow looking for a good argument (the more likely). In either case you're not going to p!ss down my back and tell me it's raining, as I'm through with this - I gave you a fair discussion but you don't seem to want to discuss, just spew what you know and refuse to reason and reveal. You've shown your immaturity, your bias, and your bad habits. A wise man would analyze. Goodbye and good riddance, I won't be viewing this thread again so don't waste your time replying. My, it started so nice....

[Morry]

If one uses cane, as I do, there really isn't a BEST reed of the bunch. Since cane is (or was) a living, organic thing, each one varies in any number of ways. I almost never find a reed that is unplayable. On the contrary, if I don't sound my best with a particular reed, I try to adjust my playing and make it work for me. I think that helps me become a better player.

Sometimes it's not about getting the "best" tone, but rather making the playing more interesting.

[Spaz Johnson]

Y'know, 'Tex, I believe you WOULD give me the same second class performance you'd give anyone you deem unimportant! But that's probably not prioritizing so much as it is plain laziness and maybe even a touch of arrogance!

[Spaz Johnson]

Okay, I'm gonna restate this since I'm evidently getting a lot of static on the line....

I have never said anything like "I'm having trouble finding a reed!" THAT is just what you heard! I always have the very best reed on my horn!

What I did say was "I, personally, will accept no less than the best reed available at the time and I really don't see how anyone who really cares could do otherwise" How this is interpreted as my misguided attempt to defy YOUR particular system of reed management is beyond me.

I'm glad something works for each of you. I'm not, however, going to sit back and have anyone tell me my scheme doesn't work just as well as theirs (and has the added bonus of sounding pretty damned good 99.9% of the time!) Using BARI reeds allows me to grab the next reed in line in an emergency!

It seemed like a simple, harmless thing to say...a direct statement that had to do with MY tastes and MY preferences, but I was met with some pretty severe and only vaguely relevant criticism to which I reacted as best I could, considering the circumstances!

Perhaps the "Skrood!" reference was at fault! I just meant that I would have to start the process of finding the best reed once again! Maybe you've never had the pleasure of a REALLY good reed! It simply ends the search then and there! How would I know what you perceive as 'good'?

Then again, why do you suppose you know that sort of thing about me?!

[Vortex]

Y'know, 'Tex, I believe you WOULD give me the same second class performance you'd give anyone you deem unimportant! But that's probably not prioritizing so much as it is plain laziness and maybe even a touch of arrogance!

Did you really think I'd miss an insult like that? I pretend to turn my back for one second and...

For me there is only ONE kind of performance that I will give - an awesome one. And I don't care what reed I'm using when I give it because regardless of whether or not it's my 'best', it WILL sound (if not necessarily feel) just the same. The many spices of life are one of its joys. Sometimes it's nice to have a little lemon without the lime. My goal is to please the audience and make them feel happy and welcome, not go out there with the "I'm showing you every ounce I've got!" kind of attitude I'd presume you'd have even when playing *around* close friends - that's plain arrogance and being a showoff, which experience tells me nobody likes. I try to be the T.R, walking softly while brandishing a big stick. I don't brag about how I play and neither does hardly anyone else here, but you seem to LOVE patting yourself on the back. Your zeal is somewhat commendable, but save it for the gigs. And save your attitude for the people you play around, I don't need it and nobody else here does. So a final goodbye (more like good riddance) with a door left ajar. I pray that we do not meet again

[Vortex]

On the contrary, if I don't sound my best with a particular reed, I try to adjust my playing and make it work for me. I think that helps me become a better player.

It does! I've heard with synthetics you have to use a slightly different embouchure just due to the nature of the material. Cane can be changed so much with embouchure adjustments - maybe that's why synthetic users have those kinds of problems. And those things are supposed to be consistent...

Sometimes it's not about getting the "best" tone, but rather making the playing more interesting.

This whole "best" thing is so relative. What is best? Best for you? Best for me? Best for the player? The audience? Being an interesting player is the whole idea, you wouldn't want to sound dull now would you?

[Spaz Johnson]

"For me there is only ONE kind of performance that I will give - an awesome one. .............I don't brag about how I play and neither does hardly anyone else here, but you seem to LOVE patting yourself on the back."

Now read what you wrote and, with a straight face, tell me you've got a clue!

