Barone Jazz 8-dissapointed?

[zappysax57]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

[Blowhard2]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

If it was not sold on SOR, then that sounds a reasonable exchange fee to me - once returned, it will be effectively Secondhand ......
One problem we have "over here" in UK is not only the limited availability of specialist MP's to try , but that we have to take them over the internet, mostly on trust , pay up front , and then try to resell them if we don't get on with them !
Of course you may find some in a retail outlet, often at twice the US rates
( or more!!). It's well known by us as "Retailers Rip off Britain " !!

Sorry if you feel hard done by- but think of our problems too.

Blowhard2

[al9672]

If you don't like it and want to sell pm me(if you are willing to ship to Australia)

I got a jazz 6* and wish I had got a larger one (been using a rpc 110/Link hr 9)

[gary]

Are you sure about the $75.00 fee, zappysax57 because Phil has defended his "no refund" policy many times here by adding that if someone is not satisfied with what they have received, rather than issuing a refund, he will tweak your mpc until it's to your satisfaction.

[BarrySachs]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

Phil does outstanding work! Top level hand crafted quality. But his designs tend to lean toward the bright side. $75 is a good price to have him customise the baffle to your liking. Just tell him what you want.

[zappysax57]

Are you sure about the $75.00 fee, zappysax57 because Phil has defended his "no refund" policy many times here by adding that if someone is not satisfied with what they have received, rather than issuing a refund, he will tweak your mpc until it's to your satisfaction.

Yeah called him up. I am debating it because it seems to play great now, but yeah just a tad bright.

[Jazz House]

How long have you played it for??

It might be a matter of just getting used to it. Maybe your previous gear is carrying over.

[Pete Thomas]

I think this is always something you need to be aware of when buying custom mouthpieces, it's a risk. I have bought several from various really good mouthpiece makers (including Phil Barone), and you just have to accept that it might not be for you and that a bit more tweaking might cost more or you sell it on and continue your search for the ultimate piece.

$75 seems reasonable for someone of Phil's reputation (probably includes shipping anyway). As has been pointed out also it is worth spending time getting used to it, try different reeds and persevere before giving up. A mouthpiece often doesn't grab you straight away as it's different to what you had before and may need a different approach.

[rleitch]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

You know your own sound, but my advice would be to hold on alterations. I had the same feeling about the baffle in my Jazz piece and did, finally, get it lowered/reduced. It's a darker piece now, but I think a bit more resistant and a bit less reed friendly than Phil would like it.

I think the idea with Phil's pieces is that you have to give it time; if, after some time, you still want it corrected, you might find Phil more receptive.

My .02

R.

[Buck Laughlin]

it is worth spending time getting used to it, try different reeds and persevere before giving up. A mouthpiece often doesn't grab you straight away as it's different to what you had before and may need a different approach.

Good advice.

[max]

A few things:

- if you didn't get it directly from Phil Barone, there's a very good chance it was customized to the original owner's specs. I got a secondhand Jazz with a similarly high baffle. If yours is like mine was and you've been playing a Link or other Link-like low baffle piece, you'll know right away by the sound if you want that baffle reduced.

- if you're basing this on how it looks, take some time. These pieces have a pretty radical table angle - comparing it to a Link visually is just going to twist your brain up. What still looks like a pretty radically long hump in my reduced baffle piece plays like a dream. The way the reed angles away from the baffle makes it play like a much lower baffle than it looks like it is.

- if you're like me and want a nice dark, rich, fat sound, don't despair: these things can really deliver. Figure out if you need to spend more time with it or if it really needs to get the baffle lowered - if it does, it's worth having it done whether you have Phil do the work or someone else.

Hope it works out for you!

[clarnut]

You might also try it with some different reeds or a different ligature. I have sometimes found pieces that I didn't love initially until I got the set up right.

[MusicalCharities]

Are you sure about the $75.00 fee, zappysax57 because Phil has defended his "no refund" policy many times here by adding that if someone is not satisfied with what they have received, rather than issuing a refund, he will tweak your mpc until it's to your satisfaction.

Yeah called him up. I am debating it because it seems to play great now, but yeah just a tad bright.

