Another mystery Dolnet?

[claybo77]

OK all you sax sleuths... I've got this sax in front of me, and looking into it for a friend. When I first saw it I said, "Wow, I've never seen such unusual key guards... really art deco!" Made in France. Stamped: 9, "little 3", x,x. I assume serial # (93xx). Please note the less than 10,000 ser # and the 3 is indeed about half the size of the other numbers {!*+/?*!}

I have been to Saxpics and found some things that match though. Perhaps I can put the link for pictures of the left hand pinky table which almost perfectly matches this one:

http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=1395 . Series one.

Well I don't know how to make that "click-on-able", but that gets you there if you copy and paste it. Also it is the ninth image if you get to that set of 12 images.

Like I said, the left hand pinky tables of the later horns is dissimilar. The one above is almost identical to the one that I am looking at.

But the keyguards are not wire, like the aforementioned series one which does match the Left pinky . The keyguards are the art deco style like in this series two:

http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=1399

Image 4 of 4 shows the guards which once again are almost identical. The felts of mine are built into the key cups as they appear to be here.

And the key guards are attatched via a screw, which is screwed straight down into a post, which is soldered to, and perpendicular to, the body. As it appears to be in image 1 in this set of images:

http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=5102

Also, when comparing the IMAGE of an alto, series two's neck with mine; both the angle and construction seem to be identical. Admittedly not a very scientific way of comparing, but all I can do at this point.

I guess that the main issue is that I have personally never seen keyguards that look ANYTHING like the ones in front of me with the exception of these Dolnets. And the L pinky table is a near perfect match as previously mentioned. And the case is so '20s 30's. And it has a nice brass, neck-receiver-plug. And eveything is so well made. And the case is REAL leather, with key locking latches. And everything STINKS in that sort of 20's way... SMILE.

And there is a pawn ticket from a military-airbase-town in it.

And If you have bothered to read all this way. I'll finally tell you the name that is stencilled on the Made in France body. But don't just instantly snap,
"Oh, it's a Malerne..." I have "extensively" looked at everything I could see about Malerne and NO PIECE fits! The STENCIL NAME is LINTON. LINTON

Now the experts say WHAT?????

Thanks in advance. I have spent HOURS and simply had enough. SMILE...

If I weren't relatively computer inept; I could have some pictures that would have made all this simpler. I therefore apologize for my ineptitude.

But I think for folks who have had more exposure to French horns, this may be a NO BRAINER...

Thanks again,
Clay

[JayeSF]

Clay...no pics is just downright cruel.

Lintons were made by a few different sax makers, actually, depending on which era we are talking about.
R.Malerne made 'em.
Orsi also made 'em.
It's certainly possible that Dolnet made some (if so, that's new information for sure).

Sounds like Dolnet-esque keyguards, but, again...w/o pics...we are all just talkin' in the dark.

Snap some pics....then, when you post a reply on this thread...

1) look for the 'Manage attachments" button below the message window.

2) Click on that, then you should be able to upload some pics from your computer.

3) if you get a message stating "files exceed maximum size"....then go to an free image resizing site such as http://resizr.lord-lance.com/ and shrink the file, then try uploading again.

...the suspense is killing me, BTW ;)

[milandro]

Bruce Bailey should know a lot about them he worked at Linton

[claybo77]

Just wanted to add some pictures (not 2004),

I have had to go to the local university where a knowledgeble student showed me how to add these. I hope that they can be enlarged so as to be visible for inspection.

If I had not had help from the student... there would still be nothing.

[milandro]

aside to the key guards there is not much else that would point to the Dolnet provenance and even the key guards are slightly different than the Dolnet proper ones.

I think we really need Bruce Bailey here:?

[claybo77]

And since I was limited to 5 photos; I'll try to add some dark, almost impossible to see pics (not 2004).

Also, besides the keyguards, if one were to review the initial post in this thread, I mentioned my opinion that the Left Hand Pinky Table is ALMOST identical to the L. P. Table of the series one I referred to. Use the link to compare the two now that I have successfully added the previous UNdark pictures.

Also, I once again apologize for the darkness of these NEW images. Perhaps the wizardly among you can magically brighten them up. These young students have marvelous minds that I am jealous of.

Thanks again,
Clay

[claybo77]

Just wanted to thank you all for your timeand consideration,

I may not have mentioned it, but the horn is an alto...

And by the way, I put on some latex gloves, fought off the stench (odor) last night, and after literally (oops) "hot glueing in" a pad that fell out; Played the thing. It didn't have the screaming volume of my '55 Super 20 Alto. It was kinda stuffy, but I assume that the "God knows how old" pads, are not sealing too well. But it did play in tune... Another clue it might be a player???

Since I added some pictures, admittedly not extensive, I would like to put forth the proposition that this STYLE of keyguards is a really good indicator, identifyer, give away, for this maker (Dolnet). If anyone has any experience with seeing a similar guard on ANY other, MADE IN FRANCE sax, that is extremely well made; please chime in with what that (or those) horns were.

I have looked at the Saxpics site again, and throughout the various years and even within models there was a great degree of variation as to the keyguards; while mostly keeping the 5-sided angularity.

Sometimes the (cup felt) appears to be the adjustable, screw up down type, mounted to the guard. Sometimes it is mounted to the keyguard and is NOT adjustable. And other times it is built in to the key cup, as they are on the horn I have before me.

What I am getting at, is that over the years there seems to be no predictable pattern in the guards.

And adding to that, the previously mentioned L. H. Pinky Table is something that I, personally, have not seen before, except on the Series One. Is this also another give away?

Having seen only one of these, I am no person to judge; and really appreciate all of your help.

Thanks again,
Clay

[bruce bailey]

When I was with Linton in 1971-74, we had saxes from France but they were gold lacquer with nickel plated keys and looked nothing like the ones photoed here. Ours were probably Pierret and I can assume the one here would be from earlier, probably 50s or 60s.

[milandro]

then I guess that we would never know! The LH table is weird and definitely Conn-like, never seen anything like that on even very early Dolnets.

[electricfigue]

I have seen an early Dolnet alto serial # around 19xxx, with a similar left pinky table (but not identical), with the bell engraved "Henri Dolnet SC Breveté SGDG PARIS Modele Euphone" .
The engraving SGDG means in French "Sans Garantie Du Goverment" wich means in English "With No warranty from the Goverment".
This inscription is usually seen in very old french saxophones like Gautrot Marquet (Pre- Couesnon saxophone maker). I believe this one is not so older, but maybe 1940.

[JayeSF]

Wow...nothing Malerne or Orsi about that horn....and those were 2 suppliers to Linton at some point.

(Wow Bruce, you worked at Linton ? Cool)

I agree with Milandro, although the guards themselves look very Dolnet...I mean, hell, the bell area looks identical to your link to sax pics BelAir...but nothing else really does (?)

That pinky table is a....Whoa !!!! Huh ???? Yeow....... It's OLD, that's about all I can say on it.

Can you snap a pic of the octave key mechanism/octave stem ?

[claybo77]

Thanks for the comments,
I'll see if I can get some more pics here soon. I have literally spent hours, two different times looking at ALLLLL of the Dolnet pictures on Saxpics, plus many other places and makers. I did not bookmark them, but I have found similarities and/or matches between ALMOST every feature on the horn before me, and at least one, IDENTIFIED Dolnet.

From: 1)the keyguards themselves, 2)the soldered keyguard to bell/body mounts, 3)the left hand pinky table, 4)the right hand pinky cluster, 5)the bell/body brace, 6)the detail on the bell/bow/body joints, 7)left hand palm key shape, 8)octave key; ALL these details I have found an EXACT, or extremely similar, MATCH. 6/8 of these are exact matches.

I don't have it right in front of me, but I thought of another match, right palm keys... And yet another detail: the gold, nitro cellulose lacquer is highly crazed (crackled) with age. The color is identical to my gold lacquer (not crazed) '55 King S20. Perhaps this crazed gold lac is what some have referred to as sparkle/gold lac? As the finish does indeed seem to sparkle; compared to my S20...

In coming to a conclusion... my supposition/hypothesis, after TOO much thought is this:

Dolnet styling/production was moving from what we are all referring to as Series 1, into Series 2. They had a "mish-mash" (variety) of Series 1 parts lying about, but not enough to make a full "run" of Series 1 horns in any volume.

Linton needed only a few saxophones (historically more oboes/bassoons).

Dolnet said to themselves, "HUMMNN....We will never have to look at these "Half-this/Half that" horns again if we ship them to America... Let's throw-together all our LEFT-OVERS; give Linton a bargain price; and start all over again with our TOTALLY Art-Deco stye horns."

Thus, I believe this Linton horn, and who knows what small number of others, came into being.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????
AND LASTLY_________Once again, I put forth the question, "Has anyone seen a keyguard ANYTHING like the "art deco, part octagonal, squared off, Dolnet-style keyguard on ANY horn other than a Dolnet ????????????????

All your continued thoughts and interest are appreciated,
Clay

[JayeSF]

....you could be right...it could be a "missing link" horn between Series I and Series II/Belair.

That pinky table does look like a Series I.....now that you mention it.

I think you are right, there.

[milandro]

yes, I did see Dolnets with other names (generally French) but I cannot remember any other than Jean Cartier at the moment but since you asked I retrieved some information from the SOTW archives by using the good old search function
http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/Search.html?cx=partner-pub-4665045860349433%3A6nfhyj-63iw&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=dolnet+stencils&sa=Search

Jean Cartier, Monet, Paul Buescher, La chambre............

It is very possible that this particular stencil was stencilled with using odds and ends left over in the factory. I think this must have been a common practice anywhere. I have a Buescher Getzen Capri tenor that has parts from several different types of instruments.

About dating the instrument it would have to have been produced before 1940 since I very much doubt that there were many such transactions with the country being at war since 1939 (France and the rest of Europe were already at it when in 1941 the USA entered the conflict)

[claybo77]

Good day all,

1) In response to a post by milandro, in which he said that he had not seen a similar Left Hand Pinky Table. Please refer to the link below and look at the 9th image of LHPT.

http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=1395

2) I have spent some more time looking up other french saxes of hypothetical similar time frame, and noticed that a '55 Selmer MK6 has a near identical feature. That being the bands that cover the solders between the bell/bow/body. Those of the sax before me and the 6 are near identical.

I have tried to get some images of this feature and put them below. If you can't see what I'm referring to; look up an early 6. Notice the scroll-ish band going around the bow. That scrolling is soooo.... close. Wonder who did it first... And upon closer examination of the 6 pics and the Linton in front of me, I realize that the Scrollish-ness I am referring to is a 2-D attempt to represent a double helix, ala a strand of DNA. Take 2 cords and twist them together voila: bell/bow/body band artistic detail.

Please note that this is a feature of this horn and "early" sixes. Somewhere after '64 this detail changes on the Selmers...

I hope the pictures can be seen.

I am editing this post to add a link where one can find some selmer 6's like I am referring to:

http://www.robertoswinds.com/view_product.php?prod_id=2444#prodThumbnails

3) I would still like to have some feedback on the issue of the seemingly unique keyguards of the Dolnet. 1 of 2 considered opinions:

A) NO I have never seen a keyguard any thing LIKE the art deco,
partial octagon, squared-off; shall we say funky, guard.

B) YES I have seen a similar style guard on a _____ ______ ___
brand sax from __ decade.

Thanks,
Clay

[claybo77]

OOPS,

I forgot while I had the camera out that JayeSF wanted to see pics of octave key bits.

Also got the neck.

Did I mention that this thing LOOKS well-built? Notice the key guard mounting posts...

So I think between all the pics there is a darned good sample of what this tooter is all about...

[milandro]

Good day all,

1) In response to a post by milandro, in which he said that he had not seen a similar Left Hand Pinky Table. Please refer to the link below and look at the 9th image of LHPT.

http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=1395


Cheers :)

[JayeSF]

A) I haven't ever come across any other old horns with that keyguard design......outside of Dolnets. :|

[spiderjames]

There are several features that resemble Dolnets other than the keyguards. The diamond shaped mounts for the keyguards. the oval base for the other keys and the guard for the alt F# key. Although minor details all of these are similar to the ones found on the Universal Dolnet stencil I had. The picture of the neck kinda through me though, it looks like a Leblanc.