I have AT NO TIME patted myself on the back and even if I wanted to, I'd have to work around the knives you've planted there. In fact, I said, quite candidly that, with my lack of technique, tone was doubly important to me. My god, man read the instruction manual: "Start brain before engaging mouth!"

The whole "best" thing comes down to this:

A race car driver doesn't run "unimportant" races with kerosene in his tank!

A surgeon dosn't use a Ginsu knife to perform operations on "unimportant" patients!

Sigfried and Roy don't use Morris the cat for "unimportant" audiences.

...And I won't use my second best reed for ANY public performance.

Apparently, YOU will and that's the end of it!

[sax_appeal]

Vortex wrote:Surely, pleasing the important ones should be of some importance?

When is the audience unimportant?

Even practising by yourself you should not choose to play on inferior reeds. As for me? I now select all my reeds individually to best avoid bad reeds. Its more effort and a few dollars more but its worth it.

You could argue that you can't fully determine the quality of a reed by inspection, but I think that you can certainly eliminate all the poorly cut and 'defective' reeds. I expect my very best from myself and therefore I have high expectations in my reeds.

[Vortex]

Sax appeal, what I'm saying is that I can play on ANY of my reeds which aren't abominations and sound my best, regardless of which one I pick. This is because I factor in variables like response, feel, articulation, etc which Spaz doesn't consider, and b/c I play cane and know how to adjust my reeds and adjust myself to get the most out of them. He mentioned he plays synthetics, which require a slightly different embouchure, so such adjustments may be impossible, otherwise 'all' could be his best at a time. A switch to cane, as I humbly suggested early on, might solve these problems, but he doesn't seem to want any help so I won't give any.

"Surely, pleasing the important ones should be of some importance? "

My question was rhetorical. These is no unimportant audience, as I've duly stated, but there are some that call for extra performance to show all you've got, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

"Even practising by yourself you should not choose to play on inferior reeds...I expect my very best from myself and therefore I have high expectations in my reeds"

Again, my reeds (Alexanders mostly) are just fine for me and I find very few that are so bad that I can't adjust them to be suitable for at least practice. Practice reeds for me are basically reeds that are very good but not "stunning", they're a little less reliable than ones I'd use for performance and probably won't last as long. And again, we're talking about Alexanders, so you know that there are very few abominations.

I honestly do not believe reeds make that much of a difference. BUT, if you're so bought out by that flippant spaz, try this on for size - I went to a VERY hard audition for one of the top bands in the country (U.S) this spring. I selected 3 reeds for use, a clarinet Rigotti 3H, a Classique 2, and a ZZ 3 sanded down. I considered the ZZ to have good response, but a bright, and somewhat thin tone. The Classique was very soft compared to what I normally play, a Classique 3. The Rigotti actually ended up being the best clarinet reed I had at the time. Guess what? Despite these reed problems, which should have been CATASTROPHIC according to spaz, I passed the audition. Now try telling me again I didn't give my all there.

Reeds don't suck. Players do. :lol:

[Rahspeak]

I play Alexanders too, and I agree with a lot of what Vortex says. Actually, when i used to play jazz selects, I found myself much less tolerant of "bad" reeds. (I was also a less experienced player then). For me and DCs, there are basically three grades of reeds--horrible, which are either unplayable or needing extensive modification (this is very rare), then the average reed (which is excellent and perfectly playable without any adjustment usually), and those occasional P-E-R-F-E-C-T reeds that just make playing easier than talking. Now, when I find one of those, i definitely take note and keep it ready for a really "important" moment, but, those perfect reeds are hard to find and I'm not going to stress out about not playing on one, even in a gig. I find a playable reed (again, they usually are), and I let it rip. In my opinion, a lack of confidence before a playing situation is much worse than an equipment problem, and obsessing over which reed I'm going to sound best on is paradoxically going to make me not sound my best. This is not to disagree with anyone else's method of choosing reeds, because we all know how personal an experience playing the saxophone can be. Anyone who feels comfortable with their method should not change one iota of what they do because of anyhting posted on this website. But a couple of posters wondered how in their right minds anyone could play on less than their best possible reed. The answer is, nastily!


