Grassi Professional 2000 tenor Vs. Selmer Mk 6

[Captain Beeflat]

It is often said that the Professional 2000 tenor is the equal of a good Mk 6.
I have a Professional 2000 & had a Mk 6 in the 1980s. To me, with my perhaps failing memory, they seem identical in sound, action and feel....but the memory can play strange tricks.
Does anyone have both a Professional 2000 and a Selmer Mk 6 who can give a direct, if subjective, comparison?

[DetroitDave]

I never had a "Mark IV". (Just teasing about typo in the title :) ).

I have a MarkVI tenor made in 1968 (ser# 159,xxx) and I also own two high quality vintage Grassi tenors, but neither of them is labeled as the "Professional" model which, I believe, was introduced some years after mine were built.

My older Grassi tenor, ser# 12,753, which has been dubbed as a "professional" horn (sans the "Professional" label) by all techs and pros who have seen it/played it, sounds beautiful; but its keywork, ergos, and action are not at all like the MarkVI. It is probably closer to an SBA in that regard. It's also heavier than the VI -- it is built like a tank (but in a good way... like a really nice tank, LOL). The right hand thumbrest is not very ergonomic nor are the flat older style left hand pinky keys, nor the small left hand thumb rest/button which forces a straight up vertical reach to the octave key which wears me out after playing a couple hours straight.

The later Grassi tenor (ser # 15,297) is of the "Jade Rollers" variety. It is a really fun, comfortable horn to play, and much closer to the MarkVI in key layout and design, but still not quite as "in there" when it comes to ease and comfort while playing it. Contrary to some statements I have seen here and elsewhere, it is not a "Mark VI copy." It is its own horn with some differences. But overall keywork and action is much closer to the VI than to the earlier Grassi.

By no means am I disparaging these Grassi horns. They play great, sound wonderful, and were built to last and last. I would even say that the notes below low D of both Grassi horns -- especially the older one -- sound even fuller and richer than the VI (using same mouthpiece setup, etc.). They speak more easily, as well. My MarkVI (like many of its vintage) can tend to "warble" a bit on low B and even sometimes on low C -- this seems to be largely mouthpiece dependent for me (some do, some don't) -- and is always "cured" by dropping a wine cork or plastic tenon stopper in the bell. Neither Grassi ever warbles down low. Bell note pianissimo is much easier on the Grassis. Fast bell note fingering goes to the VI.

Middle D on the VI, is generally just a tad "stuffy" and somewhat sharp. Middle D on both Grassis sounds cleaner/brighter and is much closer to dead on pitch with no embouchure change required. Interestingly, on the VI I can "cheat finger" middle D using the high D side key without the octave key and lip it up to proper pitch as easily as I can "relax" my embouchure get the same note in tune when fingered normally. Neither Grassi can do this... if you try to sound middle D using only the side key it is hopelessly flat. I know that's a substandard way to finger that note, but with the VI it is possible and in certain fast passages it can come in handy.

Middle B and C# (open) with the VI is dead on. But both Grassis play these notes flat. In fact, to play middle B in tune on the Jade Roller Grassi requires also venting the lowest r. hand side key. Oddly, the rest of that horn plays well in tune top to bottom with fewer intonation differences than either of the other two horns.

Overall sound of midrange would have to go the the Mark VI I think, but only by the narrowest of margins. B3 and higher are little easier to "find" pitch center on the VI but sound fuller on both Grassis. The VI palm keys are better designed, the Grassis (especially the older one) require a more "forward" reach although I'm sure if I added palm key extensions this would not be an issue.

So in regard to overall sound, I'd say the two brands are so close that few if any would quibble about it. Both Grassis offer slightly more resistance (with same mpc/reed setup) than the VI, which seems very free blowing, but I don't find this small additional resistance to be a negative thing. If anything, I think it helps the highest notes sound fuller. Not sure if that makes any sense to you, but that's how it feels to me.

Both Grassi's keywork feel "tighter" and a bit more precise than the VI probably because I think they have far fewer playing hours on them. Yet re: "playablility," there IS a certain je ne sais quois about the VI that is hard to pin down exactly. Here's how it feels: Whenever I have been playing the VI for a while and I put it down and pick up a Grassi, I think to myself "Wow, this Grassi plays very well and sounds great." I don't really notice a huge change (except for ergos of the older Grassi's left hand pinky as mentioned above). Then after playing a Grassi for several days or weeks when I pick up the VI again it's like, "Wow, so this is how a horn is really supposed to feel!" I have no way to explain this feeling in any quantitative way but it happens every single time I switch back to playing on the VI.

For the record, a couple years ago I also picked up a vintage Grassi alto (ser# 8867 -- a "closet" horn found in Oklahoma after somebody's Grandma died). I had it rebuilt and it sounds great, too! Ergos same as the older tenor. I am not much of an alto player to begin with and my only other alto is a nicely kept old YAS-23 so I can't compare the Grassi alto to a Selmer. I will say the Yamaha fingers, blows and plays "easier." But the Grassi alto sounds better than the Yamaha, hands down.

[Edit: I have read that the "Jade Rollers" Grassis were not originally marketed as "Pro" horns. That may be true but I will say this: the one I have is a really swell instrument with a better sound than any "intermediate" horn I've ever tried.]

[Captain Beeflat]

DD.
Abject apologies for the title error....how very embarrassing. :(

Congratulations on a most comprehensive report; most instructive and informative.
I know exactly what you mean about increased resistance, one can put more into the high notes before they crack. I recently hauled out, & dusted off, my Grassi & was surprised at it's relatively high resistance compared with either my R&C R1 or Big B.
The reason for the thread is that I had forgotten how good the Grassi was...I was, in effect, playing it again for the first time & something in the back of my mind was suggesting Deja Vu. I realised later that it reminded me so much of my old Selmer Mk. V1.
I wonder now whether the Professional 2000 is even closer to the Mk V1 than your Jade Roller, because using side D without the octave key on my Pro 2000 is smack on. One also wonders whether subsequent key work changes brings the Pro 2000 even closer to the feel of a Mk V1.
From your excellent, and appreciated, reply I realise that I was not too far off the mark.

[milandro]

you can edit your post and change the title of the thread ;)

The Grassi af that generation ( Jade rollers) are not quite copies of the Mark Vi (aside from the G shield looking like the S shield on the neck and the bell to body brace being a ring like the Selmer). It is only later that their key-wor k became truly balanced action. Having said that, all being of a more primitive design they play nicely!

[Captain Beeflat]

you can edit your post and change the title of the thread ;)



Thanks Milandro....I have changed it to an Arabic 6; it's safer. :)

[tictactux]

you can edit your post and change the title of the thread ;)



Thanks Milandro....I have changed it to an Arabic 6; it's safer. :)

Then again, an 1V isn't quite the same as an IV :D

[J.Max]

I have some thoughts here, but I don't have time to write them all up. I've owned both, so when I get a chance I'll do a little write up...the short version is that the Grassi is more free-blowing but the keywork is actually closer to an SBA than a Mark VI because they don't have tilting spatula keys, and the placement of the lower stack is a little more offset.