Not experienced with the jazz model (not yet, still waiting on mine), but one thing I've noticed about the work he did on my vintage soprano model is that it can be both bright and dark, and the sound I get out of it really depends on me quite a bit these days. And this can be tricky, sometimes I can tell where my muscles and throat are way too tight and contribuiting to the brightness. If I make a conscious effort and take in more mouthpiece as suggessted and loosen up/relax a bit, things defintely get more freeblowing/darker as I need.

Granted, it isn't always easy for me to loosen up, some days I am more tense than others, but I have noticed that this contributes quite a bit to the sound I get when I play. Maybe give it some time first to get used to it before you write it off, it might just be an issue of getting used to the piece.

I used to make the mistake of thinking that I'd be able to tell within just a few minutes if a piece was great or not, but quite the opposite is true. There is something about a good piece, IMHO that requires a lot of time spent with it to familiarize yourself with all of the subtleties of the mouthpiece--then you can let yourself make an educated opinion after more than just a few minutes/hours/days. I've quickly learned to abandon the whole "magic mouthpiece" idea, nothing will be magic in my experience, but familiarizing yourself (thoroughly) with the spectrum of what is out there will be the best help in the long run.

[Pete Thomas]

but one thing I've noticed about the work he did on my vintage soprano model is that it can be both bright and dark,

To me , this is the ultimate goal in a mouthpiece. It's what I strive for. And it's what most players actually need - versatility = expression = music.

[Harvey]

My opinion on this is you need to play it. A lot. Then play it some more. When you feel like you've played it enough, then play it some more.

I have a New York he makes. It's a very standard part of his line up but the thing can do quite a bit. I think it gives at least as much range as anyone could expect, probably more.

Remember that a custom cut mouthpiece is going to be better at some attributes than others. That's using a single embouture "shape". If you try new things you can vary some things in the long run.

But what's neat about the mouthpiece I got from Phil is that its more versatile than I expected. It gets you further to where you might want to go than some of the standard pieces I've tried. (which aren't too many but you get the idea) With Phil's mouthpiece that I have, I can change up how I want to sound. Point being that it takes time to see what the mouthpiece is capable of and you can learn that if you do your part.

Is it the end all be all? Honestly, is any single mouthpiece able to be all things to all people??? Play around with your structure. Learn to play your embouture by Phil's method and vary it up a bit too. Have fun with it. Good pieces aren't generally easier to play (initially) but they offer the potential to gain a very specific sound if the user is willing to experiment with embouture and, well, head stuff lol.

Harv

[Pete Thomas]

My opinion on this is you need to play it.

This is beginning to look like the consensus. Phil Barone makes superb mouthpieces, he is a master at mouthpiece manufacture and refacing. Give it a good trial for at least a month with different reeds. Then think about it.

[-88-]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

You know your own sound, but my advice would be to hold on alterations. I had the same feeling about the baffle in my Jazz piece and did, finally, get it lowered/reduced. It's a darker piece now, but I think a bit more resistant and a bit less reed friendly than Phil would like it.

I think the idea with Phil's pieces is that you have to give it time; if, after some time, you still want it corrected, you might find Phil more receptive.

My .02

R.

HEY.....HERE'S A WIN/WIN SOLUTION. Since Zappysax57 feels his is too bright and rleitch sounds he may have yearnings to return to the stock configuration, why don't the two of you trade.

[Phil Barone]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

Zappy,

I'll be happy to make the adjustment no charge if you bought it from me. But the baffle is nowhere near the size of a Guardala, not even close. The model I started with was a Super Tonemaster from the New York period, what folks refer to as the "double ring".

I took the table down which raised the baffle and the whole chamber up in relation to the reed then I filed the baffle down. The prototype was VERY dark but because I raised the chamber it was also very responsive. Then I made a mold of that. That was the first period which I don't think you have.

The second period was the exact same piece, also made using the lost wax method only I reamed the chamber out so it was larger. These played more free blowing and were louder and fatter while the first model was darker and more focused.

The third version was like the second version only I bored out the model from which I make the mold. This way i didn't have to bore each mouthpiece out because it was already done to the blank so it saved one step. It was also a very difficult step because it's such a hard piece to hold.