Just my 2 cents,
Miguel

[Spaz Johnson]

"The Rigotti actually ended up being the best clarinet reed I had at the time. Guess what? Despite these reed problems, which should have been CATASTROPHIC according to spaz, I passed the audition. "

I never said or implied anything of the sort!

I defy you to show me where anything I've said could be twisted, mangled and/or contorted to mean what you have accused me of saying! I believe you are stepping over your bounds by spouting such irresponsible drivel about someone of whom you know nothing except that he disagrees with your nebulous theory of reed care and feeding! Some people have a hearing problem, but you seem to have a LISTENING problem.

In fact, if I read you correctly, you did precisely what I have done my entire life...you selected the best available reed! How criminal is that?

Where was that killer reed you were saving for the audition?

[Vortex]

I'm just pointing out that I think this is being driven out a bit too far for its length. I picked a good clarinet reed, one "ok" jazz reed (certainly not amazing), and a classical reed that was way too soft for me - I definately need all the help on clarinet I can get given my poorly regulated student clarinet and was actually worried I might not pass on this instrument. The Classique was the only one I had so I made do with it, and the jazz reed must've changed due to its age. What I'm saying is, I picked these two on a whim and they ended up being quite poor on my scale of quality, and believe me I know good reeds when I find them. I can't even remember how many stories I've heard of the legends taking the cellophane off an orange-box of Ricos 2 minutes before the show starts, sucking on the reed for a few seconds, slapping it on their horn and playing a whole set on that. Like I've said a few times, maybe it's different with synthetics due to their nature (I'm not a synthetic user), but I don't need my best reed to play my best, and neither do lots of players.

[Spaz Johnson]

And how would that translate into "Spaz doesn't know what he needs, but, due to some cosmic gift, I, the great and powerful Vortex, do!"?

I claim to know very little about the world in general, but your facade of expertise on this subject is transparent to anyone who's ever stuck a mouthpiece in their gob! No matter what you say, there is NO WAY you can play your best with a bum reed, unless, of course, your best simply isn't that good! Now, I haven't actually said that, and would have no right to do so with out hearing you, but your attitude is certainly conducive to arriving at that sort of conclusion!

There are plenty of "legends" who don't even deserve the title of "sax player". I suspect your last minute reed slappers would probably fit in this category! Music is sound! If you don't sound your best, you're not playing your best...in a nutshell!

[area51recording]

erm....ok.....anyway thanks very much for the responses! BTW, fellas,just to chuck in my 1-1/2 cents...in my experience arguing online is kinda like the Special Olympics... even if you win you're still retarded (just a joke I swear :D )

[sax_appeal]

Thanks for that Vortex. I was a little concerned that you might have implied that some audiences aren't worth your best. But it now sounds to me that you meant that you have to work even harder to achieve 110% for some.

Spaz, I don't think Vortex ever said that you can play your best with a bum reed, but in fact meant that you can play your best with a reed that's not perfect, and I'm sure that none exist. Not even synthetic reeds. Vortex is also right when he says that the reed isn't that big a factor in your sound. If you can learn to adapt to different strengths and variations of reeds you should be able to get the best sound you can anyway.

[HonkBopSax]

Psst ... guys ... more listening and practicing, less putzing around in newsgroups. I don't know any professionals who have the time to do so, and since the conversation drifted towards professionals, and I quote - <I know many professionals who will argue that practice should sound like utter garbage to any ordinary person's ears.> - I'll throw this in.

That statement about practicing and garbage has got to be the most asinine thing I've ever heard, and not indicative of anything a professional would say or teach. I've studied with guys ranging from Eric Kloss to Jerry Begonzi, and they always taught me to sound my absolute best at any given moment. The only person who will say that you should sound like utter grabage when practicing is somebody who has no choice but to always sound like utter garbage. I do agree Spaz - if you've got a good reed, use it. Don't wait, because, at least here in PIttsburgh, a change in the humiditiy can take that reed from being a ball buster to a pip squeek in under 24 hours.

In all seriousness, we're all semi anonymous here and we can say what we want and get little reactions out of others. But really, wouldn't everyone has spent their time better by, say, transcribing a Joe Henderson solo? Or investigating just who Joe Henderson is? Or George Coleman? Or Ralph Moore?

All I know is, when I get up and play for an audience, I give them 150% all the time, every time, regardless of reed choice, headaches, heartbreak or whatever. They are paying for a performance and you damn well better give it to them. I can't stand these yutzes on the bandstand who can't make a set of changes, can't play within a form or listen to a vocalist for cues, then fiddle with their reed and mutter something about not having a good reed.

It ain't the reed, guys. It's the guy blowing on the mouthpiece. Get comfortable with him.

[Bill Mecca]

agreed HPS...agreed.

One question came up as I was reading through this rather entertaining thread, where did the idea come from that says synth reeds require a different embouchure?

I've played both cane and synth with equal dexterity and have not found the need to change my embouchure, unless of course I chose the wrong strength, but that would be true of cane as well. ;-)

[Vortex]

HBS, I agree about 95% with you, the other % I don't address b/c it's really just a matter of opinion. I'm spending less time playing (like an hour or two per horn) because my mouth is still healing from some dental work and I don't want to make it bleed too badly.

Back to the actual subject of reed rotation, I've tried Morry's method and it works pretty darn nice. I've found a good method for dealing with Pittsburgh's humidity is putting some Vodka in your reed soaking juice (I've got a special spice bottle I use), not a whole lot, just enough to sanitize the reed - use some common sense on the subject of dilution to figure out how much. This kills the bacteria on them and keeps anything from growing on them while they're in the little blue mold machiene (which conviently regulates humidity).

Eric, if you don't have one in your residence, a humidity-controlling thermostat is a worthy investment. I shelled out the dough for one when I first bought my house here so that I could put all my guitars on stands without worrying about the humidity warping and ruining them. Likewise, reeds are just fine here. Like they say, if you don't like the weather in Pittsburgh, wait 5 minutes, it'll change.

[Spaz Johnson]

Mister Vortex did, indeed say he could play his best with a bad reed!

"For me there is only ONE kind of performance that I will give - an awesome one. And I don't care what reed I'm using when I give it because regardless of whether or not it's my 'best', it WILL sound (if not necessarily feel) just the same. "

I rest my case!

I know hundreds of people who can sound bad on a bad reed and good on a good one. I know dozens of others who can sound bad on a good reed and worse on a bad one! I've only heard of one single person who sounds good no matter what...God's gift to the defective reed peddler, Vortex! I'd pay a good hunk of change to see/hear that "awsome" bad reed performance!

[Vortex]

I like this quote from the link I posted:

"[I] heard a story about a student at a Rascher master class. He was constantly griping about how bad his reeds were, and wasted most of his time trying to adjust and fix them. Rascher asked him for his worst reed, and then played his entire concert that night on it."

My point exactly - a bad reed won't hold you back. I'm not the only one who doesn't necessarily have reed trouble; if nothing else I'm in league with Rascher. That's not necessarily to brag, just saying I'm not the "...one single person who sounds good no matter what...God's gift to the defective reed peddler...". And I'm not denying that there are unplayable reeds right out of the box - all I'm saying is that a bad reed won't hold you back from doing your best.

:argue: I'm getting sick of this pointless arguing, anyone else agree?

[Spaz Johnson]

It's only pointless because you refuse to see the point!

Frankly, I doubt the authenticity of your little tale, but for the sake of this discussion, I'll concede a second guy who doesn't care about his reed!

But, more to the crux, where, in anything I've written, did I even hint that I had reed trouble. This seems to be a recurrent theme in your replies that leads me to believe that you simply read what you please into my messages and somehow become incensed by what I have not said! (I did attempt to clarify the wayward "Skrood" reference, which, predates any current street slang by at least half a century, by the way!)

You seem to miss the simple truth that: If something happens to my best available reed, I have to use my second-best reed and IT becomes my best available reed!

And like anyone, I COULD play on substandard reeds for the rest of my life and it's quite possible no one but me would be the wiser! But I make that decision not to, and I do so for the highest of purposes...my respect for my audience. If you feel okay about second best, you'll go far in today's MUZAK business.

[Vortex]

It's only pointless because you refuse to see the point!

Frankly, I doubt the authenticity of your little tale, but for the sake of this discussion, I'll concede a second guy who doesn't care about his reed!

But, more to the crux, where, in anything I've written, did I even hint that I had reed trouble. This seems to be a recurrent theme in your replies that leads me to believe that you simply read what you please into my messages and somehow become incensed by what I have not said! (I did attempt to clarify the wayward "Skrood" reference, which, predates any current street slang by at least half a century, by the way!)

