V16 Tenor Piece

[Morry]

The more I play my new V16 tenor mpc, the more I like it. It is nice and full, but can be edgy too. Works great with my SX90R. These pieces have the appearance of being very well made. Altissimo also seems to pop out easily, although I'm certainly no expert in that area. Very good value in a mouthpiece. That's a rarity today.

Anyone else playing one of these on a Keilwerth?

[sinkdraiN]

I play a V16 T95 and it works well for me. I used to use it on a couf. While I was testing out horns I found the V16 mouthpiece to be especally strong on the JKs. I almost bought one but ended up with a Yamaha Z instead. The V16 is a great mouthpiece in terms of versatlity. It works well in a linkish small group setting. When you push fast air through it the V16 blows like a dukoff. I use V16 #3 on it and find the mouthpiece to be very reed friendly.

[KevyD]

I'm very curious to try some V16 mouthpieces on my tenor, but I've been restraining myself, or rather my wallet has.

I got sick of finding reeds for my Sugal Gonz I last winter, which I had been playing for 5 years. I've been through a lot of mouthpieces since then. Most recently, Yanagisawa metal 7, Barone Hollywood 7*, and Ponzol II-V-I .110, all refaced by Norbert Stachel.

All the while, I've been going for a sound similar to what I had going with the Gonz: linkish with balls, not too bright, and a shade contemporary.

The Yani was too dark, and projection diminished the higher up I played. Plus, the piece was physically too narrow for comfort.

The Barone is made of super hard brass and is very bright no matter what I do. Plays great since refacing, but not getting the sound I want out of it.

I'm playing on the Ponzol now. It kind of sounds like the Sugal's little brother. Character is close to what I want, but it comes across too alto-ish. I can't dig in and get a badass tenor sound. This is the smallest chamber piece I've played on, so that could be it. Oh, and you know it has a conical bore! So it doesn't slide on and off the neck right and really limits where you can set the tuning at, which is tremendously inconvient as anyone who's played with stoned guitar players can attest to.

I saw the chamber of a V16 and it looked very appealing, but I did not try it. I am intrigued.

[mangojango]

KevyD-

If you're interested, I have a V16 T75 that I'm willing to trade. Email me at mangojango @ hotmail . com and we can work something out if you'd like.

[KevyD]

Thanks, it's a possibility. I have a friend who also has one he's willing to trade. He's got dibs, but I guess it all depends on what works out.

I'm probably swinging by a music store tomorrow where I can try some out and see if it really is closer to what I want. But I don't think I'll buy one if I can trade for one. Since it's going to get refaced anyway.

[KevyD]

Tried a V16 T75 today and was underwhelmed. Had a similar character to my Ponzol II-V-I, but without anything on the bottom. My Ponzol is kind of resonant, but the V16 didn't have any of that going on. I thought maybe it would because the chamber seems larger, but the baffle is completely different.

Well, now I know.

[Bootman]

The V16's play very nicely once they have been refaced and cleaned up a little. The problem is, that even then they only even seem to go to about 2/3rds the volume of a Lawton or a well set-up Link w/baffle. Tehy are a good middle of the road choice, but there are better options out there.

[MitchP]

Check out Ackerman's lost wax pieces. The "Bob" model is made from a mold from a Florida Link. I have one, it plays great and can be pushed for edge and volume if needed. I tried it next to the V16, the V16 was pretty generic in comparison. BTW, I've always used one piece for everything, small group acoustic jazz, big band, jobbing (wedding bands) and rock. HR Berg 125/3/M for four years and a HR Link until the recent Ackerman switch. As many have said, it's the player not the piece.

[KevyD]

I tried one of those lost wax pieces that was a copy of a 60's Link and was blown away. And I didn't even really like it. It was only a .102 and way too smooth. But I was quite impressed with the quality of the piece. Now I see why people pay the big bucks for those vintage Links.

I had to control the urge to experiment further, but I will no doubt be going back soon as I can afford it.

I too just want one piece to do it all. If I have a piece that lets me speak what I think, then it is versatile enough for anything. I hate switching mouthpieces, it messes you up.

[MitchP]

I too just want one piece to do it all. If I have a piece that lets me speak what I think, then it is versatile enough for anything. I hate switching mouthpieces, it messes you up.

That is the way to go about it, it's finding that piece. The horn as well. Good luck![/quote]

[KevyD]

The horn... Oh, I don't even want to get into that! All I know is I like it better than any other horn I've tried. But I haven't tried too many, because I don't want to find a better horn. I don't even want to think that there might be a better horn out there. First priority is paying off my credit card!

Well, second to finding 'that' mouthpiece...

[KevyD]

Well, I went to Roberto's over the weekend and picked up one of those "Lost Wax" metal Link copies. I don't know whether it is a 60's or 70's because I really don't know Links well. But I do know that I like it a lot! Now I'm trying to tweak the reed/ligature combination til it's just right. This was the best playing of eight I tried.

I have a lot of playing to do on it before I decide whether this is "the piece". But at least I'm not afraid to blow in public anymore!

[MitchP]

Try the metal Selmer lig (silver).

[Nefertiti]

Kevy,
What's the lost wax piece sound like? How does it comcpare to other links or Barones you've played? I've heard they're brighter but I've never played one.

[KevyD]

Nef-

I've only played a crappy 80's stock Link, so I have no basis of comparison with real vintage links. Needless to say, the lost wax is way better than that piece.

It is a bright piece, but it's a different kind of brightness compared to the Barones. I really have no way to describe it. The closest Barone was the Barone Jazz I had.

Let me qualify brightness by telling you that I play on an early 70's Mark VI tenor with old star-booster resonators that is very free blowing and bright compared with older VI's I've tried. Plus my sound on any horn is bright. So a dark piece to you might be a bright piece to me. I'm constantly in a struggle to get some low partials into the 'mix'.

The Jazz was huskier sounding and more spread, but did not project as well as the Lost Wax or the Hollywoods. The lost wax has a big sound, but with a clarity to it that makes it sound more focused, although not compact. The lost wax is marked a .108, and the Jazz was thereabouts.

The facing on the lost wax also feels very well done. It is very responsive, and the altissimo pops out. It's got a cavernous low end and just a real nice large chamber feel. There was plenty of variation between the eight that I tried. Generally, the tip rail is on the thin and responsive side. I saw some lopsided tips, though. My piece has a slight dead spot on middle E, which I haven't quite figured out, but it may be the flaw visible on the left rail. None of the others had this dead spot. But this one played best overall and was the most resonant.

Of the three Barones I had, none had symmetrical rails. In fact, they were quite off, and the altissimo never worked, which is telling. The Hollywood that I had refaced fixed all those issues and was a screamer. Playing the Jazz was always an issue of struggling with the facing, but it worked well enough to play on a few gigs. And the tip rails are generally fat.

I'm still figuring out the reed situation with the Lost Wax. I might have it opened ever so slightly and some of the brightness dialed out of the facing. My lips are telling me there may be a little bit of ick in the facings, perhaps after they were plated, but the nicest facing out of the box of any piece I've tried. Oh wait...it doesn't come with a box!

[jd]

the v16 tenor t45 is my mpc. i love it!! blows the lawtons out of the water in my opinion.i had a bunch of lawtons and they didnt play or sound anywhere near the v16. volume? mine can fill up a room when i play. it can be a cannon or play soft and pretty. i play all types of music and use the v16 for everything. they come stock finished perfectly. i have 2 and they play exactly the same. they dont need to be refaced by anyone. the sound is rich and beautiful. they play easy over the entire range from lush low subtones to altissimo. flat out the best tenor piece ive tried ever. and ived tried tons!! in my opinion the v16 metal vandoren tenor pieces are among the finest produced in todays market .period!

[JL]

I haven't tried the V16, but Kevy, from what you say you are looking for (a "badass tenor sound") you should check out the Ponzol M2. It has more power and a bigger, richer sound than most mpcs I've tried. Of course it's all so subjective.

[KevyD]

Doesn't the M2 have a crazy baffle? I can't get away with anything with a higher baffle than what's in the II-V-I or similar. It's gotta be either a low baffle or no baffle.

The V16 seems like it would be a nice piece from the looks of the chamber. I did not have luck with the one that I tried. But I have been told that it could be refaced more to my liking. Still, I'd rather start with something closer to what I want.

This Lost Wax piece is doing the trick right now. Especially as I've been playing it exclusively and learning which reeds go best with it.

I had a Lawton Icon last winter, but it was so loud it hurt my ears to play! I had to trade it.

[Nefertiti]

I had a V16 T75 for awhile. I found it was too bright for my tastes and lacked character to it. I loved playing it but I recorded my sound with a bunch of other pieces and the liked the V16 the least of all of them. Kind of sterile sounding.

[JL]

Kevy, I probably wouldn't know a "crazy baffle" if I saw one, although those removable ones seem kind of crazy to me (mainly because I tend to lose them). Anyway, regardless of the baffle, I think you have to play a mpc and judge it by the sound and response you get. When you said "badass" tenor sound I assumed you meant aggressive, punchy, full, big "Texas tenor" sound. For that purpose the M2 delivers for me. Certainly there are other mpcs out there that would do the job also.

[rockinsage]

JL,

Just out of curiosity, which tip opening are you using on your M2? I'm going to be trying a 110 within the next few days, in search of that sound you're describing.

[JL]

Yes, 110 is the size I'm using. Lately I've been using Vandoren ZZ #3 reeds, which I'm really liking on this mpc. I used to use V16 #2 1/2, but the ZZs give a bit more body to the sound. This is a fine distinction, however. It'll be interesting to get your take on the M2. Everyone seems to have different results with mpcs. There is also an M2 plus, which is supposed to have more edge and volume, though I can't imagine needed more volume than I get with the M2.

[Bill Mecca]

JL, what horn do you have that M2 matched up with?

[JL]

I have a silverplated '49 Buescher Aristocrat tenor (model 156 with the big bell) and a '65 MK VI. This mpc sounds great on both horns, but it's an especially good match on the Buescher. I play mostly in a blues/funk band, so I like a big sound, but don't like to sacrifice tone quality to get it.

[KevyD]

Nef, 'sterile' is very descriptive of the V16 sound that I got when I tried it. Maybe it could be worked on, but there are probably plenty of better pieces out there.

So I got the Lost Wax refaced by Norbert Stachel and it plays like a dream. It measured .110 instead of .108, but of course that is with expected tolerances and everyone's method is a little different. He said it looked like it was cast from a Florida Link that had been worked on, the corners being flared out practically to wide to seal with the reed. That makes sense, because it is probably "The Bob", a copy of one of Ackerman's pieces, and he likes to flare out the corners. I'll note that not all the Lost Wax pieces I tried were flared out so much, and it still seals, I just have to be very careful and I can't thin my reeds.

He also commented that the silver plating seems very thin and cheap and that it just came right off. No matter really, since I just got the facing redone.

I was right about it being crooked. Turns out the right rail didn't match the left rail, especially near the tip. But not as badly as the Ponzol I had worked on. I could feel it for sure playing the Ponzol, and it cut my lip right open every time. But this piece was more subtle, I could just feel the vibration spots moving around on the reed a little irregularly up and down the horn, and it seemed to fight a little to vibrate. The facing was short, a 48, which is what my Ponzol is set up at, so I just had him leave it there.

But now it plays like magic. Was good before, but super now. He made it a little too dark at first, so he tinkered with it a little and brightened it up to right where I want it. And I can get G4 effortlessly for the first time in my life!

After the reface, it seems a perfect match for ZZ #3. Those reeds can sound bright, thin or squawky on some mouthpieces, but sounds like normal saxophone sound on this piece. RJS 3M unfiled I was using before are too thick and stuffy now, but it may be bad cane. 3S was a little better, but too bland. I had an old V16 #3...not bad, but it felt like the whole thing wasn't vibrating. The ZZ's should be fine, and they have good consistency.

Oh, and Norbert blew my setup on my horn. Holy crap! I've never heard so much sound coming out of my horn! I either want to practice my [synonym for donkey] off or cry. I feel good, he raised the bar for me, so now I gotta get to it.

[Saxophoon]

I just put this on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16234&item=3740744 542&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Its a real player! I used it for a year and a half +. Check in the for sale forum.

If anyones interested bid away.

Thanks!

[Nefertiti]

KevyD,
Does Norbert work on your pieces with you right there in the room. How good is he? I use to have JVW do some stuff for me but I would love to work with someone in person and NY not too far from Boston.

[tinpalaceroach]

i thought norbert stachel was in oakland,cali i want to use his sevices at the purpleroom.

[KevyD]

Nef-

It depends how busy he is and how much work the piece needs. The last few pieces I sat there while he did all the work on them, just changing the facing curve. One piece he worked on ahead of time and then tweaked with me. Some guys come in from Philly.

Dolphyo-

He moved to NYC a few years ago. Bought a place in my neighborhood right near Ft. Tryon Park and the Cloisters. (Which shaves a half hour off the trip to Boston, incidently.)

[tinpalaceroach]

hey KevyD is there any way i can get norbert stachel's email so i can contact him? i only have his former california info and i don't think thats valid unless you know different. its funny i just saw him this may at the cape may jazz festival and norbert was playing baritone sax w/lowA and bass clarinet w/lowC with the new jazz composers octet. david weiss,craig handy,jimmy greene,strickland, davis,etc... played phat originals but they all look bored or tired. i don't think they connected at all with the audience?

[KevyD]

Funny you should mention the octet. That's where I met Norbert, sitting in for Jimmy at a rehearsal. The arrangements were very cool, but the environment was very strict. I'll leave it at that.

Norbert's contact info is current on his website: http://www.purpleroom.net/

[jtrey]

what reed strentgh would you use on a t95?
just got one was using t75 with a 3 1/2 reed

thanks

[rini]

Has anyone tried the V16 T77?

It has tip opening of .109, long facing.

rini

[Hinzaldi]

I have the T77 a couple of years now. I played a lot of pieces, but the T77 felt like coming home. It's the most comfortable and best sounding piece I played in 25 years. Works very nice with fibracell reeds. Gives me a deep sound with a lot of overtones. The longer facing is the secret for me, i suppose.

[Super 20 Player]

I like long facings, so I trialed a V16 T95 and T77 a few months back. These are the two models with the long facing curve (something like 30mm!). I tried the T95 first, with some of my #4 V16 reeds (on the Super 20, of course), and didn't even bother to take the T77 out of the box. Man, I loved that T95. Couldn't afford it, though, so I had to send it back. It is kind of a middle-of-the-road design, but it works really well, especially on big bore horns, like my Super 20 and the Keilwerths that others have mentioned.

[MojoBari]

Why did you try a piece you could not afford?

[Bill Mecca]

He just loves tormenting himself ;-)
not really, but you know what they say about curiosity....

[rini]

Thanks guys. Really interesting replies.

I have just changed to Vandoren ZZ reeds and had great fun testing the reeds on those various forgotten and forsaken pieces in the drawers of my desk. And there were couple of positive surprises. One was a HR Meyer M10M that I bought secondhand years ago and the other was this Vandoren Java T75 I originally picked out of a bunch of three. And it plays really well. Now the temptation is to try to find a metal equivalent to it.
Yeah, there is the V16 T75. Some like it, some like it's ok but a little bit colorless. So I thought maybe a more open and longer facing might help.

V16 T77 or T95?
I've trialed Java T95 and liked it very much. Maybe someday I have to buy one.
But before that I'll try V16, both T77 and T95.

I still have my trusty Pillinger Bronze NYT (.108) as my main piece. But you always have to have alternatives.
Right?

rini

[KevyD]

I wonder if there are any mods that could be done to the metal Vandoren to add color to the sound, such as rounding out the flat walls a bit? I know you can always do a lot by changing the curve of the facing.

I know I don't like the stock one, but I am still intrigued by the possibilities.

[rockinsage]

I'm currently testing a bunch of pieces (SR Tech, Runyons, Ponzol, Links, etc. etc. etc.) and the more I play the V16 the more I like it. I'm not finding it to be colorless at all, I'm using it on a Yani 880 with Rico blue box 3's.

The one I have is a t75, but I'm curious as to what differences I would expect from a t77? Louder due to the larger tip opening, how about the longer facing? Has anyone played both a 75 and 77?

[KevyD]

rockinsage: any luck getting the SR Tech pieces to seal at the corners of the reeds? The ones I tried were the wrong shape...the corners at the tip rail stuck out way in front of the corners of the reeds. Seemed like a shame for otherwise very well crafted pieces.

[rockinsage]

KevyD: Hmmm... I don't remember having any particular problems with the SR Tech Pro, but I'll pay more attention when I play it again tomorrow. I've been playing sax for over 20 years, but I'm no mouthpiece expert. What symptoms would I notice if the mouthpiece/reed weren't sealing at the corners? Thanks for the info.

[Super 20 Player]

Why did you try a piece you could not afford?Because I could. Why not?

[MojoBari]

As long as you enjoy it, go ahead.

[MojoBari]

I just worked on a SR Tech Pro. It does have fairly square corners compared to most reed shapes. Otherwise it is well made.

[KevyD]

KevyD: Hmmm... I don't remember having any particular problems with the SR Tech Pro, but I'll pay more attention when I play it again tomorrow. I've been playing sax for over 20 years, but I'm no mouthpiece expert. What symptoms would I notice if the mouthpiece/reed weren't sealing at the corners? Thanks for the info.

You know, it is hard to say exactly. I am sensitive to things like that now, having experimented a lot with different mouthpieces, reed placement, playing pieces before and after refacing, etc. In general terms, I'd say the better it seals, the more efficiently it plays (it could be a very subtle difference). But it's a balance with a lot of other things, so it's not like you can just adjust one thing out of context from the other characteristics.

When I was trying SR pieces (Legend and Titan), I felt like there was a lot of wasted air and airiness. Obviously, some players would really dig that.

I've been told that the Francois Louis reeds are squarer at the corners. Haven't tried them myself, but they might be a better fit for the SR pieces. Pricey, but good cane. You could try those out.

[sinkdraiN]

I really like my T95. I used to play a T75 but something was missing. I tried a T 95 with V16 #3 reeds and never looked back. Its not fussy and it's a breeze to play.

[rini]

Hi sink,
You didn't try the T77?

rini

[sinkdraiN]

No I never tried a T77. A lot of players play metal links 8* and that was the tone I was driving for. The T95 is the same as a link 8*. I was afraid that the T95 would be too open and difficult to control. I find the T95 to be very easy to play. Having the open facing allowed me to get more "meat" out of it. I like V16s on it the best. However, I have success with ZZ's as well. The ZZ #3 feels softer and less resistant than the V16 #3. I can not get Javas to work on that mouthpiece.

[rini]

That's really interesting! I played for some 10 years hard and heavy gigs around the country with King Super20 Silverneck tenor and 8* Florida Link STM.
I definitely have to try the Vandoren V16 T95. I have trialed a Java T95 and I kind of liked it. Should have bought it.
So I know how the facing feels. It was surprisingly easy to play compared to my STM 8*.

rini

[Super 20 Player]

rini - I played a 7* STM on my Super 20 tenor for a good long while. You'll probably like the T95 V16. Might as well try the T97, too. :wink:

[rini]

You make it sound really tempting, 'super20'. So my list of next to be trialed pieces includes now V16 T95 and 97 and also Lebayle LR (#8 maybe).

rini

[Super 20 Player]

I seem to recall reading on Branford Marsalis' website that he's playing a LeBayle on tenor now. I think Wayne Shorter is, too. Have fun!

[BATMAN]

Branford is definately playing a Lebayle. He uses one in his new record I believe....and sounds GREAT. Much richer, dark sound, and a more like his link sound back in the late 80's, early 90's, but a BIGGER and.....BIGGER!

Ron Blake has also started using a Lebayle. If you don't know of him, he's a tenor player from NYC, and he plays with Christian McBride's band. He told me he really digs it, and I agree w/ him that the sound is a lot bigger and darker than his other pieces.

I don't know about wayne shorter, but I've seen brecker with one. Then again, I see brecker with a lot of mpcs.....hah.