what series is this dolnet

[robzy]

hey i've got this dolnet series n° 19643 the guy I can get it from says its "before royal jazz series" , anybody got any idea what I should think of the sax? i can't try it cause he's at the wrong end of France so... he says a "luthier" has seen it through and replaced the pads and mouthpiece uh...cork? is that what you call it in english?
anyway heres a picture of it
(http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/71554359.htm)

see ya!

[limpan2]

I can't see the picture. Only me?
You have pictures of the dolnet models on this site:
http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&c=968

[electricfigue]

The photo is not available for me either.

[robzy]

ok here's one, sorry do you know any basic information about royal jazzes? (im also looking at another sax series royal jazz) = is it worth buying it blindly ?
anyway obvious question but if you have any extra info ...
its joined to this post hope you can get to it cause i cant

[JayeSF]

I see it now. That is a hecka OLD horn, and unfortunately there aren't any images of the bell-key side...

Interesting thing is, wire keyguards only appear on Series I horns, so it could be '30's or so....

Series II already have the detailed sheet metal guards. Only Series II and I have that bell brace, though....

...check out www.saxpics.com, Dolnet photos....

I mean, if that old...that's relatively rare....

I DO hope a luthier didn't repair it, though.....

...because someone with a nice old guitar or mandolin probably wouldn't take it to a sax tech, right ? ;)

[milandro]

I do not see any picture both on safari and on firefox ( the forum has been showing some peculiarities linked to the browsers in the last few days), however Royal Jazz Dolnets are very good and relatively scarce saxophones. If they are not marked as such they could be a Bel Air in disguise (there were Bel Airs that were not silver, in fact, outside of Europe, silver or nickel plate was not a very popular finish ). Some Royal Jazz have the addition of a high F# key which is not present on Bel Airs (at least I've never seen one!) while it was, almost, standard (some don't have it) on the late M70 models (easy to recognise because of their bell sharply pointing left)

[JayeSF]

On a Mac w/ Firefox it works fine for me....hmmmm....

I'd still venture to guess it's pre-Series II.....

You know what ? Contact member Uwe Steinmetz via this Forum...he could give you a more definitive answer....

[robzy]

thanks guys, now this other saxohpone, the "royal jazz":
the royal jazz i'm talking about is silver-coloured, sax pics doesn't talk about royal jazzes ? does that mean they were quite obscure? i'm not really trying to collect old unusable saxes and turn them into atractive table lamps, :) i do want to know if i will be able to play it!
general question:
what are the advantages/disadvantages of "silver"-coloured saxes compared to "normal" golden looking ones in terms of sound, metal, laquer finish...
thanks for your help guys,
i cant actually try the sax but here are a few pictures:
word doc, hope you can see it

[milandro]

now I see the pictures. The Royal Jazz is not an obscure horn at all, on the contrary! It is a refined evolution of the Bel Air featuring (in this case) at least two special keys (left and right palm group) one is the High F# the other one I don't know (it also has a G# trill) . It looks like it is nickel plate or a very shiny silver which is less common because most Royal Jazz that I have seen are lacquered brass. It looks a beauty and I wish I had found it before you did! ;) :)

[JayeSF]

Just to clear any potential confusion. The first link to pics is NOT of a Royal Jazz horn, it is of a different model (the one with wire guards).

I think the first one to be a Series I, although I cannot say for sure.... since saxpics.com only has pics of a Series I alto, not a tenor.

This second set of links is the Royal Jazz.

Robzy, I have never seen one of these. It is spectacular. It is obscure in the sense that it is kinda rare, rarer than a Belair certainly...

Regarding your questions:

1) old horns make amazing players. Just because it's old and rare, is no reason not to play it.

2) It is either silverplate or nickel-silver plate. No appreciable difference in sound. As far as care, a plated horn just requires a bit more hand-poliching with a proper cloth for plating (i.e. don't use a polishing cloth for lacquered metals).
A Plated finish is on top of bare brass. So these horns are basically brass, with a plating applied.
The big advantage is...no lacquer...no lacquer wear over time...so you avoid all of that unpleasantness....

IMHO, no "negatives" to owning a Silverplate horn.

I agree w/ Milandro...dammit...if I had come across this one and it is in even half-decent playing shape, I would jump all over it (as long as seller isn't asking a ridiculous price). It is a beauty !!!!

[robzy]

thanks guys,
so some nice sax huh?
well, thanks for your advice anyway
-how can you know if this is a high pitch or low pitch?
-on the series number it says "C" that doesn't mean its a c sax, does it?

[milandro]

the significance of letters in the SN by Dolnets isn't clear. Someone claimed that this meant that they were sold by a French shop but that is, in my opinion, nonsense . One thing is for sure it doesn't mean it is a C melody and it doesn't mean it is or not a HP horn (I have seen them with or without).

Anyway, the best way to tell is to measure it or at least stand it next to a LP horn. if it is smaller by several centimetres (so it will be very noticeably smaller) don't even bother to play it, it is a HP. If you want to play it tune your mouthpiece to play the horn in tune with itself and it won't be in tune with anything else or place the mouthpiece to play the usual note that you tine your horn to and you will see that you have to place the mouthpiece far too much towards you and not towards the horn to the point that the mouthpiece would almost fall off, now that note is correct but no other note will be!

I don't think that Royal Jazz can be HP. I have only ever seen Bel Airs HP.

[robzy]

ok great!
thanks for the help

[JayeSF]

.....the best way to tell is to measure it or at least stand it next to a LP horn. if it is smaller by several centimetres (so it will be very noticeably smaller) don't even bother to play it, it is a HP.

Wow...I never knew that.....8-)

[milandro]

are you pulling my leg? :)

both bore and length of a HP are smaller than a LP. That's why some folks think that in buying a HP alto they might have stumbled upon an F mezzo (which is also smaller than a alto!) , in fact I know someone who has a Dolnet HP alto and is convinced that he has a Dolnet F mezzo (which doesn't exist because we know that only Conn ever made mezzosopranos !)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezzo-soprano_saxophone

[robzy]

what do you think for a beginner's sax, would it do the job?
I heard, they are hard to manipulate (hard to play fast) because of their build and keys
it also seems here in france, they have a very bad reputation of not beeing that great even when the company was up and running, so now that they're at the very least 30 years old, its apprently worse as old saxes don't match old wines in their positive development with age, but rather old cars :D

thanks for your advice,
robin

[milandro]

Dolnets are very solid and built well (especially these upmarket models), they are heavy but not heavier than a modern sax (often times those are very heavy). The mechanics, if in good order and well oiled, are not " slower" than any other good sax. I would absolutely go for it and you can profit from the bad press to knock down the price a bit. Should you ever wish to sell your horn try abroad (especially when the American economy will pick up again), remember, this model is full of optional keys and was not the middle of the road model which Dolnet was selling.

[JayeSF]

Milandro...no, seriously...I had never thought about it...the length. Makes sense though (also, I have never actually come across that situation where there was any doubt as to whether it was a LP).

Robzy....do you mind if we inquire..how much is the Royal Jazz being sold for ?

Personally, I have a BelAir Tenor and an old Dolnet Bari....and while their keywork is vintage, they both play just fine..nothing uncomfortable, no odd reaches, no ergonomic weirdness going on. They play just fine, their action when properly adjusted is just fine....

Robzy....it is a very cool horn...a bit rare (so is the older first one you linked to, for that matter) and a Royal Jazz is a Tenor which one doesn't see much these days. If it is in good shape, I would still be inclined to suggest you grab it.

As Milandro says, if it doesn't suit you... you could almost certainly make your money back if you sell it.....

[robzy]

couldn't really tell you w'ere debating it for now, and its in euros... :scratch:
well heres the serie number, we're getting to the final buying stage but i would like to know how old the thing is:
series n° is: 57667 G (or maybe C? i'm pretty sure its a G)

I know what sax pics has to say about it but he doesn't mention ANYTHING about royal jazz, so it doesn't tell me much, I think its associated with belair (comparing the serial numbers) because belair includes my n°

could anyone give me any vague idea when the sax was born?
thanks for the help

[milandro]

the fact is that nobody knows anything for certain about the Dolnet serial number system (we know it was a system integrating all the instruments brass and woodwinds together) so we don't really know much about when certain models were made. A list has been compiled according to some people recollections and receipts but there is no telling of how long a certain model had been sitting in a shop after its production date.

The Royal jazz should (IMO) have been made in the '60 (and went on sale for some time while other models were being made alongside those), the M70 followed in the footsteps in the '70 (hence the name) and at least for some time was sold alongside the other models until the closing of the factory in the '80.

[robzy]

thanks

[robzy]

hey guys other question comming up now , you might get a bit sick of this,
I need a proper mouthpiece, and the sax is not sold with one, or at least for the moment.
what is a good mouthpiece I could use for that kind of sax, knowing that I'm a beginner, puffing into a berg larsen metal i heard is too hard, so any suggestions?
and what price would that mp cost?
thanks for the help,
robin

[milandro]

It very much depends from your personal idea of the sound that you want to obtain. Dolnet tenors are,IMO, rather husky in their nature.
If I were you with, probably, not too much experience with a tenoror with a saxophone altogether, I would start with something simple and easy, something like a Yamaha or a Selmer in order to get familiar with the horn and its sound, then, if you are not happy with it , Most people upgrade theur first mouthpieces simply for looks, I certainly did, and at a certain point I thought that I wanted a metal mouthpiece and reached for the first Berg Larsen that I could lay my hands on.......don't do that!
Now, many mouthpieces after, I settled with something that I like but it took lots of trials and errors.......mainly errors!

[robzy]

selmer S80 C* seems to be the most neutral and beginner-like on the market, (still some 300€!!)
thanks for the advice!

[JayeSF]

Oh, my gosh...DON'T spend more than 50-100eur on your first mouthpiece !!!!

Yamaha, Hite, Brilhart, Rousseau, etc. all make good beginner/intermediate m'pieces for a good price. Granted, they may not lead you to the ultimate tone you want to get out of a horn, but they all are good quality, inexpensive m'pieces far superior to the cheapie crap out there....
What you want to do as a beginner is strike a good balance between playability, sound, and price. These will all do that.

[milandro]

300€!!! where do you live? I will make a note to avoid buying from that country. If you live in France they are leading you on, the S80 shouldn't cost more than 125€!

However a Yamaha is a perfectly suitable mouthpiece and it costs 30€|

[robzy]

where do you think could one find a dolnet that easily? france! :razz:
and i found some here and there that go for more reasonable prices,
over ebay, how dangerous is it to buy mouthpieces ? I mean soundwise.
cos' i found one or two going for 60 -80€

[milandro]

well, we have plenty of Dolnets (not Royal Jazz though!) in Holland too, but yes you said that you were living in France. 60-80€ is a current price here in Holland too (in good state and with ligature and cap!) for a s80 Selmer.
A yamaha 4c or 5c is not a bad choice at all!