Couturier Saxophones

[LaPorte]

As announced:
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-10-1018-42-40.jpg
THE MUSIC TRADE REVIEW December 9, 1922

[VintageSaxGuy]

That ad will be going into the music room shortly :).

Right now the stripped body of my Couturier sop. is cleaned and polished, and when I finish cleaning up the keys I will post a few pics of it in this new thread.

Since getting the soprano, I ran across a Lyon & Healy Couturier model lacquered tenor for sale not too far away from me that I'm considering taking a look at. Does anyone happen to have one of these that could share their opinions about?

So, LaPorte...when is the book going to come out? ;)

[geauxsax]

We need a picture gallery!:D

As an aside, did Couturier make a baritone?:?

[bruce bailey]

I've never seen the bari.....The soprano I had was one of the best I ever played. Nice balance and it has the thumb ring I desire. I sold my gold plated alto but still have the silver alto (L&H Courturier) for sale or trade. I am selling off the Holtons and Courturiers to concentrate on Conns and Martins.

[LaPorte]

That ad will be going into the music room shortly :).

Right now the stripped body of my Couturier sop. is cleaned and polished, and when I finish cleaning up the keys I will post a few pics of it in this new thread.

Since getting the soprano, I ran across a Lyon & Healy Couturier model lacquered tenor for sale not too far away from me that I'm considering taking a look at. Does anyone happen to have one of these that could share their opinions about?

No Couturier tenor in my collection ...
If you won't be satisfied, let's talk about it.;):D


So, LaPorte...when is the book going to come out? ;)

The stuff is nearly complete, but the English/American language is not my mother language. Some delicate details of the Couturier history need (are needing?) precise wording ... http://forum.saxontheweb.net/images/icons/icon9.gif

[LaPorte]

We need a picture gallery!:D
That's a great idea! I'm afraid I will need some help.:)

As an aside, did Couturier make a baritone?:?
That was one of the most thrilling questiones during my researches!
For the period E A Couturier was president of the E A Couturier Band Instrument Company (until 1924) I couldn't find any indication of a baritone saxophone. Nevertheless there is a Couturier baritone saxophone (made in LaPorte)! One is stripped and needs some attention.;)

Let me come back to that question.

[LaPorte]

C-melodies first!
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-10-1217-07-41.jpg
THE MUSIC TRADE REVIEW November 4, 1922

[LaPorte]

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/f1_12.jpg
The C-Melody was the first E.A.Couturier saxophone on the market.
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/f6_3.jpg
This flower is a reliable distinctive feature on Couturier saxophones of the early period to be found on all Couturier saxophones 1922-1923.

[jazzbug1]

Many lacquered brass saxophones from the 1920s or earlier were once silver plated. In the 1940s-50s, silver plate was considered old-fashioned and these horns were stripped in a relatively simple process using cyanide. You will always find a tell-tale speck of silver on these horns by looking outside or inside. Furthermore, the engraving will be dull, as it was done on top of the silver layer, which is now gone. My guess is that these horns may sound a bit brighter than the original sound.

[LaPorte]

Many lacquered brass saxophones from the 1920s or earlier were once silver plated. In the 1940s-50s, silver plate was considered old-fashioned and these horns were stripped in a relatively simple process using cyanide. You will always find a tell-tale speck of silver on these horns by looking outside or inside. Furthermore, the engraving will be dull, as it was done on top of the silver layer, which is now gone. My guess is that these horns may sound a bit brighter than the original sound.

Aha, you just revealed the mystery of my Lyon&Healy "Inspiration" C-Melody (King) which has about 2% sliver plating left on the body. Thank you for that interesting input, Mr. Jazzbug!

That reminds me to Alan's 'Big Ugly':

http://www.cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/gallery/big-ugly.htm

a project horn as well.

[LaPorte]

Do you remember the floral engraving of the C melody above? I'm sorry the photo does not show the 'Couturier Rose' completely:
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/mvc-532f.jpg


http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/mvc-535f.jpg

A stencil with such a low serial number? Saxophones given to Gretsch just at the beginning of production (ca. November 1922)?

[LaPorte]

Here is given the answer:

"M. G. Lathrop, secretary and sales manager of
the E. A. Couturier Band Instrument Co., La
Porte, Ind., visited the trade in New York on
Monday and Tuesday of this week. Mr. Lathrop
has been visiting the trade in Eastern territory.
While in New York he had a conference with
Fred Gretsch, president of the Fred Gretsch
Mfg. Co., which has just taken over the whole-
sale representation of the Couturier line in East-
ern territory.
Mr. Lathrop reports that the new Couturier
conical bore saxophones, which have just been
added to the line, have given a great impetus to
the sale of Couturier band instruments to deal-
ers. He told a representative of The Review
Tuesday that since adding the saxophone to the
Couturier family of band instruments a great
many new dealers who were unable to handle
Couturier instruments in the past have now
come into the fold."

The Music Trade Review July 1, 1922

[LaPorte]

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-10-2022-12-49.jpg
MTR July 1, 1922

[LaPorte]

I wonder if the strictly chronological way presenting the stuff is the most satisfactory for you and me and appropriate to a saxophone discussion forum. I have a lot of material around the Couturier/Lyon&Healy topic - about four times the stuff about Holton. The way started would take months to be completed.

My suggestion is to talk more about certain questiones e.g. someone wants to know more about his saxophone, if it is really a Couturier, which model, when built ...like similiar done in 'The Forgotten American Manufacturer'. The following model-timeline might help to classify the subject that we are talking about at the time.

What do you think about it?

[LaPorte]

Couturier Related Saxophones:

1. Made by Couturier August 1922 - September 1923
- Distributors (Gretsch, Whaley Royce, others)

2. Receivership October 1923 - March 1924
- Lyon&Healy 'American Professional', 'Inspiration'
- "Exchanged For New Buescher"

3. Lyon&Healy April 1924 - 1929

3.1 'Couturier Model'
3.2 'Artist Model'
3.3 'New Artist Model'', 'The Perfect Curved Soprano', New Artist Baritone (exchanged for Conn)
3.4 'American Professional'
3.5 'American Artist'
3.6 'Stencils' ?

4. 'Collegiate' by Holton March 1928-1929/30

5. Beaufort American - the last Couturier Saxophone 1930/31

6. Serial Number Chart

[LaPorte]

I wonder if the strictly chronological way presenting the stuff is the most satisfactory for you and me and appropriate to a saxophone discussion forum. I have a lot of material around the Couturier/Lyon&Healy topic - about four times the stuff about Holton. The way started would take months to be completed.

My suggestion is to talk more about certain questiones e.g. someone wants to know more about his saxophone, if it is really a Couturier, which model, when built ...like similiar done in 'The Forgotten American Manufacturer'. The following model-timeline might help to classify the subject that we are talking about at the time.
What do you think about it?

Any opinions?

[soybean]

This is fascinating information, Felix. Thanks for posting it. One thing that strikes me is their brag about having perfect scale and intonation. I wonder if these saxes were really any more in tune than other saxophones of the era. Also, did the overall quality suffer in the later Couturier horns?

[LaPorte]

This is fascinating information, Felix. Thanks for posting it. One thing that strikes me is their brag about having perfect scale and intonation. I wonder if these saxes were really any more in tune than other saxophones of the era. Also, did the overall quality suffer in the later Couturier horns?

I gave a Lyon&Healy 'Symphony' alto (Artist Model) from 1926 to my repair tech. Testing it after complete overhaul he said that the horn has an astonishing good intonation -"just like a modern saxophone". As the body didn't change, I think all Couturier's have good intonation given the key hights are properly set, pads without 'domed' reflectors.

Someone here said (in a different thread) that his COLLEGIATE is not as solid made as his Lyon&Healy's. I agree in respect that it might not be as carefully manufactured as a L&H. However I could not find a difference in the material used as he claimed it was more lightweight.

A different question is if the changes done by L&H - which mutated the 'Couturier Model' to the 'Artist Model' - were real improvements. I'll come back to that subject.

Felix

P.S. I'll be back in ca. 10 days.

[LaPorte]

Addition to my last reply:

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-10-2320-57-53.jpg

MTR January 31, 1925

[soybean]

Fantastic find. I can see it now: "Rudy Friml signature model with stones." But seriously, who knew that Friml played the sax?

[LaPorte]

... But seriously, who knew that Friml played the sax?

"COMPOSER IS SAXOPHONE FAN
...
Sheet music dealers familiar with the compositions
of Rudolph Friml will be interested in the personal
fact that the noted composer is addicted to the inno-
cent joys of saxophone tooting...."

Presto (January 17, 1925)

[LaPorte]

Couturier Related Saxophones:

1. Made by Couturier August 1922 - September 1923
- Distributors (Gretsch, Whaley Royce, others)

2. Receivership October 1923 - March 1924
- Lyon&Healy 'American Professional', 'Inspiration'
- "Exchanged For New Buescher"

3. Lyon&Healy April 1924 - 1929

3.1 'Couturier Model'
3.2 'Artist Model'
3.3 'New Artist Model'', 'The Perfect Curved Soprano', New Artist Baritone (exchanged for Conn)
3.4 'American Professional'
3.5 'American Artist'
3.6 'Stencils' ?

4. 'Collegiate' by Holton March 1928-1929/30

5. Beaufort American - the last Couturier Saxophone 1930/31

6. Serial Number Chart

The thread will soon be continued with 2.

Is anybody out there who owns a saxophone stamped in small letters:

EXCHANGED
FOR NEW
BUESCHER

[LaPorte]

Before starting 2. I should complete
1. Made by Couturier August 1922 - September 1923
- Distributors (Gretsch, Whaley Royce, others)

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-11-0119-30-22.jpg
MTR December 16, 1922

In addition to "Made By/Couturier/LaPorte/IND" Couturier saxophones sold by Whaley&Royce were signed:

WHALEY ROYCE CO.
LIMITED
TORONTO.*

*found on alto saxophone #8807

[LaPorte]

Couturier alto #9328 (1923)
Original finish (burnished gold)?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400081414207#ht_9320wt_1167

[LaPorte]

C melody #7894 nickel plated. Refinished?
Nice reproduction of the front engraving.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-C-MELODY-LO-PITCH-COUTURIER-SAXOPHONE-MARTIN_W0QQitemZ380176848640QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item58844e5700

[Walter Webb]

My Couturier radar is beeping wildly, and look, it's that whimsical clown face again, this time C tenor sized and a bit nightmarish:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300365542653&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_1182

Could a LaPorte made horn have a serial number this high: 200476?

[LaPorte]

Could a LaPorte made horn have a serial number this high: 200476?

3. Lyon&Healy April 1924 - 1929

3.1 'Couturier Model'
3.2 'Artist Model'
3.3 'New Artist Model', 'The Perfect Curved Soprano', New Artist Baritone (exchanged for Conn)
3.4 'American Professional'
3.5 'American Artist'
3.6 'Stencils' ?


With introduction of the 'NewArtist model' - mostly engraved with a poorly caricatured face of a native american (no 'clown face') probably related to a movie of the mid twenties - early in 1926, the serial numbers jumped from 19,xxx to 200,000, note #68 in 'The Forgotten American Manufacturer'.

Although that is a true Couturier saxophone - except the keywork which was (imo dubiously) 'improved' by L&H - the name Couturier was not mentioned anymore. L&H proclaimed the 'Artist' saxophone as being developed by their own. Couturier built a saxophone for the best players, L&H marketed them near exclusively for beginners with ads as stupid as possible. Unfortunately the application was changed accordingly, imo a violation to that great and unique saxophone. Finally that proved to be a wrong track.

My personal favourite, a Lyon&Healy 'Couturier Model' alto is virtually identical with the 'Made By Couturier' saxophone and has the same good (older) keywork.

[bruce bailey]

I have had serial numbers over 201,000.

[LaPorte]

I have had serial numbers over 201,000.

You are right. What I wanted to say is

in 1926, the serial numbers jumped from 19,xxx to 200,000, from one day to another. Then continued and went to 203,XXX in ca.1929. Do you agree?

"All Couturier saxophones ...
4. have serial numbers in the range of 6,xxx and 19,xxx as well as 200,xxx and 203,xxx ... ." (#68 The Forgotten American Manufacturer)