The fourth model is a CAD model of the third model only we reversed engineered using CAD/CAM then CNC machined them from brass bar stock. There may be a little bit of more baffle visable but nevertheless they are a pretty dark piece. I can lower it no problemo. Just give me a call and we'll discuss to what extent you want it darkened.

Phil 212.686.9410

[Phil Barone]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

Phil does outstanding work! Top level hand crafted quality. But his designs tend to lean toward the bright side. $75 is a good price to have him customise the baffle to your liking. Just tell him what you want.

Andy,

By no stretch are the Jazz and Hollywood pieces bright by todays standard. Also, I purposely over-build them so they can be made darker.

Phil Barone

[zappysax57]

Well after playing (and implementing someof phil's and your guy's techniques, as well as some advice from james carter) I have determined the piece has a great open sound, with highs and lows. All i had to do was to stop muffling it by taking in a bit more and opening up. thanks to all that posted!


Dissappointed? No.

EDIT: I don't mean to bad mouth phil, it was a matter of adjusting and first impressions.

[Sigmund451]

Taking in more mouthpiece...important business, especially on Phil's pieces since its a major part of his design and playing concept. He has written a lot about it here in his tone exercises.

[BarrySachs]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

Phil does outstanding work! Top level hand crafted quality. But his designs tend to lean toward the bright side. $75 is a good price to have him customise the baffle to your liking. Just tell him what you want.

Andy,

By no stretch are the Jazz and Hollywood pieces bright by todays standard. Also, I purposely over-build them so they can be made darker.

Phil Barone

Right, that's what I meant.

[JonL]

Well after playing (and implementing someof phil's and your guy's techniques, as well as some advice from james carter) I have determined the piece has a great open sound, with highs and lows. All i had to do was to stop muffling it by taking in a bit more and opening up. thanks to all that posted!


Dissappointed? No.

EDIT: I don't mean to bad mouth phil, it was a matter of adjusting and first impressions.

That's all it takes. A little time and patience, and talking to Phil about any problems you might have with one of his mpc's will save anyone a lot of time and heartbreak. I suppose getting advice from a guy like James Carter couldn't exactly hurt...too much.

It would be really interesting to start a thread about mpc's players didn't seem to like, didn't play them long, but then wish they had them back again later on. My own list would be embarassing, and there'd be several of Phil's on it. (I hope you're not reading this, Phil!)

$75 for a tweak by Phil himself? Very good deal. I got two J8's and had Phil tweak one of them. He asked two or three questions about what I was thinking, took about two minutes, and then we talked about anything but music for a while. A few weeks later, when the mpc came back, it was the huskiest, frothiest, most barrel-voiced thing I ever heard. I've been playing it for several months now, so it pretty much does what I'm thinking/hearing.

Anyway, zappy, enjoy that mouthpiece and blow the hell out of it for as long as you like it.

[zappysax57]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

Phil does outstanding work! Top level hand crafted quality. But his designs tend to lean toward the bright side. $75 is a good price to have him customise the baffle to your liking. Just tell him what you want.

Andy,

By no stretch are the Jazz and Hollywood pieces bright by todays standard. Also, I purposely over-build them so they can be made darker.

Phil Barone

Phil,
How much time would you recommend living with the piece before considering adjustments?
thanks

[gary]

Well after playing (and implementing someof phil's and your guy's techniques, as well as some advice from james carter)...

Could you share what that advice was from James Carter? It might help others trying to adjust to Barone mpcs. Also, was that advice directly from JC or via Phil?

[zappysax57]

Well after playing (and implementing someof phil's and your guy's techniques, as well as some advice from james carter)...

Could you share what that advice was from James Carter? It might help others trying to adjust to Barone mpcs. Also, was that advice directly from JC or via Phil?

Directly from james himself...he's on facebook sometimes! I can't remember the pieces he was playing, but they were all custom. Anyway i asked him how to adjust better to more open pieces and the main thing he said, as phil did, was to take in more mouthpiece.

[gary]

Thanks, zappy.

[rleitch]

I recently (and finally) got my barone jazz 8, the supposed darkest model. I feel it has a bigger spectrum and has a big sound, but its too top heavy on brightness. The baffle is almost the size of a brecker guardala! not what i was expecting... phil says it would cost $75 to have him change it...