You seem to miss the simple truth that: If something happens to my best available reed, I have to use my second-best reed and IT becomes my best available reed!

And like anyone, I COULD play on substandard reeds for the rest of my life and it's quite possible no one but me would be the wiser! But I make that decision not to, and I do so for the highest of purposes...my respect for my audience. If you feel okay about second best, you'll go far in today's MUZAK business.

Whatever. You're like a broken record.

[Spaz Johnson]

And you're like a broken reed!

[Vortex]

I think it's about time we put this thread out of its misery. Any admins viewing this? It's bordering on childishness right now and I don't see things getting any better.

Admin!

[Spaz Johnson]

It would stop with your final message, but you know you're too "mature" to let THAT happen!

Admin! Milk and Cookies please! Vortex has earned a snack before nappytime!

[Dentarthurdent]

Spaz, I just want to say that you're my favourite contributor to this message board. I dont always agree with you but you are so funny! (I mean that in a good way!) I do think however that you have found someone who seems quite easy to irritate and venture to suggest that some of your posts are calculated to annoy that nice Mr Vortex on purpose?? I am right aren't I!! :wink:
Vitriol aside you both have good points - it is always good to share differing opinions - I just hope you two never meet in person!
By the way Vortex - how do we know YOU are not exaggerating when you tell us about your very hard audition :wink: Only kidding - honest - dont start on me next!
I tremble to add my own pathetic anecdotes in such exalted company but would say that I do try to keep better reads for performance. I actually think that using 'less good reads' for practicing helps my chops - the equivalent of a sprinter training by running with weights tied to their limbs - If I can sound good with an OK read I should be smokin' with a good one!! ( this is completely delusional of course since I suck like a tornado).
Peace guys and remember to play nicely.

[JL]

I've enjoyed the repartee (spelling?) also. Anyway, here's my system, for what it's worth:

For practice and rehearsal, I rotate among several reeds (I use cane). For ANY gig I use the best reed I have available, just as Spaz says. I can't think of any reason not to use the best one.

Now, here's a point that may have been missed. There is a difference between cane and synthetic reeds. Synthetic reeds last much longer. For that reason, I wish I could find a synthetic I like. But right now my best reed for my best sound is still cane. Spaz uses synthetic reeds, which last longer, so why shouldn't he just use the best one all the time? Please correct me Spaz if I'm misreading your point on this, but that's how I see it. If I ever find a synthetic reed I like, I'd do the same.

[Spaz Johnson]

Thanx for the thumbs up, Mr Dent!

I never made any reference to practice. Sure, use what ever you have on hand if tone is not important to what you are practicing. I can't imagine anything that I do that could so divorce tone from notes, but I'll acknowledge such a situation could arise for another. But when the audience has been assembled, I'd go for the gold, and don't see any reason one would not!

When I was about 13, (in 1955) my younger brother was a baby and I had to practice in our unconnected, unheated Michigan garage. It was so cold that I had to play with my gloves on and I admit that it was a lot easier when I took them off. But I couldn't say with any certainty that I played any better because of the handicapping during practice.

[Spaz Johnson]

JL

In a way, you've hit on it!

But, actually, during my cane days, a reed would last quite a bit longer than a synthetic does today. I could get several months from a cane reed (and this was six and seven days a week, five hours a night), while I get a few weeks from BARIs (with a much lighter schedule).

The problem was, with cane, I never had a reliable number two reed. And that's where you score your biggest hit!

With synths, the next reed is pretty close, so most are quite good, but there's still only one "best" in cane or plastic!

I've mentioned this before but, my solution to the reed dilema was to buy a brand new BARI hard reed and try it on every mouthpiece for sale in the Detroit area, settling on a Meyer 7J. That was in 1989. I now keep a 7J, an 8J and a 9J in my case as well as a good supply of S,M & H Bari reeds. I primarily use the 8J with a Bari Medium! I still experiment, but never on my audience!

You can hear some of my crap at www.purehonk.com and maybe get a yuk or two as a bonus!

[JL]

Well another assumption smashed.......fine by me. I do wonder if cane reeds used to last longer. Anyhow, I get pretty good mileage out of the Vandoren ZZ 3s I'm using now. I can usually play several gigs with one reed. And I try to keep 2 or 3 good ones around, but it's never a mystery which one is best. As you point out, when the best reed wears out, it's no longer the best one. Rather obvious, at least to some.

Hey, great website. Your playing is superb. You capture my favorite style of tenor playing very well. And I'll take a wild guess that you had your best reed, at the time, on for those recordings!

[Spaz Johnson]

Well, thanx for the compliment!

Some of those songs were actually recorded pre-plastic with my old Berg 130/2 with a Rico 4 (Brown Box...I still have a nearly full box from about 1970. I wonder if there's a market for antique reeds!)

[Vortex]

By the way Vortex - how do we know YOU are not exaggerating when you tell us about your very hard audition :wink: Only kidding - honest - dont start on me next!

You're all right, mate, you seem to have caught onto a lot of what I was saying. It was an audition for the Navy Band. There are many other difficulties to such an audition besides the audition material itself.

JL: "Now, here's a point that may have been missed. There is a difference between cane and synthetic reeds. Synthetic reeds last much longer. For that reason, I wish I could find a synthetic I like. But right now my best reed for my best sound is still cane. Spaz uses synthetic reeds, which last longer, so why shouldn't he just use the best one all the time?"

First, that difference was addressed by me for what with which I could address it, but I'll get back to that later. I'll reiterate though, because I've got nothing better to do while waiting for a ride to arrive. This is a quick overview of my earlier posts - please read the originals for more detail. This is not dogma, just common knowledge with which a lot of sax players and teachers will agree. One of my early statements, exemplifying a well-known fact, is that playing one reed day after day will accelerate its wear-down rate and weaken your chops - as that one reed gets softer and softer, your embouchure grows weaker with it, and subsequently reeds of the same labled strength will feel harder than they should. Any player can see the value and importance of keeping their embouchure well-conditioned and "in shape". Organizing reeds in rotation, typically 4 at a time, will allow the reed material to stabalize after a session; they still get soft over time, but not as quickly. Since no two reeds are exactly the same strength, you don't get used to one individual reed, so your embouchure maintains (and hopefully gains) power.

Let's face it - a Java sounds like a Java, a Classique like a Classique, a LaVoz like a LaVoz, etc. Coltrane always had that "Coltrane" sound regardless of what individual reed he was playing (Rico 5's I believe). Keep in mind we're talking about TONE here. There are subtle differences from reed to reed, but they aren't so distinct as to noticably alter one's tone from the audience's hearing, and certainly not distinct enough to make the player prefer one over the other (I actually enjoy each varience) - if you're like me and take feel, ease of articulation, flex, and quickness of response into greater consideration (like any player needing a reed that facilitates any degree of technique should), then you really shouldn't care about trivial differences like that - you'd go mad before long if you did. Spaz takes an underdog stance here as he doesn't care about the reed's response, only its tone - most players expect excellence from our reeds in other regards and therefore the nuance of individual reeds becomes a pleasant surprise rather than a basis for evalutation and rating.

The embouchure granted from playing reeds in a rotation of 4's allows me to play everything in a box of Java 3's from the Java 2.6's to the Java 3.4's - if the reed needs modified, I fix it, leaving behind the few genuinely defective reeds I find. I'd think synthetics would be even more merciful in this regard as (from what I've heard) they're much more consistent than cane. I noted that I have limited knowledge of synthetics and that things may be different with them (Spaz, that would've been a PERFECT time for you to detail some such differences and actually take this off a negative spin, but nah, why the hell should you?). I've played only a handful of synthetics, just enough to know I prefer the sound and feel of cane.

And now, the last words I will EVER speak to Spaz Johnson:

It could've ended right there Spaz, with a message that was not offensive or indicative at all, but apparently you're too immature to stand down in a futile fight. That comment, "Admin! Milk and Cookies please! Vortex has earned a snack before nappytime!", was COMPLETELY unnecessary and shows you in one hell of a bad light. I've seen posts here before which I thought were bickerous, but nothing like that. Congratulations, you've made a fool of yourself, a proud 60-some year old man, just in a childish stab at someone you don't even know. How's that make you feel? Oh yeah, which makes me wonder, it's all about you, isn't it? Nobody else is allowed to try to reason a point, because oh, it might go against what you think, and of course your word is ABSOLUTELY correct and perfect - after all, you've been playing half a century and admit you never developed a technical ability (the 'words' of a singer), so you must be something of a master. That must pin me as some kind of heretic for trying to logically reason some things out about reed rotation. Never did I aim at being hostile, just discussion. Obviously you didn't want to discuss, just blast your own dogma at full volume then stick your fingers in your ears and cry "LALALALALA...!". You've got a serious attitude problem and I hope you don't inspire others to behave so. I've made this as kind as I can so that I don't (further) sting your precious little ego, and you needn't respond - I won't give it more than a second's glance, as it is better for us both that my viperous tongue doesn't feel compelled to bite. Aufwiedersehen, und beten Sie, dass wir nicht.

[Spaz Johnson]

Oh, what hath youth come down to?!

Once again, you simply read what you like--- if I wrote it or not! And now you seem to be performing the same trick on your own writing!

"he doesn't care about the reed's response, only its tone"
---As if there is some way of separating the two!

"(I actually enjoy each varience)"
---As I imagine I would---if I had no goal...no target tone!

"(Spaz, that would've been a PERFECT time for you to detail some such differences and actually take this off a negative spin, but nah, why the hell should you?)"
---Maybe I'm saving my perfect time for an "important" audience!

"That must pin me as some kind of heretic for trying to logically reason some things out about reed rotation."
---Actually, it pins you more as some kind of delusional tyrant for thinking you have done so!

" "Admin! Milk and Cookies please! Vortex has earned a snack before nappytime!", was COMPLETELY unnecessary and shows you in one hell of a bad light."
---Yes, It would have been more adult and polite to echo your vastly more mature "Whatever!" ---And YOU claim to be the one shining that light! Perhaps the bulb is a bit dim!

"Nobody else is allowed to try to reason a point."
---Are you saying that, because of my weakened embochure, my reasoning powers have been sapped? If your "points" had ANY bearing on MY personal preferences (which is all I've talked about!) they'd be welcomed with open arms, or ears as the case may be! You may, or may not, be making beautiful logic on some subject other that the one that you pretend to be addressing, but you've done nothing to explain why I can't do things differently---only that YOUR way is THE way and mine is ignorant fumbling, destined to cause my jaw to fall off my face!

"I've made this as kind as I can so that I don't (further) sting your precious little ego, and you needn't respond -"
---Your noble gesture has been duely noted! My precious ego thanks you for your restraint! Your Nobel Peace Prize is in the mail!

"I won't give it more than a second's glance, as it is better for us both that my viperous tongue doesn't feel compelled to bite."
---Oh, and you can trust me on this, IT BITES!

"Aufwiedersehen, und beten Sie, dass wir nicht."
---I'm not gonna look that up, but it sounds suspiciously like part of the closing prayer at a National Socialist rally!

[Razzy]

There was something mentioned about practicing earlier, "you should sound bad in practice" or whatever. I have heard this too, but I think what they really mean is, you shouldn't always practice what you KNOW, and you shouldn't sound awesome to yourself. If so, you already know it and there is no point in practicing this thing. You should always have something to work towards with a piece, exercise, pattern, etc., and once you've reached it, you should stop there and practice something new. Then there are of course the exercises to just keep yourself in shape, which should be done periodically, and tone exercises, which have no real end anyway. So, the statement I tend to hear more often is "practice what you don't already know how to do perfectly".

I'd like to add that this is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen. :lol:

[Vortex]

Razzy, you explained what I meant perfectly. Practice isn't for other peoples' ears.

[Vortex]

I'd like to add that this is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen. :lol:

Isn't it? :shock:

By the way in case none of you speak German, my closing statement is a play upon German phrases, translating literally "Until we meet again, and pray that we don't." I'm too used to gary translating my random Deutsche interjections.

[Spaz Johnson]

Razzy wrote:
I'd like to add that this is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen.


Isn't it?



You're half right!

[Dentarthurdent]

This also gets my vote as the most ridiculous thread of the year award! It is a good read though (awful pun intended) :lol:
It is also quite true, in my view, that you should not sound too good in practice. The object of practice is not to give yourself a concert but to work on what you cant do. If you sound great in practice you are probably not making as much of your time as you might. This is probably the subject of another thread though..........