Super 20 vs Mark Vi

[JL]

Ok, someone help me out here. I keep hearing that the Super 20 is the horn for blues and R&B. Yet many prominant R&B players, including King Curtis and Jr. Walker play(ed) Mk VIs. I'm speaking mainly tenor, but even alto players like Hank Crawford & Maceo Parker play Selmers.

So my question is pretty obvious. I realize only those players listed above could tell me why they aren't playing Super 20s, but perhaps someone here could explain what, if anything, makes the Super 20 a better R&B horn than a MK VI. One reason I ask is that I have a shot at a Siversonic tenor and I realize I have to try it myself, but a brass bell version I tried awhile back certainly didn't outblow my Mk VI. Thanks for any insights.

[hbl]

Well, JL, I hate to admit it but I've got 'em both! My Super 20 tenor is a 1962 model with the silver bell and the VI is a mid-60's tenor w/ original lacquer. The Super 20 blows with VERY little resistance (when playing it, this is the first thing I always notice - effortless!) and has a more resonant sound, e.g. more buzz, a thicker aural presence, so to speak. The VI blows with greater resistance, has a warmer yet smaller sound.

Personally, I think both horns are versatile enough for ANY musical setting (although the 20 may be a little too much for classical playing). Again, a lot depends on the physical characteristics of the player and the mouthpiece, too.

Bottom line, and it has taken me YEARS to admit this, I think the Super 20 sounds better then the VI - I like the VI's ergonomics, but I can't deny that the Super 20 just has a better all around sound. That's why my VI is my backup horn! There! I said it!

[mr00420]

While I have read many posts about S20s being great for Blues and R&B, I don't think anyone considers them primarily Blues horns. Charlie Parker played an S20 (along w/ many other horns) and Cannonball Adderly played one his entire career. Both are very versatile horns, but I guess Kings in general have a bigger sound which might make them more "appropriate" for Jazz or Blues. The MVI is an all-rounder that seems to fit in well for any purpose.

[JL]

Thanks for the replys. I guess I better try that Silversonic!

[alsdiego]

Just as a matter of interest. Cannonball Adderly did NOT play the S20 "all of his career". He actually switched to a Mark VI some time in the early 60's.

BTW, my horn is a 1964 S20 alto :)

[JL]

Good point, mr00420. But of course Bird and Cannonball were two of the greatest BLUES musicians who ever lived. I'll grant you they took the blues to some very sophisticated heights, but everything they played was drenched in the blues.

I think any horn that is good for R&B would be very suited to most styles of jazz as well. My Mark VI really roars (I would not call it a small sound), so I'd be very impressed to find something that has an even bigger sound. I don't necessarily mean volume only, rather volume plus a fat, rich tone quality.

[mr00420]

Jl, I wanted to say the same thing in my fist post, but it sounded a little paradoxical and I didn't want to create more confusion... but yes, while B. and C. were both two of the greatest Jazz Alto (or general) sax players ever, their sound is derived completely from the blues. There are licks from almost every Bird solo that would fit appropriately into any standard blues tune. P.S.: I didn't know Cannonball switched horns in the 60s... do you know what sessions he plays on the MVI?
BTW: While I've played both of these great horns, I don't either one. I have a King Zephyr which is very similar to the S20, but minus the engraving.

[JL]

Yeah, I understood your point and I agree; I'm sure the Super 20 is a great jazz horn, but I'm trying to get a handle on how it compares to a VI. I actually didn't know Cannonball played a VI....always thought of him as a Super 20 player. Maybe Selmer gave him a real good deal. It would be interesting to compare his sound on the two horns.

I'm actually looking at tenors, though. I'm gonna play test a Silversonic 406xxx. I believe that one is post-double socket neck. Anyone know if the double socket made much difference? In any case, since I already have two tenors, the silversonic is going to have to outblow my Mk VI for me to consider buying it.

[Keith Ridenhour]

I owned a Super (silverneck, brass bell) a couple of years ago and it got sold as soon as I played my first The Martin Tenor. The Martin didn't have quite the volume of the super (it has more than my Mk 6 however) but it has a dark, very resonant sound that can easily be pulled back for jazz or overblown for RnB. I've done jam sessions where it's me and a couple of 6's and they are eating the mic while I can be heard over them 3 ft from the mic. There definately is a core to the 6 sound that isn't in my The Martin but I don't always want to sound like a thousand other Mk 6 performers. Just my 2 cents. Oh and BtW, my the martin that I gig with now cost 600 bucks and I put in a 400 dollar overhaul. It is fast and big at a third of what I paid for the Selmer. K

[JL]

Thanks Keith. I've heard similar statements about The Martin. The plot thickens. Now I see why some of you guys have a closet full of horns! It's interesting that the brass bell Super 20 I tried awhile back didn't have the power or volume of my VI....musta been the setup. I'm trying the Silversonic this week.

[Mike Ruhl]

hbl said a mouthful, but I especially appreciate this comment:

Personally, I think both horns are versatile enough for ANY musical setting (although the 20 may be a little too much for classical playing). Again, a lot depends on the physical characteristics of the player and the mouthpiece, too.
As an old Super 20 tenor player, I've been saying the same thing for years.

Design-wise, the primary difference between the tenor versions of the Mark VI and the Super 20 is in the bore/taper. The neck curves are different (Super 20's is rounder/tighter, while the VI's is flatter), and the bow section (Super 20's is broader, VI's is narrower). One of Selmer's design goals with the Mark VI was to create a horn that projected better. This implies more resistance.

[PB]

Just try to push all the air you have through a Mk6 and a King. The only horns I had who could handle this were the Chu`s and 10m`s and the King S20s. Great horns that need no microphones. But after so many years I play again a Mk6. Just try both and buy both!!!

[JL]

Well I finally got to try that Silversonic tenor. It was under less-than-ideal circumstances, between sets in a crowded bar, and the horn definitely needs a complete overhaul (which is why I didn't play it on stage). In spite of all that, what a sound! Now I think I understand. I gotta try the horn again in a more "controlled" situation, then see if I can make a deal, since I'll have to shell out maybe a grand to get a total overhaul.

[addissax]

JL... THE most important part of the instrument is the player. Got a
S20 SilerSonic '69 and have been very pleased with it for the last
30 or so years...However, I recently heard a guy with a YTS62 and
a Runyon MPC...Great tone, intonation, volume, except my S20 was
a little louder. Last year, I decided to try a new horn..Ref. 54 and
875 Custom...I kept my S20. I know guys who wouldn't part with their
MkVI's for anything, and one who loves his KWST90BG. A lot also
depends on the setup and what works best for you. A good player, with
the right setup can make a Bundy sound great.

Best advice.... try different horns with a setup that you are comfortable
with and pick the one that gives you what you're looking for.....The S20
is an excellent choice, if it works for you...many of us in south
Louisiana have played 'em for years....check out Jon Smith, formerly
of Edgar Winter's White Trash.......

[JL]

I hear what you're saying addissax; the horn is just a channel, so to speak. I love my MK VI and an Aristocrat I bought recently. Both those horns really help me get the sound I want. I could definitely live with the VI exclusively. But the instant I played that Silversonic I heard something that really hit home.....I'll know for sure when I try it again.

[T.S.]

Although Cannonball briefly played a MK VI sometime in the early 60's, he played a Super 20 for most of his career and indeed was King endorser until his untimely death in 1975. (This is easily verified)
He owned two sopranos, a King Marigaux (SML) and a Mk VI and would use both depending on what sound he wanted.
He was using a silversonic alto in the last few years of his career, although he had used several brass belled versions as well.

[alsdiego]

T.S., that's my understanding about Cannonball as well (brief stint with the Mark VI alto in the early 60's). I strongly suspect he sounded just like Cannonball on it. I'll bet we would be hard pressed to tell the difference in a blindfold test :D I think it really boils down to how the player feels about the horn. In the early 60's I owned a Mark VI.. it was incredible. But when I went back to music after a 40 year layoff, I bought a '64 Super 20 and had it overhauled by a real tech wizard (Bob Scarrf in San Diego). I absolutely love it. It seems somewhat brighter than the Mark VI, with less air resistance. Needs LOTS of air going through it to really make it sing, but what a sound!

Al

[mr00420]

Does Bob work over at Oceanside Music?

[alsdiego]

I think he used to... now's he's at Musicraft on Ronson Rd., in the Kearny Mesa area of San Diego... what a neat guy, as well as a real wizard on vintage horns. BTW, he used to do all (I think) of Charles McPherson's work when he was playing the Super 20 several years ago. Alas, Charles switched to a Mark VI :(

Al

[benjamin1979]

i heard the later serial number of super 20 tenor aren,t that good. am i true? mine is 613314 and manufacture around 1985

[Mike Ruhl]

Sadly, yes. Check out this link for a history of the King saxophones:

http://www.saxontheweb.net/Goodson/King.html

[mr00420]

Ben.- that'll probably affect how much money you want to put into that horn. It should still be a pretty good horn, though. It'll definitely be LOUD once fixed up.

[Mike Ruhl]

It should still be a pretty good horn, though. It'll definitely be LOUD once fixed up.
I agree. Even though it's a late-model horn, and lacks some of the refinement and unique features of the earlier Super 20s, it still has the bore taper of a Super 20, and that's the biggest part of it. The old King Cleveland student line horns from the 50s and 60s can be turned into screamers too.

[mr00420]

I'll testify to that... I used to play the hell out of my Cleveland, until it became so unplayable that it wasn't worth the cost of fixing it up again. It's in permanent retirement now, but I owe that horn alot. Great sound... the action kind of bites though.

[Mike Ruhl]

I'll testify to that... I used to play the hell out of my Cleveland, until it became so unplayable that it wasn't worth the cost of fixing it up again. It's in permanent retirement now, but I owe that horn alot. Great sound... the action kind of bites though.
Well, they were student horns. I started on a Cleveland alto back in the late 60s. Sold it while in college. Wish I had it back.

[addissax]

A friend of mine asked me to try his new Cannonball last weekend,
I was impressed....played it for about half-a-set, then swapped back
to my Super 20...same setup...The 20 was like getting back into a
familiar comfortable rocking chair because the key layout is different
than the Cannonball, but it wouldn't take long to adjust.,,,,I just
can't justify the $$$$ for a new horn....

[Mike Ruhl]

Ditto. I've tried several Cannonball Big Bell tenors. They're very good, solid horns, but after nearly 30 years with my Super 20, there's just no point.

[John Gilmore]

Wardell Gray is probably the most underrated tenor player to ever blow.

He started playing a Super 20 in late '47 and and played the same model & serial number range until his tragic death in '55. He could swing hard with some mad bop or make people melt with a lush ballad. Listen to any of his sides from this period and you'll hear that magic Super 20 sound.

Wardell Gray, Bird, Coltrane, Cannonball, Sonny Rollins, Yusef Lateef, Roland Kirk, Johnny Griffin, Booker Ervin, James Moody, and countless other greats have all played Super 20's part of, most of, or all of their career.

As far as S20 vs. Mark VI?

I can only compare tenors, as I've only owned tenors.

Again, it's all just personal preference, but from my experience there are some points to be made:

1. Super 20's are bigger sounding and much louder with almost any set-up.

2. There's not much competition with a S20's low register and bottom. Wow!
3. The Super 20's have a much more complex, rich, and flexible sound.
A wet sound, as oppossed to a dry sound.
4. S20's are very free blowing. resistance is zero through all registers.
5. The keywork "different" from Selmer's, but I couldn't say it's any better or worse. Definitely comfortable. Maybe not for someone with real small hands, though.

1. Mark VI's have a dark, focused, compact, rock-solid core to their sound. More on the dry side than a S20. Even w/ the squealy rock set-up, VI's still retain this core. This "core" is something that's not found in newer horns - even with all of the "copies".
2. I've never heard a VI that sounded nearly as big or loud as a S20 can be.
3. VI's seem to have a more solid sound in the upper register, though.
S20's tend to be on the bright, thin, or hollow side up in the higher registers (not to say S20's don't sound beautiful in the upper register)
4. The VI keywork and layout, obviously, is one of the main selling points (if not the clincher for some players). Very comfortable and easy to reach. It seems that the VI keywork is as easy to manipulate as a S20 is easy to blow.
5. VI's seem to need adjustments more often than S20's (from experience at least). There are so many points of adjustment on VI's.
S20's are built like tanks.


Again, this is all from my personal experience and point of view. I'm sure there's some people that will disagree with a point or two, but that would be from their experience.

So until someone can perfectly fuse the two horns by adding a tad bid of the VI sound core to the center of the overall S20 sound, add a pinch of the S20 key layout/spacing to the VI keywork model, and keep the same look -underslung silver neck, huge bell, guard design, etc. - as the Super 20's: you'll have to buy both to avoid going crazy!! Mabye the upcoming revamped Super 20 models will be this perfect horn? Selmer does own King now, right? Super 20 series II? Vs. 2?

Has any one checked out the 298,xxx Super 20 @ Sax Alley? This is exactly the same era S20 that Wardell Gray played!!! The rarest serial # range. Double socket silver neck, brass bell, full pearled side keys, modern spatula design...does anyone have any $$ I can borrow or have? " :)

[Mike Ruhl]

Great summary, John - thanks. I agree on every point. As for that Sax Alley horn - if I had the bread, brother, that horn wouldn't be there right now. :wink:

Mike

[Berg-Man]

Speaking only Tenor here I agree on some of the points made, but after owning a 325k S-20 , 360k Silver-Sonic and 450 K Silver-Sonic all in mint condition with new overhauls I have found the following compared to 3 different VI'S and a Series III I've owned. I am currently only playing a 120K VI right now. The biggest problem with Kings is the intonation for me. The last Silver - Sonic I owned played very well but I prefer a good VI. The intonation between intervals is not even close compared to the Selmer's I've owned and I've played the Kings for long periods trying to adjust. The focused sound of the VI I still prefer also. I think the players like Johnny Griffin, Moody, Lateef, Mobley , Rollins and others all found similar problems and moved on to Selmers. Any of these guys could still play Kings if they wanted to. I found that Conn 10m's also had superior intonation compared to the Kings. The VI I currently use is free blowing, great sounding and has as good intonation or better than the series III which was excellent. The Super 20's are great horns but not worth the effort IMO to constantly adjust to play in tune. These are my findings based on horns I've owned for extended periods of time not just tested on a whim.

[Mike Ruhl]

Fair enough. But just for the record, my Super 20 tenor has excellent intonation across the range of the horn.

[John Gilmore]

It seems that Super 20s have a much more flexible sound w/ a rubber band-like elasticity in regard to pitch. One could bend the heck out of notes and smear them almost anywhere or keep them solid and steady. I believe this characteristic (along w/ the wrong set-up) is a major factor in Super 20s being generalized as horns w/ intonation problems. As far as intonation problems in general, so much depends on the player and set-up. I've heard countless times, and experienced first hand, players trying out horns w/ "bad intonation" and completely defusing the horn's "problem" with a set-up tailored for that specific horn. A Mark VI, on the other hand, seems to be not as flexible in tone or pitch as a S20 on any given set-up.
It seems a VI is a VI. When you blow a VI you get that note, that sound, and that's it. Sometimes this is a good thing and, sometimes it's a bad thing.

Overall, I believe the Super 20 has much more character in total sound.

[swingerini]

Berg-Man said :

`I think the players like Johnny Griffin, Moody, Lateef, Mobley , Rollins and others all found similar problems and moved on to Selmers. Any of these guys could still play Kings if they wanted to..`
_ __________ _
Maybe .. but maybe not .

Griff lost his horn when he moved to Europe to stay, and started playing
Selmers in the 60s . He did admit to missing his Super 20 and wishing
that he had another one .

Rollins has said in print that he feels that the Selmers project better;
never said anything about the intonation of the Kings OR Conns, for that
matter .

Mobley for whatever reasons, just seemed to like to change horns; I've
seen a variety of photos of him w/ SBAs VIs and Super 20s from the
50s and 60s .

Yusef went to a VI later,, but who really knows why ?

My general speculation is that maybe these guys weren't as fetishized
about these horns as modern players, since the equipment wasn't
``VINTAGE`` in that period .. and the musicianship/artistry transcended
the appliances that they were using . :wink:

Having said that, I have a 328k tenor that has no apparent tuning issues
that I can see compared to other vintage tenors that I have .

I have a 128K VI that is a bit easier to play, but that horn doesn't have
what my King has .

and I like VIs so it's in no way a cut against them .

Anyway, I like all the old horns and at the end of the day it's the player
that makes the statement not the horn . 8)

[Mike Ruhl]

Rollins has said in print that he feels that the Selmers project better; never said anything about the intonation of the Kings OR Conns, for that matter.Leave to Newk to get to the heart of the matter. As much as I love my old Super 20 tenor, I understand why so many went with the Mark VI during the 1960s. It did project better - that was one of design goals Selmer had for the horn, as it had been since the days of the Radio Improved models. My only point is that that it came at a cost. I've never cared for the increased resistance, especially in the lower register, and the nasally, bassoonish timbre of the Mark VI tenors. The Mark VI altos, however, were truly works of art.

[Sebastian]

About a year ago, I sold my Yanagisawa for a S20 Tenor from Sarge at WWSax. It's a 297xxx, pearls etc. I had to have it. Ever since I tried my friend's tenor some years ago, the sound was in my head. Ergonomics aren't much of a problem. I still do my Londeix classical technique routine on it. Some things are harder than the Yani, but the sound very good.
HOWEVER, the intonation is crazy on this horn. I do Rascher's Top Tone stuff with the ocave excercises (not the overtones) and my octaves are really weird. DILLEMA: I sound the best with a Berg but tune the best with a round/low baffle mpce. I thought I was through with my crappy otto link, but the tuning and response is pretty good on it. I guess I can't accept that I'm back where I started all these years (and dollars later).

Anybody still reading this thread? Anybody with this mpce tuning problem?

[shmuelyosef]

I have found that late Cleveland King's (Zephyrs and S20s) have excellent intonation and are very mouthpiece tolerant. I play a Zeph Special with a Morgan Excalibur large chamber, a Dukoff D and a Lamberson SB...all pretty differente chamber shapes and volumes and have no difficulty with intonation...better than any of my other tenors except my Selmer SA80.

I would contact Sarge and ask him to take a look...

Question: Is your Berg a /0 with the very high baffle...if so, you might try something in the middle road between extreme baffle and extreme Link. Actually, the Morgan is a reasonably priced alternative, particularly the EL...intonation generally like the Link, but with a much more efficient facing that opens up the sound considerably on the Kings I have played it on.

[morgan]

Wardell Gray is probably the most underrated tenor player to ever blow.

Ironically, I'd give that distinction to John Gilmore.

[Mike W]

An interesting observation on projection of the S20s--the other evening I brought my S20 into school and jammed with a CD in the surround sound system we use to teach GE 101 (scientific and engineering critique of movies like The Core ans Dante's Peak, etc.). In the early evening hours I was playing there are very few folks in the building (which is huge) and none on our floor (except a couple of my grad students--one of whom plays sax too) so I cranked up the surround sound system to as loud as I could stand (I am a bit deaf so it was not quiet by any means) and blew along with the CD. My students went to different locations in the building to see how the sound was carrying. It turns out that the unmiked S20 could be heard for quite some distance past where the background CD could be heard (even farther than the bass on the subwoofer could be heard). Based on that, I would say these horns can project very well. I use a 0.113" Lawton BB mouthpiece and was blowing a Rico Select Jazz 2H reed. After finding out how far the sound carried, I decided it might not be wise to blow any louder that evening.

[Sebastian]

shmuelyosef: It's a berg 2 (metal) I also have one with an enlarged chamber and enlarged bullet (HR). Tuning is kind of inconsistent. When I do sightreading with other players my tuning is also strange. Maybe it's me (gasp). I won't have a full-time job soon and I may start seeing that more and more it's me and not the equipment! Ha!

A Morgan you say? I'll have to look into it.

Gilmore IS the most underrated tenor player.