You know your own sound, but my advice would be to hold on alterations. I had the same feeling about the baffle in my Jazz piece and did, finally, get it lowered/reduced. It's a darker piece now, but I think a bit more resistant and a bit less reed friendly than Phil would like it.

I think the idea with Phil's pieces is that you have to give it time; if, after some time, you still want it corrected, you might find Phil more receptive.

My .02

R.

HEY.....HERE'S A WIN/WIN SOLUTION. Since Zappysax57 feels his is too bright and rleitch sounds he may have yearnings to return to the stock configuration, why don't the two of you trade.

Nice!

Actually, one thing Phil told me was I should buy a second Jazz piece before having mine altered. This seemed a bit nuts to me at the time, but in retrospect (and if I were a pro), that's exactly what I would do. This is serious gear!

BTW: if you can stand the ugliness, here's a pic showing where my embouchure has gone on the Jazz piece. I'm using a selmer lig now; the FL kept getting stuck in my teeth:D

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=1282889&postcount=27

[gary]

Actually, one thing Phil told me was I should buy a second Jazz piece before having mine altered.

Of course he did.

This seemed a bit nuts to me at the time, but in retrospect (and if I were a pro), that's exactly what I would do. This is serious gear!
Rory ;) how many metal mouthpieces have you broken so that you can't use them?

Even so, how many of us don't already have at least one mpc in the drawer that could stand in for our primary piece if it did get trashed?

[rleitch]

Actually, one thing Phil told me was I should buy a second Jazz piece before having mine altered.

Of course he did.

This seemed a bit nuts to me at the time, but in retrospect (and if I were a pro), that's exactly what I would do. This is serious gear!
Rory ;) how many metal mouthpieces have you broken so that you can't use them?

Even so, how many of us don't already have at least one mpc in the drawer that could stand in for our primary piece if it did get trashed?

Hey Gary,

I think you missed my point a bit bro!

I honestly don't think Phil was trying to sell me another mouthpiece, and
it has nothing to do with one getting broken.

Rather, it's that the piece I got is exactly the piece Phil designed. What I think he was saying is that once it is altered, you can't put it back.

And yes, I'd be a bit embarrassed to reveal how many mouthpieces I've got, although I love all of them!

Cheers,
rory

[gary]

Understood Rory, but my second point also refers to my (implied) first.
i.e. if one has a good back-up piece, there's no real need to buy a second Barone Jazz in case the one you send off to get worked on doesn't come back the way you like it. That also presupposes that if you send a Barone to Phil to get adjusted that 1.) it might come back to you not the way you want and that 2.) Phil's adjustments can't be undone. Readers will likely read the "buy a second mpc" one of two ways. ;)

Nice embouchure BTW. Do you have to relax your glottis to get it all in?

[Mike F]

You look good Rory, but how much did your sound change when you took that much m/p in?
I can take that much m/p in if I want to and I can feel that it works, especially on my Hollywood, but personally I don't like the way it changes my sound. It also seems to give me less flexibility sound wise.

[rleitch]

You look good Rory, but how much did your sound change when you took that much m/p in?
I can take that much m/p in if I want to and I can feel that it works, especially on my Hollywood, but personally I don't like the way it changes my sound. It also seems to give me less flexibility sound wise.

Thanks man!

Actually, the biggest change I've noticed with the Barone so far is in the dynamics--this thing goes wherever you want it to volume wise--and flexibility.

I think the look is a little deceiving: Phil's Jazz tenor piece is really quite stubby, so even when you move toward the top of the bite-plate (which is where I'm aiming), you're not really swallowing the thing. Actually, the feeling is more like the "open mouth" feeling you get with a higher beaked HR piece (like a Tone Edge or V16HR), combined with the slim all around profile of a STM. It's very comfortable and you end up, I think, supporting the reed in just about the perfect spot with your bottom lip.

The one issue I do have with this one: it will squeak like a ****** if you do something it doesn't like. It seems especially sensitive to unevenly moistened reeds and any kind of overbiting--think Deliverance:yikes!: