Super 20 Fan Club

[Anonymous]

We're baa-aaaack! Super 20 players, stand up and be counted.

Super 20 tenor, 364xxx, silver neck, brass bell, no pearls on the side :(

I've had this horn since 1974 (sophomore year high school). Dad paid $75 for the horn, then another $100 for a complete overhaul/relacquer (it needed it).

Despite what you may have read, these are very flexible horns, adaptable to all musical styles. The combination of the sterling silver neck along with bore taper/neck curve/bow curve allows the Super 20 tenors to bring out the best in a variety of mouthpiece setups.

[pnuttbutta]

I have a Eastlake Silversonic tenor that I go back and forth to. Don't shun me! :oops: I am a huge fan of these horns, but mainly use a VI. Previously, I owned another Silversonic of similar vintage that was dead mint! I parted with it because I was drawn to the modern ergonomics of Keilwerth. I now regret ever letting go of that baby. Hands down, the King smoked the JK, tone and response-wise. I sold the JK for a mint 103K Mark VI which I currently use. But, I have recently rejoined the King family by acquiring this 2nd Super 20 as a back-up horn. As you know, VIs and Super 20s are SO different in so many ways. It's a mood thing. The VI suits my more mellow side and I pull out the Super 20 when I want to part people's hair or remove paint from the walls!! I have the best of both worlds!

I have a vintage King Super 20 Silver Sonic Alto circa mid 60's (411xxx).
Still playing it after all these years. I just can't seem to duplicate the feel or the sound of this horn compared to others I have played. Presently doing some Doo Wop stuff with a great show group (4 singers and 5 backup band members). This type of music isn't my main bag but it's a fun group to be with. Done some studio recording with them too. 8)

[slash2]

Hi All,
I've been playing a Super 20 tenor 380xxx and alto 315xxx for several years. Sometimes I yearn for my old MKVI but the Kings just about do it all for me, especially the alto. Here's a link to some closeup pics of the tenor that I took a couple of years ago, mostly focusing on the engraving.
-Chris
http://www.sonic.net/~ccalley/tenor/

[Anonymous]

Great pics, Chris. I also enjoyed the pics in your "ride" directory. Where were those taken?

[tsax88]

Add another Super 20 player to the club. I have a Super 20 Silversonic (510xxx) tenor I bought new in 1973. Has the silver neck and bell. Bell is silver on the outside, brass on the inside. Are all the silver bells that way? It's been a great horn, one that will last a lifetime. I had been blowing on a Berg 120/1 for nearly 20 years and recently went to an RPC 120, and it's working very well. And being one of the unique group that we are, I use Rigotti Gold reeds. Anyone out there using them? I've been really happy with these reeds but no mention of them on the Forum. Guess I could throw it up on the Reeds thread.

Good to hear all you Super 20 players blowin' strong!

[slash2]

Mike R.,
Thanks. The ride pics were taken last September, mostly in the High Sierras (Sonora Pass area) and eastern Sierras around Bridgeport Calif.
On Topic: I think that the Super20 engraving is some of the nicest around. Not overdone, just about right in my biased opinion. -Chris

[brucesax]

Count me in a a big fan of the Super-20 Tenor. I have had #4334xx since 1967 & have played the wheels off of it. It's sound is distinct and it will handle the all the air you can put through it. I really get off on holding away from my body lightly with my fingertips, blowing a fat low Bb & feeling the vibartions of the beast.

The Super-20 has my vote as best tenor for Big-Band/rock/R&B.....IMHO.

[Mike W]

I bought a 488xxx Eastlake (all brass, underslung octave key) super 20 last summer. Saxdaddy rebuilt it for me a few weeks ago. Wow!!!!!!!!! This tenor really wails. It is really starting to feel like an extension of my hands (especially since the rebuild). It plays better than I do--very, very fast and precise. A rock and roll tone just floats out effortlessly with a dukoff D model and darkens up quite well when wanted. Now I want a Super20 bari....

[CashSax]

#3852XX full silver/gold inlay mint 1961 Tenor, got it recently to replace one just like it I had yrs ago that got flattened by 100 Tahitian Dancers at Harrah's.
Randy Jones did the pad/resos WOW whatta Horn. Currently using a DG on every Tenor I got. Inc my Selmer VI, SBA and Buescher TH&C.
I'm a believer.

[mr00420]

I know this is a bit off topic: but how the hell did you get your tenor FLATTENED by 100 Tahitian dancers? There's got to be an interesting story there!

[CashSax]

Well it's been told before and it's still painful even 15 yrs later..I'm playing with a showband outfit at Harrah's in Tahoe and a private party booked our main room one nite..their private entertainment was a large Tahitian dance troupe(unbeknownst to my group) we take our regular break and their entertainment busts out running from somewhere in the back of the showroom and proceeds to hit the stage dancing wildly.. Well the Super 20 was on a stand near our drumset..after the "entertainment" ceased we returned to the stage for our next show.. I find my Tenor was propped backwards in the stand bow crushed and bell flattened, neck bent, trashed and mangled and not a dancer in sight..I woulda shot every mother#$%^&*n one of 'em that nite..

[saxtek]

Ouch! Crushed tenor story hurts. I fell in love with the Super-20 Silversonic when I joined Wayne Cochran and the CC Riders in 1971. For quite a while we all played King Super-20 Silver Sonics in the sax section except for Bob Gable's Selmer Mark VI baritone.

We never got an endorsement deal from King, but when I slipped on the ice getting off the bus in Beloit Wisconsin and bashed my silver bell tenor, The factory in Eastlake did a complete restoration with lacquer for $150.00 back in 1972-73. They also overhauled "Junior Michaels" silver bell tenor and engraved his real name, Michael Palmieri, on the back side of the bell in huge script for the same price. Many of the craftsmen from the Cleveland factory were still working at the Eastlake factory at the time. When they figured out that we really loved and respected our Kings, they gave us spare parts (guard screws and pivot screws and lock washers and lock nuts) so we could keep playing during weeks of one night stands. I visited the factory twice during the early 1970s, and the old guys on the production line were really good to me. I'll never forget them and I'll never stop playing my three King tenors.

[mr00420]

Why can't the do this now, huh? I don't understand why modern saxophone manufacturers resfuse to make horns comparable to the vintage ones. I know there are some companies making vintage style horns, but I haven't heard many getting a whole lot of respect. I understand why reeds aren't as good as before (b/c of the cane fires in France) but why is it that current companies don't produce horns w/ the same materials/ qaulity that Kings, Conns, and Selmers did in their heyday? Was it a change in brass? Are the profits just not there for the companies?

[Anonymous]

I love these great old horns, but I'm not convinced that today's pro-level horns aren't (at least) their equal in terms of design and craftsmanship. It's likely I'll never own another tenor besides my Super 20, but I regularly test out new horns just for fun. If I ever did have to replace my tenor, there are a few models of new horns that I'm sure I could live with.

In my mind, the main thing we're missing out on with current production horns is variety in bore taper designs. With the notable exception of Keilwerth (and possibly Borgani, I'm not sure), pretty much every other new pro-level tenor is a descendent of the Mark VI. And I never enjoyed playing the Mark VI tenors. Too much resistance.

[Hornlip]

I think Mike R. may be about right, insofar as the Mark VI influence goes. The Mark VI was the undisputed king of the heap coming out of the 60's after most the other American makers had collapsed (along with the saxophone market in general, I think -- guitar was the overall king). I could easily see the horn makers deciding that emulating the Mark VI was a safe bet, since it obviously worked & was good for all-around musical styles. Once the asian clone-masters cranked up copying the Mark VI, the trend became locked in. Thus horns with a more luscious-toned construction Aristocrats just didn't get produced.

Hopefully, that's changing!!

[swapsax]

I used to see you guys with Wayne
when you came through the Dearborn
TownHouse where I was in the house band. (Occasionally still see Bob
Gable down in Toledo). You were
playing pieces that Dukoff made you
custom and that sent me off on a
chase to get him to do it again--unfortunately he had entered into
his pot metal mass produced period
from which he has not left. Do I
remember this right?

[saxtek]

Dearborn Town House. Terry & the Topics. Yeah, I remember. Most of us were playing on stock Dukoffs, but they were brass then. Whatever happened to Buzzy Troy?

[swapsax]

That was the band! Buzzy got into
the auto industry. Email at

swapsax@webnow.com

[addissax]

I've been playin' my late 60's Silver Sonic tenor since 1975 when I found
it in a Baton Rouge pawn shop for $500.
Current setup:
--Brilhart Level Aire #9
--Rover Eddie Daniels II lig
--Bari* hard reed
Horn / setup is very responsive and blows the MVI's off the stage.
Also play a '51 Zephyr Bari and a '53 Zephyr Alto.

Jon Smith (White Trash Horns / Boogie Kings) still plays a '20.
I love the tone.....

[hbl]

Before I post on my King, I've just gotta ask - Hey, saxtek, did you play with Jaco?

addissax....What a steal you made on that horn of yours...I was at a repair shop last year and a guy came in to get repairs on a Super 20 Silver Sonic alto he picked up like you, from a pawn shop for $500. I'll bet you were in seventh heaven when you got your horn.

I bought my horn new, an alto Super 20 SilverSonic, in the mid 60's (411xxx) for $563 and now I can get $2500 to $3000 for it. I would'nt sell it for any amount of money. Still playing it and it sounds just like it did when I bought it way back when.

[T.S.]

This is a re-post-I have a 576xxx (1976) all brass/underslung neck that I bought new in 1977. I know the year it had to be manufactured because it sat in the shop I bought it ($725.00 new!) from for nearly a year before I bought it. I now have a Gloger Handkraft silver underslung neck on it and it is an absolutely great sounding tenor! I love Supers. For R&B to Pop to Rock to Jazz, I think they are one of the most versatile horns ever built. and beautifully free-blowing as well.

[Mike W]

I paid $1800 for my 488xxx super 20 last summer, used in a music store --put another $700 in it for a rebuild by Saxdaddy (who did a truely great job by the way). I probably put too many $ into this horn, but I don't care a bit because it plays great. I fall in love with it more every day.

[saxtek]

hbl,

Yes, I played with Jaco in the CC Riders (he was my roommate) and at the end on the Japanese albums and the birthday album.

[hbl]

:shock: Warning - I'm going off-topic here;

saxtek - Incredible! Just gotta say I was a huge fan of Jaco's (lucky to see him play live in 1981 - he was amazing - truly one of my musical heroes). I remember listening to his solo album and his early Weather Report stuff an literally not being able to figure out what instrument I was hearing - I literally couldn't believe the SOUND of his music. Too much, man! There are a million questions I'd like to ask - don't worry I won't!

[hbl]

Oh yeah, I play a 372XXX Super 20 Silversonic with silver neck and bell, with gold inlaid engraving and gold wash interior bell. Pretty horn. My wife likes how I sound when I play it. I think I better listen to her!

[shimshon]

Is the club open to Zephyr Special owners? I've got a 229xxx alto. 8)

[mr00420]

Just start a Zephyer Fan Club (though I have 323XXX II, not a special.) All three are basically the same horn (depending on the serial number,) but S20s and some specials have alot of decoration and often sliver.

[PB]

Does anyone here has experience playing classic music with a King Super 20?? I sold my 295xxx tenor because it wasn`t flexible enough. This tenor was the LOUDEST I ever owned - great sound and feel, pearls all over. This horn was gold plated ( !!! ) and I sold it to a friend to keep it in my eyes. Maybe the best horn I ever owned, but my Mark6 plays at ppp and fff more clear and I can use it on every job with very good results. Classical music and King ????

[Mike Ruhl]

Does anyone here has experience playing classic music with a King Super 20?? I sold my 295xxx tenor because it wasn`t flexible enough...Classical music and King ????
That's pretty much all I play on my Super 20 tenor (364xxx, 1959, silver neck, brass bell, no pearls) . Well, not necessarily "classical", but mostly sacred and other "legit" stuff. This is the only tenor I've ever owned (bought it while in high school in 1974), so I've really had no choice but to use it for everything.

I have never bought into the stuff about the Super 20 being strictly an R&B or jazz horn. They're all saxophones, and while some horns definitely have different response tendencies thanks to varying bore/taper designs, you can't convince me that anyone could tell the difference between James Houlik playing a Super 20 or a Selmer Series II tenor.

It's all in how you play, not what horn you're playing.

It's true that Super 20s are very free-blowing horns, and some consider this to be a handicap to playing in a classical style. But I know from my personal experience that you can create the desired resistance by changing mouthpiece/reed setups.

PB - Are you suggesting that your Super 20 simply would not respond at all unless you were blowing triple-forte? What type of mouthpiece, with what facing, and what strength reeds did you use? And how was the horn set up with pads and resonators?

[PB]

The King was great, even for classical playing. But it wasn`t really nice when you played ppp. My english stops here to explain what I really think. The Mark6 I have now is one of the strongest horns I ever owned and it still has this singing sound when you play a Bozza or Samuel Barber at ppp.
This horn does the Rock jobs great, too. I play a Brilhart Tonalin 5* with rico royal 3 reeds or Hemke 3 1/2 - that`s all. Not a screaming equipment at all until you push it.

[Mike Ruhl]

Interesting. My Super 20 has a lovely singing quality to its sound when played softly, and I use similar setups (7* Florida Link, Hite Artist model, #4 V16s).

[PB]

Maybe I should buy YOUR horn!?!?

[Mike Ruhl]

Maybe I should buy YOUR horn!?!?
:lol: Not for sale, sorry.

[PB]

Just kidding!

[Zack DeVore]

Forgive me if I'm asking a stupid question or asking in the wrong place, but I read with interest the old archieved thread on King Super 20s that were produced after the Super 20 "officially" went out of production in 1975. Let me explain the background of my question.

About 1991 I was a sophomore in high school and looking to upgrade from my very old worn out Buescher Aristocrat alto. So I went to a couple of music stores down in Atlanta. The first one had a Mark VI - I liked the way it played, but it was in pretty rough shape and the price seemed kind of steep ($2300, not including a mouthpiece). The second one had something labeled a King 2414, which the music store said was really an unlabeled really late King Super 20. According to the UMI website the serial number 865,xxx, puts the date of manufacturer around 1981 - the booklet says that it was from the King Musical Instrument Company, Eastlake, Ohio. The saxophone was in remarkable condition - in fact it basically was brand new - apparently it had floated around various music stores unsold for a decade - except that the mouthpiece had vanished somewhere along the line. Since I really liked the way the it played (it has wonderful response) and it sounded quite good even using a really cheap plastic mouthpiece (which was all the store had available) so my father and I decided that given the condition it was a better purchase than the Mark VI since it was almost $1000 less.

I've been now playing this saxophone for about 12 years now, and I still love the way it plays. I've never regretted not getting the Mark VI when I had a chance. My older sister also plays saxophone (her main horn is a 1952 Selmer (Paris) Super Balanced Action) and she was sure that we had gotten ripped off by buying the King and that we should have bought the Mark VI - until she played it and then she had to admit that the King is a very good saxophone.

But this leads me to my question. Does anyone know what a King 2414 is? Are they really King Super 20's or was the music store lying to us? not that it made a lot of difference, I didn't know how legendary the Super 20 was at the time, and I mainly bought the horn based on its condition and the way it played. I searched the internet and found only one website that mentioned the King 2414 - a German site which is right here - http://www.saxophon-service.de/homep/gloger/kglo01.htm which only deepens my curiousity about what exactly it is that I own.

Also if the King Super 21 was built around 1995 how come it has a lower serial number than my instrument which had to have built at least before 1991?

But I figure that even if my father got ripped off in buying my King, he more than made up for it when he bought my sister's SBA a couple of years for about $1000. And if nothing else, I can always aspire to own a real Super 20 - maybe once I get my law school loans paid off :)

[nhsaxes]

Well, I'm back after a considerable absence, just too busy until this week. Nice to see the new style of the forum since I've been gone. I used to be a Mike W. in the olden days, but I see the "new" Mike W. has taken the moniker, so I will henceforth live under an assumed name on this forum now :wink:

I have four 20s in all: an early '60s HN White silver neck (an absolutely beautiful pice of work), an early 70s Eastlake that I bought brand new off the shelf in 1973, a late-70s (?) tenor (one of the ones made out of spare body parts, w/over-the-top octave key), and a mid-70s Eastlake baritone that actually shows up on saxpics' pages somewhere. I also have a Marigaux that solves all of my[/i] ppp problems for me, but that's a story for the SML thread.

Nice to see that this is still going!

[larry]

Sorry for the late post, but I just joined SOTW today. Posted something similar on the Silversonic MPC thread but...

388xxx Silversonic Tenor - bought for me when I was in high-school in 1973 by my Dad. Silver neck & bell (no pearls :() but the squid-brain who owned it before me drilled a hole in the neck near the mouthpiece for a pick-up (It was the 70s I guess).

Um...does the wacky octave key configuration (with that rocker bar) drive anyone else nuts? Mine was always coming loose (I used to gig with a screwdriver in my pocket to tighten it up between songs) until Dan at Rayburn's recommended Lok-Tite.

Anyways there's a pic at http://sambossa.home.comcast.net/pics/dave_larry.jpg

I feel like I'm home with friends!
Larry G.

[Mike Ruhl]

Um...Larry...that's not how a sax is supposed to be played... :wink:

Which screw are you referring in the octave key mechanism? The one on the under side of the neck?

I have a similar problem with mine, but it's the screw at the top of the keywork on the body that works loose. I've kept a set of jeweler's screwdrivers in my case for years.

[TheChristianSax]

All,

I just had the opportunity to play a King Super 20 with a silver neck, and I have to honestly say I was VERY impressed. I played it right along side a 167xxx Mark VI and I am was leaning more toward the King. It had a wonderful sound and response. Being one that had never played a King before, I was skeptical, but I am now a changed man.

Sincerely,
Matt
:P

[ehopper1]

I have an Eastlake Alto and an Eastlake Tenor with no silver neck or bell or mother of pearls or something else.
But the sound is gorgeous and the intonation very good. :D :D :D

[Tenorfoot]

Been a S20 [silver neck #362] owner for three months now & love it!
Just hope somedayto be able to play up to the horns potential.
Thanks again Steve!
Jerry :D

[Saxturtle]

Mine's a 379xxx Cleveland, sterling double-socket neck, underslung octave, no side or palm pearls, engraved on bell keys. I've had it for about 4 months now. It's my first 'real' horn after deciding not to invest further in my high school (late 70's) Noblet. I play mostly in church, praise and worship stuff, with two trumpets, two trombones and an alto sax plus a full rhythm/perc section. The KS20 has no trouble cutting through. I had folks tell me they heard me for the first time the day I uncorked the little beast! YAHOO! Even the kids like it. The day after it arrived they met me at the door when I got home from work asking, 'was I going to practice again tonight?'. :shock: The King'll be staying for awhile...

BTW, I use a new STM Link 7* with 2 1/2 V16s. This is OK for most things but occasionally I want to darken a bit. Any other MPC suggestions welcome. Thanks!

[bobsax]

I have an alto sterling neck and bell serial#295195,Does anybody know its value?
bob

[Mike Ruhl]

Check this link:

http://www.saxgourmet.com/VINTAGE_SAXOPHONE_VALUE_GUIDE.htm

[shmuelyosef]

I have an alto sterling neck and bell serial#295195,Does anybody know its value?
bob

Probably one of the more valuable kings out there except for the very special gold inlay models. As always depends on condition, but Tim at Sax Alley and Saxquest have both sold horns like this recently for $3500-4000. The often get >$3000 on eBay, even in less than perfect condition. The market is a better indicator than Steve's page, although I'm sure that we all reference it regularly (thanx, Steve!)

[Mike Ruhl]

I agree. The bottom line is, it's worth what you can get for it. The trick is in maxmizing that. My personal opinion, based on several years of watching ebay auctions for these things, is that you should not accept anything less than $3000 for it. Ebay is the best way to sell it, just make sure you take lots of good digital pictures.

[frobig]

My Super 20 is a 300xxx tenor with all the pearls, brass bell, no engraving on C/C# (some will tell you that this number range should have this engraving, but I've never seen it). I've had it 12 or 13 years, it was only the second S20 I'd ever seen. I saw the first one in Hermie's in Schenectady, NY, when I was shopping for a tenor to replace my 1st horn, a Carl Fischer--wish I had pix of it so I knew who made it...anyway, this S20 was also with pearls, and it sat in the case next to a Conn 30M. Many of you know how nice the Connqueror is, but it looked like a middle school Bundy next to the King. The neck, the pearls, the engraving, even the conical pad cups, everything said it had to be the best! I went back again and again, staring and drooling, till one day I brought my trade-in and a wad of cash--only to find the Conn sitting next to an empty stand! I'd been beat. Well, I needed a "real" horn, so I went home with the 30M, and it sounded great, but the next time a S20 crossed my path (Cole's in Watervliet) I almost broke my arm pulling out my wallet. Who knew it could sound as good as it looked! I've used S80 C**, rubber Link 5, and metal Link 6* in college groups with excellent results, and I'd put my tenor's intonation up against anything but a xylophone. The old-style keywork (pinky table looks like Balanced Action but hinges backwards) has never bothered me and the action is ridiculously fast compared to anything modern that I've tried. And with all that, I'd still pay the same $1200 even if it played like a dog, just to look at it.
Postscript: I just had a Zephyr alto, 343xxx, donated to me, and if a neck ever turns up for it, I'm going to overhaul it (I'm a rookie professional tech) and see what comes out. I've seen enough to know, they don't make 'em like that anymore.

[Mike Ruhl]

Welcome aboard!

[Holiday]

I just relenquished my Lady Face Conn 10m for a King Super 20 Brass 488,XXX. She sounds sweet. I'm looking forward to playing more and more each day. Now if I can just get my fingers to adjust to the new keywork after stretching them out on the Conn. 8)

[Mike W]

Hi Holiday. My S20 tenor is a brass 488xxx and a fine playing horn. Funny thing is that when I play my 1943 Buescher Aristrocrat with the same mouthpiece, everyone says I sound exactly the same on both horns. The S20 rocks--have fun!!

[Holiday]

Oh! You have the second horn I'd like to own. Well actually, a Buescher Top Hat and Cane would be nice too. I think I might have to change reed and or mouthpiece though. I like to keep my sound dark but sweet, very little buzz.

[ReedSplitterRev]

Add me to the list, as a fan and member of the club. I bought a 454xxx Eastlake, all brass, underslung from saxman pete (selmerfudd) to playoff against my '51 Conn 10M. It didn't take much to figure out it was exactly what I was looking for.

I dug the tone of the Conn, althought felt it was too spread out and not focused enough for me. The keywork was good on the Conn, with a major exception being the LH pinky cluster, which on the Super 20 is like butter in comparisin. Try the chorus section on Lush Life for a major LH workout. The 20 was sooo much smoother.

Tone, ergonomics, projection..the King has it all for me. I love playing it!

BTW, there's a great 10M on ebay right now....

Trevor

[TenorReinier]

Since a few days I can call me a proud Super 20 owner. A 390K tenor, silver single socket neck, brass bell, lost some of its lacquer etc. In other words; not a real beauty.

BUT! A workhorse. An incredible sounding horn. This horn is never going to leave me. Slept really lousy last nights.... :D

Super 20 underrated? Maybe, but not by me!

Enjoy your 20's everybody, at least I will enjoy mine 8) .

And again, thanks for all the information gathered here. An invaluable source for the real saxophone addict.

[JimD]

Glad you took the plunge TenorReinier, I was despairing for a while when you said you were passing up that horn. Did you buy the first one you asked about or have you found a secret cache of them? If you want ugly you should see mine (354xxx); no lacquer, a funny matt yellow colour and all sorts of stains etc., but we don't care.

Slept really lousy last nights...

You not really meant to take it to bed with you, you wake up with funny indentations all over you and the horn gets fluffy.

[TenorReinier]

JimD,

I'm glad too. Unfortunately the horn I asked about first was sold when I was in France for a week. When I got back and it wasn't in the shop anymore, I was quite disappointed, since I kind of decided in France to buy it. But because of this I was even more eager to search for one. So I did, and I found a great one, like I said a 390K with a great sound with not so great looks.

You not really meant to take it to bed with you, you wake up with funny indentations all over you and the horn gets fluffy

I don't think my girl would appreciate this very much, but if it weren't for her... :wink:

a bit of topic: when I was in France I decided to see if there were some nice horns in the local shops. Don't. But it's funny to see their faces when you ask for a non-Selmer sax :)

[normandp]

Bought my alto Super 20 silver neck #364,xxx in 1973. For what i know it was made in 1958. I stopped playing for a long time then I played on and off. Just started over last october.

[hardbop]

During the period of 1955-1956, Hank played on a Super 20. Contrary to the belief that the 20 is a bright horn, Hank's tone was so dark and sonorous with a hip dry quality about it. 8) Later, he used SBA and Mark VI and his tone was slightly edgy, but he was still Hank. I had a chance to buy a silver neck tenor for $700.00 20 years ago, I kind of regret that I passed it up.

[barfdog17]

I think i will be in the Club withing a few days, i have the chance between getting a new tenor, or one of 2 near perfect condition Super 20's for $2000 from my local music store, that doesn't really know a whole lot about vintage horns.

[SilverNeck20]

Figured it was about time to join this forum........

I've used a Super 20 Tenor for almost 20 years, when I swithed over from being strictly an Alto player. It was made around '59 and has a double socket sterling neck. A real killer horn. 8-)

[domesquare]

After playing a Yamaha YAS 23 for many years, I made the big leap to the super 20 364xxx. Recently I've had to work on easing back on my sound - this horn is so much louder and brighter than what I'm used to. Great responsiveness.

[Saxturtle]

Welcome, domesquare. One thing S20's have without a doubt: projection!

[CashSax]

Went and did it again, my S20 Tenor is intoxicting to say the least and I've recently pulled the trigger on a #470XXX Eastlake SilverSonic Alto that really sings.Still working on a mpc but so far the old Dukoff sounds real good on it..The pads are fairly fresh with oversize browndome resos.
I got the thing practically sight unseen, but since it came from Roberto's in NYC I figured it would be good.They hit it at 92% original lacquer and I woulda gave it an 85 but so what.. the way it sounds I don't care. It's still drop dead gorgeous with the Gold inlay and not a dent or real scratches anywhere although the guy musta had those acid hands 'cause most of the nickle on the side, palm and pinkies is toast. Lotsa speckles too..Musta been a hand on the bell guy too, the clear lacquer is missing on some of the bell, but the sterling is polished so nice it's still beautiful..Some of the gold Bell wash is gone too but again the sterling underneath is like a mirror you have to look closely to notice a difference in the color.

I suppose I paid way too much but, this thing has a sound and feel that makes it worth every penny.The real Deal. :king:

[Sebastian]

Man, it sure is nice to see that this thread has some action again. I've had kind of a love hate relationship with my Super 20 (1949). Whenever I think that I need to find an "easier" horn to play on, all I have to do is try just about any other tenor and/or practice for a couple more hours. The practice usually clears up just about any problem but it's scary to try any other tenor out there. Do Selmer players realize how wrong they are?

BTW my setup for the last year or so has been a Soloist opened to .095 and a SS berg at the same opening (JGerber for both).

[CashSax]

Wait now Sebastian.. I'm a life-long Selmer Player and I don't believe there's a "better" all around horn made..Action, depth of tone etc. My KING's are just different..I own two Selmer tenors a '67 VI & '49 SBA, plus a VII Alto. and new series Sop & Bari. I have owned and played many others Selmers as well.
But, yes my KING's have their own voice and I love them.. 8-)

[Super 20 Player]

During the period of 1955-1956, Hank played on a Super 20. Contrary to the belief that the 20 is a bright horn, Hank's tone was so dark and sonorous with a hip dry quality about it. 8) Later, he used SBA and Mark VI and his tone was slightly edgy, but he was still Hank. I had a chance to buy a silver neck tenor for $700.00 20 years ago, I kind of regret that I passed it up.
Kings always had their own unique, dark sound, going all the way back to the very early horns. They had their own ideas about bore tapers and tonehole placement. The print ads for Super 20s used to refer to them as having a dark sound. But it was the combination of the silver neck, the specific curves of the neck and bow, tonehole placement, and the effect of silver-soldering the toneholes on the metallurgy of the body that produced the classic "Super 20 sound".

btw, Dad bought me my 364xxx tenor in 1974 for $75.

[BATMAN]

Our lead alto just got a Silversonic Alto about 8 months ago.

I got a chance to play it.

Man, I thought the TENOR action was slick....

The finger spread being much smaller, the alto flies!

One thing I always loved about these horns is the extremely fast action....you can play some tempos with these things! Makes my 30M feel like a Bundy in the action department, lol.

[SilverNeck20]

Do Selmer players realize how wrong they are?

I'm a big King fan, but I have to disagree with you on this. There's no right or wrong here. It's personal prefrence.
My alto is a Selmer SBA, that I wouldn't part with for anything.
I think both King and Selmer have made some of the best horns ever produced. It depends on what you like, and what your using them for.

[Super 20 Player]

I agree completely.

[Jason DuMars]

I just bought a very late (630k) Eastlake Silversonic alto with gold-inlaid engraving. I compared it to my near-mint 6M and there was no comparison -- this S20SS is the horn I have been dreaming of. Happy Birthday to me! :D

Now, I'm going to engrave the key cups like the originals had, and then do the rest of the body in the same style! Woo hoo! I love being an engraver (http://www.dumarsengraving.com)!

[Super 20 Player]

I just bought a very late (630k) Eastlake Silversonic alto with gold-inlaid engraving. I compared it to my near-mint 6M and there was no comparison -- this S20SS is the horn I have been dreaming of. Happy Birthday to me! :D

Now, I'm going to engrave the key cups like the originals had, and then do the rest of the body in the same style! Woo hoo! I love being an engraver (http://www.dumarsengraving.com)!
I wondered if you'd had an opportunity to emulate the old King engraving. I'd like to have original-looking key-cup engraving added to the low C# and C keys on my 364xxx Super 20 tenor. Maybe the Eb key, just to be different. Please let me know how it turns out.

Welcome aboard! Now go de-lacquer that silver neck! :wink:

[Jason DuMars]

I went a little nuts on my Super 20... I did the bell keys in the King style, and it was a little difficult to do, but I think it turned out well. I engraved a nude watching a butterfly into the side of the bell, engraved the bow, body and even pants guard! You can see more photos at my site (http://www.dumarsengraving.com), if you scroll down to the project log. Here are a few sample photos:

http://www.dumarsengraving.com/js20/bellkeys3.jpg

http://www.dumarsengraving.com/js20/nude.jpg

http://www.dumarsengraving.com/js20/aside1.jpg

Let me know what you think! It's definitely a swanky-looking Super 20 now!

[Super 20 Player]

I think I'd just like to have the low C and C# done. Do I have to send you the whole horn, or can I send you just the keys themselves?

[SilverNeck20]

Totally cool, and I'm not talking about the key-cups or the butterfly!!!!!!!! :wink:

Seriously though, you did a great job on that horn.

[Sebastian]

Hey wow, I didn't think that what I said would be reacted to this way. Perhaps my Canadian sense of sarcasm was taken a little too seriously! I've played lots of Selmer tenors but they just don't stack up sound wise for my taste. This is why I posted in the FAN CLUB area. I guess you could say that I'm a fan. I play a Mark VI alto and I enjoy it. But it doesn't have the balls that my old 6M had (with 30 year old rotten pads to boot!), or even a Zephyr that was in a pawn shop. I use it because it is warmer than the Series III that I used to have but good retained that technical facility that I require. Tenor. The only other tenors that I've liked were a 1950 SBA that belonged to a military band, a new Series III and the new B&S medusa (I think my favourite one).

Good to know so many people out there are in love with their Kings. Now if I could just afford a S20 Alto I would be in heaven.

[Super 20 Player]

No big deal. I was president of the He-Man Selmer-Haters Club for many years. Couldn't stand the way the Mark 6 tenors played, sounded, looked, felt, or anything else about them. Funny thing now is that the only new horn I've played in years that I've actually liked is the Selmer Series III. Go figure. Either they wised up, or I did. :wink:

[Super 20 Player]

Oh yeah, and there's this guy that works in the local music store that drives me nuts. I only go in to this store about every 3 or 4 months, and he's always there, and he never remembers having seen me before. He's a trombone player who gigs locally, or so he claims, so he always asks me what I play. When I tell him sax, he always asks what make of horn? When I tell him King Super 20, he gets a sad look on his face, and says, "not a Selmer Mark 6? All the sax players I play with play Selmer Mark 6s". I just sigh and say, "That's too bad...".

[Sebastian]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I gave up a faultless Yani for my S20. The reason was the sound. Mechanically and technically it was perfect and a nice sound of its own. The series III is a really nice sounding horn. Lively and strong like the king with similar back pressure. There's a guy here in toronto (my age) who has an immaculate '60's Mark VI silver plated tenor. He thought that Selmer was the only way to go and that Kings weren't good. He tried my tenor and almost wouldn't give it back to me! He liked the sound esp in the palm keys. King tenors are kind of like playing altos because they have that same amount of resisance (the good kind).

[Super 20 Player]

Resistance, exactly. It's all about the resistance. Too bad there's no emoticon to express the happy feeling of speaking to others who are completely in-the-know.

I guess this will have to do :king:

[super20dan]

i know you are talking tenors here but you really have to play a super20 bari to believe it!every one says the conn 12m is king -only cause they havent played a super 20!

[Michael Ward]

I'm not a Super 20 or King player, I've been a 6 player man and boy all my life but this sub forum devoted to King is my favourite part of SOTW. The warmth and cameraderie that you guys share with your love of these great horns is beautiful, you can almost hear a beer being poured as you settle down to chew the fat, content 'cause you have an All American piece of art , probably the most beautiful horn ever designed with a pedigree and sound to match. I salute you .

[Super 20 Player]

Somebody buy that man a beer! :king:

[SilverNeck20]

Somebody sell him a Super 20!!!!!!!!!!! :D

Funny thing about people who always ask if you play a MKIV, it seems it's the only horn they know about. I've been asked the same, even after they've seen the horn. Only horn players seem to know the difference. I quess the fact that it says 'Super 20' accross the bell in big letters is not much of a giveaway. I've told people my alto is a Selmer SBA........the usuall reply........"what's that"?

I've played keyboards in bands over the years, and I had the same experience with that. The big thing a few years back was the M1. "Hey you play key's, do you have an M1?" Bascially the same thing, the only board they know the name of.

Usually if it's a guitar player I'll ask him if he plays a Les Paul. "I thought all guitar players play one". If I know he doe's I'll ask him if it's a Strat instead. Half the time, they have both and 10 different others, then I'm sorry I started the conversation.

But that's the way it goes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tensopbass]

Hey Super20player, got a spare mill or two?http://www.guernseys.com/Auctions/Jazz/Featured.html (Parker)
nicko.

[Super 20 Player]

http://www.guernseys.com/Auctions/Jazz/Featured.html

You know what's funny about that site? They have the mouthpieces on upside-down on all the horns. For big-time auctioneers, they don't pay much attention to detail. :?

[tensopbass]

Yeah, but only on the Smellers! Bird's horn looks fine, reaaaaaaaal fine! nicko

[lnauman]

I am now a proud owner of a King Super 20 tenor s/n 488xxx. It is an all brass East Lake Model. The previous owner, a big band leader who plays mostly alto, was very reluctant to sell it, but I nice guy'd my way into making a deal with him.

After playing the horn I can see why the King Super 20's are so highly regarded. It is the easiest to blow into tenor that I have ever played. I'm presently using a Yanagisawa #7 metal mouthpiece with a Plasticover #3. I get a nice rich sound that isn't too edgy from this setup. I know I can probably get more volume with a different setup, but for now it's plenty loud.

The horn has a large area of laquer wear on the engraving in the front below the bell, and it looks like this wear is from being taken in and out of case. It seems as though the case could have been designed differently to prevent that wear. The sax looks cool to me the way it is. It is defintely a players horn, and was just what I was looking for.

I notice after reading the postings on this section of the forum that the Super 20 owners, like their horns, are spirited. :D

[CashSax]

I recently got a 360XXX Cleveland Alto to A/B with my 470XXX Eastlake alto. Both are Silversonics w/ gold inlay in cherry shape. Even with different pad/reso set ups the horns sound and feel virtually identical. I've got the Eastlake up for sale as it's got the newer pads and big brown domes. Also just got a 1940 Zeph special alto that has just been completely re-furbished. I'm totally blown away by the quality of the modern re-builds. The horn looks absolutely BRAND NEW, the extensive Deco engraving is so sharp and crisp that it looks like original. I got this alto for resale and it's untouched, so I'm not playing it. With full pearls and a sterling silver neck (also mint) it's one of the most gorgeous altos I've ever seen.

[PorkpieHat]

I have an all brass 488,XXX Super 20 Tenor with the underslung. Up here in Canada reputable vintage tenors are harder to find than in the U.S.A. Every once in awhile a MK VI pops up, usually a later model. The idea of owning a Super 20 Tenor was for me a pipe dream. For the longest time I'd never seen a Super 20 Tenor up close, not in a store, not even played, then one day I wonder into a local music store and just what should be on the wall? King Super 20 in the flesh (or rather brass)!

Well y'know I was kinda partial to my then horn a "Ladyface" Conn 10M. It had a big warm tone. But I traded it in and financed the Super 20. It'll be paid off in 3 or 4 more payments as of this month. I love this horn. The action is smooth, nice warm even tone throughout the registers. I love it.

[super20dan]

cash-your are getting close to what could be considered "hoarding"

[Jason DuMars]

My massively engraved SilverSonic is up for grabs...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3781329500&ssPage Name=STRK:MESE:IT

[CashSax]

AW c'mon dan, I only got 4 KINGS right now..besides the Eastlake altos' on Ebay right now, I can't feed both those silver ladies so one has to go..The Zeph I just wanna drool at for awhile..BTW I'm spoiled, Tenor Madness did my 385xxx tenor just before I got it, can't wait to give my 390xxxAlto the same treatment.

[CashSax]

Jason, that's a beauty..I enjoy your website a lot too..such beautiful work !!..A Q?? how are Selmer Yana and some of the other really fine engravers able to be so perfectly perfect time after time??....are they all still little old folks engraving away :roll:

[Jason DuMars]

Thanks Cash! It's a mix of having a stencil to work from every time, and repetition. I can engrave an exact duplicate of the Mark VI pattern in about half an hour. That kind of work doesn't really take that much discipline or skill. Anyone with a resonably steady hand can engrave over a stencilled pattern. The real art is making it up as you go and incorporating straight cuts.

[Jo King]

Hi there, this is my first post - I stumbled upon this forum after reviving my sax playing and was looking for sax exercises online.....anywayyy!!..... I own a King Super 20 tenor (282xxx) which is the first in the series and a Super 20 alto (319xxx) - 2nd series. I totally love the Super 20 sound, having once owned a Selmer Mark VI, I prefer the warmer, more open and definitely raunchy sound of the Super 20! I tend to swap round mouthpiece/reed setups but at the moment am happy with my old Dukoff D7 and D9 mouthpieces with a normal cane reed (prefer LaVoz).

Now to go browse through all the topics to find tips....! :)

[Super 20 Player]

Welcome aboard, Jo! You've got a couple of nice horns there.

[Jo King]

Welcome aboard, Jo! You've got a couple of nice horns there.

Thanks Super 20 Player! :) They are great saxes but they cost me a small fortune and I'm still paying back the bank. Worth every penny though. :wink:

[ehopper1]

I have a 1972 Eastlake Alto, all brass, #484xxx. I play it with Hemke #2,5 reeds, Meyer Rubber M5M and Rovner Dark Ligature.
It's a fantastic horn!
- Mike

[Super 20 Player]

Welcome to the Club, ehopper1! Just out of curiousity, how long have you had your alto?

[ehopper1]

Hi Super 20 player,
I bought it in 1995 at a music store in Karlsruhe (Germany)
I had some problems with my repadded Yanagisawa Alto and went back to the repairman in that store.
I had to wait a while.
The repairman told me to try the King Super 20 he had in stock for a few days.
And that was it!
I sold my Yani an bought this wonderful Super 20!
-Mike

[Super 20 Player]

That's a great story. Always good to have another Super 20 fan (and another "Mike") aboard.

Mike

[bloontz]

Count me in as a fan.

Cleveland Silver-Sonic 323XXX with pearls all over.
Purchased in 1979 in Erie PA for $800.
It has served me well through the years.

John

[Super 20 Player]

Welcome to The Club, John. You got a deal on that Silver Sonic!

Dad bought me my 364xxx tenor in 1974 (my sophomore year in high school) for $75. It was in sad shape, so we had it completely overhauled and relacquered by the best shop in Kansas City. They did a masterful job.

One of my goals in this thread is to dispel the myth that Super 20s are strictly R&B or jazz horns, and/or are 'bright' horns by nature. They're actually dark, resonant horns by design, thanks to the broad bow design. HN White advertised them as such, too. I'm obviously biased, but I think the Super 20 is the most versatile sax ever made.

These days I play mostly at church - an independent Baptist church, where we're very careful about the music we play at our services. No CCM here! And even though I'm playing what most would consider the quintessential R&R tenor sax, I get many compliments on my sound. Of course, I'm playing a modest mpc setup: Hite 128 hard rubber mpc (.095" tip), but with Vandoren V16 #4s (their R&R reed). It just goes to show, it's all in how you play, not what you play.

[larry]

Check out my avatar - only a Super20 player can appreciate it. Love the sunbursts!

[Super 20 Player]

How about this one? A silver-plated sunburst low C!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y82/super20player/Full%20silver-plate/low_c.jpg

No, it's not mine. I found some pictures of fully silver-plated Super 20 tenor, and cropped that shot out. More pictures are out in my Photobucket.com album (http://photobucket.com/albums/y82/super20player/)

[bloontz]

One of my goals in this thread is to dispel the myth that Super 20s are strictly R&B or jazz horns, and/or are 'bright' horns by nature. They're actually dark, resonant horns by design, thanks to the broad bow design. HN White advertised them as such, too. I'm obviously biased, but I think the Super 20 is the most versatile sax ever made.

I never thought of my Super 20 (tenor btw) as being bright in the least, well unless I was using a bright mouthpiece that is. My palying has always tended to be quite dark. I totally agree that they are versatile and I really like the keywork on them in general. They are incredibly solid in construction also and don't seem to need adjusted very often.

[Saxturtle]

Bloontz: I agree with you regarding the solid construct.

Has anyone here found a close cosmetic match replacement source for the little nuts on the S20? Mine've gotten loose (age? :D ) and I've lost at least one...

[shmuelyosef]

What I have done in the past is go to a custom hardware store and buy high quality brass nuts...I mount them on a motor spindle and sand one face until they just match. I have done this several times to replace damaged ones for customers. On my own S20, I replaced all the nuts with some real sweet tiny acorn nuts that I found...this horn is far from original (custom keywork, bezel-free pearls, etc) so I wasn't worried about that.

[Saxturtle]

Shmuelyosef,

Thanks! What's the thread size/pitch for these? I'm guessing 4-40...S'pose I could take one with me to the hdwe store...And I like the acorn nut idea. Did you find them in nylatch?

[Super 20 Player]

What I have done in the past is go to a custom hardware store and buy high quality brass nuts...I mount them on a motor spindle and sand one face until they just match. I have done this several times to replace damaged ones for customers. On my own S20, I replaced all the nuts with some real sweet tiny acorn nuts that I found...this horn is far from original (custom keywork, bezel-free pearls, etc) so I wasn't worried about that.Do you have pictures of that horn? I'd love to see the customizations.

[xax]

My 2 cents regarding S20 vs Silversonic tenors. I had (and sold boohoo) a beautiful silver neck, full pearls early S20 tenor, in the 70's. My friend had(still has) a mint Silversonic tenor. ( i don't recall the year) At the time i "hated" his but loved mine; the Silversonic seemed like it had a rag stuffed in the bell compared to mine. It was tite with a more centered tone...prettier maybe. The older horn "kicked ***** and took names!" But i had two tenors, a girlfriend/wife with 6 kids and I hadn't really had the blues yet, so one horn had to go. I kept my Yanigisawa T-500; a good compromise between the Selmer mkVI tone i couldn't afford and "that King sound" i didn't need...yet.

[Super 20 Player]

and I hadn't really had the blues yetWhich has obviously been rectified... :twisted:

[xax]

you got that right!...

[BleedingGumsMurphy]

I play a '60-something Super 20 with a silver neck, body, bow, and bell. I'm not sure if it's solid or plated, and i don't really know how to tell. I just got it last month for only about 1500 and i absolutely love it. It has a very flexible sound, and depending upon your mp/reed/lig/embouchure/air volume, you can achieve a lot of different effects.

-Bleeding Gums Murphy

p.s. I would appreciate it if someone could tell me how to tell whether the sax is solid or plated. I've been plagued by this mystery since i first opened the case a month ago today.

[Super 20 Player]

If the body and bow are silver, they're plated. It's possible that the neck and bell are solid silver. In fact, if it's an early 1960s model, it's likely that the neck is solid silver. If the bell engraving says "Silver-Sonic" then the bell is solid sterling silver as well. But my guess is someone had the whole horn silver-plated at some point.

[Sigmund451]

I can solve the mystery if you send it to me. I can cover shipping :D

[super20dan]

it may have come from the factroy that way -they did sell silver plate and even gold plate super20,s

[Super 20 Player]

I knew that full-body gold-plate was an original factory option, but I didn't think silver-plate was. Seems silly that they'd offer one and not the other, but I've never seen a silver-plate Super 20 that wasn't an after-market job. I just don't know.

[Super 20 Player]

No, it's not mine, and I don't know the seller. I just saw it this morning, and I want others to see it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64454&item=7328068292

[CashSax]

Unbelievable condition..the finest I've ever seen..my own #390xxx Alto S/S w/gold inlay is close, I'd call mine 99% cherry..but that Ebay horn looks even better. It may hit 5 Grand..!?!?!?! simply incredible, but IMHO worth every penny. :shock:

[Super 20 Player]

I snatched all the pictures and put them in my new flickr.com photo album:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/super20player/sets/429825/

[CashSax]

Whew..$6600.00 it went for.It was a beauty. :shock:

[super20dan]

wow! this is the first one that i have seen thats as nice as the one i have. and i paid 950$ for mine back in 81 . these pics should go up on saxpic,s site

[Super 20 Player]

wow! this is the first one that i have seen thats as nice as the one i have. and i paid 950$ for mine back in 81.You lucky devil. :D

[blackfrancis]

Sign me up! I've played a Super 20 for years. s/n 333xxx. Traded (straight across) a cherry Balanced Action for it. I guess the other guy thought he was getting the better end of the deal. Nothin' like it for tone, from ppp to lethal.

[CashSax]

My poor S20 is a closet horn ..can't get a decent gig to pay for bringing a premium tenor.I play my LA Sax & my VI mostly...but I need to Whup the 20 once in awhile. :evil:

[Mike Ruhl]

My poor S20 is a closet horn ..can't get a decent gig to pay for bringing a premium tenor.I play my LA Sax & my VI mostly...but I need to Whup the 20 once in awhile. :evil:Take that, Mark VI fans!

:sign5:

[Fred]

I may be getting a Super 20 alto soon that will be in need of an overhaul. Are there any special considerations for pads and resos on these beauties? If I get it, I'd like to keep it pretty versatile - wouldn't want to go wild on the resos but still want to be true to the sax.

Anybody out there specialize in King overhauls, or are they pretty standard in that regard?

[Mike Ruhl]

The King keywork mechanism is kind of unique, and you do have to pay attention to pad height/thickness to get the best intonation.

Sarge at World Wide Sax (www.worldwidesax.com (http://www.worldwidesax.com)) has a great reputation. You have to be careful who choose, though. (http://www.neworleans.bbb.org/commonreport.html?compid=10001527)

You never know, there may be someone local to you with experience working on these horns.

[Mike Ruhl]

Just thought I'd call an impromptu meeting. Hope everyone is doing ok.

Check out this silver-plated tenor on the Tenor Madness website. More pics here (http://www.tenormadness.com/productPhotos.asp?productCode=520434SilverKingS20T enorDMCLA&photos=10&onPhoto=1&productName=520xxx+Silver+King+S20+Tenor+Saxophone )
http://www.tenormadness.com/images/productFullsize/520434SilverKingS20TenorDMCLA1.jpg

[primetime]

Here's another to add to the club...I just got a 278xxx S20, with the full pearls and everything....wow. That's all that needs to be said about this horn. Wow. Now I know why there's a huge S20 fan club post...wow. That's it. It can take so much air and make it sound great...wow! Hope to play it a lot more...(In fact, I'm going to go do that right now!)

[Mike Ruhl]

Here's another to add to the club...I just got a 278xxx S20, with the full pearls and everything....wow. That's all that needs to be said about this horn. Wow. Now I know why there's a huge S20 fan club post...wow. That's it. It can take so much air and make it sound great...wow! Hope to play it a lot more...(In fact, I'm going to go do that right now!)Welcome to the Club. You are now officially "Prime Time". :salute: :king:

[SilverNeck20]

Here's another to add to the club....(In fact, I'm going to go do that right now!)

Just curious,what were you playing on?

[Mike Ruhl]

I clipped this from the Equipment section of Prime Time's public profile:

Equipment:
1967 Mark VI Alto
1940's King Super 20 Alto
1950's Rampone Tenor
Gemeinhardt Flute

[super20dan]

cash -the last time i played mine was for new years eve 1999. i figured that was a special enough occasion.

[vermontsax]

Another to add to your list. I picked up my 465xxx Super 20 in '98 or '99 from a percussionist. He told me he had always wanted to learn to play sax but never had the patience or time to do it. He felt (rightly so) that this horn deserved to be played; that it was wrong for it to be set aside for so long collecting dust. So I bought it for $1000.

It was my first pro-model sax. It simply blew away my Yamaha student model sax that had served me so well for several years. I just recently had it overhauled (something it truly had needed from the start but I only had the cash for recently) and it plays and feels even better!

I have played this horn everywhere from Catholic church masses to hard-rockin' R&B gigs. I play a Bari 7* with 2-1/2 Rico Royals (or Vandorens) and can play soft and melodic to loud, brassy and screaming.

In summary, I love it and haven't found a sax yet that I would give it up for.

[Mike Ruhl]

Welcome aboard, vermontsax. Alto or tenor?

[-88-]

Oh guys! I Read whole thread. You're making me search for a Super 20 alto. I have to. It's all your fault.

Can anyone proffer opinion on these sources? OR other suggestions other than local pawn shops which I am already checking.

1- http://www.vintagesax.com/

2- http://www.worldwidesax.com/

3- http://www.tenormadness.com/

4- http://www.saxquest.com/

[JL]

88, those are all highly reputable dealers and I doubt you'd go wrong with any of them. I can personally vouch for vintagesax, since I've bought a couple of great horns there. Galye is a master technician and she'll steer you right. I notice she has a nice Super 20 alto on there right now. She also has a very fair trial period. Good luck finding that elusive perfect horn!

[-88-]

Thanks JL. Appreciate it. It is interesting that the horn she is selling appears to matche the one pictured on 'saxpics.com'

My hope is to find a Cleveland, but....oh well, you already know all the 'buts'. Thanks.

[saxmanglen]

*Warning: Drool rag needed!

Take a look at this:

http://www.saxcorral.com/product_info.php?products_id=60&osCsid=fcf5db3e5b9b4f0127efb7e585f1e717

I saw it in peson Friday!

Edit: Here's a missing pic not shown on the site.

http://www.saxcorral.com/images/body.JPG

[-88-]

Oooouuu! Over all an elegant looking lady!

Anyone know what the cap is just past the cork?

[saxmanglen]

They've got a couple of wrong pictures with the listing. One of them a Mark VI neck with what looks like a repair to some type of pickup. The other probably the serial number of the same Mark VI.

If you look at the picture with the sax on the stand you can see the silver neck with the underslung octave key.

Edit: I posted the missing Pic in the above post

[-88-]

Yeah, it would have been nice for the photo of the serial to be legible. Wonder what its voice is like?

[saxmanglen]

That serial number picture isn't of the Silversonic anyway.

I'll be up that way next Wednesday. I may just have to go in and give it a blow with a couple of my own pieces.

[-88-]

First hand beats conjecture everytime!

[saxmanglen]

I posted the missing Pic in the above post

[martysax]

Pretty horn, too bad it's not a Cleveland '20 looking like that.

[-88-]

What am I? Crazy?

I just paid an obscene amount of money for an Eastlake Silversonic (probably 1973 vintage). Buyer's remorse! (sorta, but not really). Okay...that's over the top. I don't really mean obscene, it just feels that way paying out the dollars until I have the horn in hand. It'll be two weeks before I hear it. Gad!

Well I did say 'First hand'. Have faith for me brothers!

[SilverNeck20]

Hope you didn't buy it from the sax corral, talk about obscene pricing..............:? :? :?

[saxmanglen]

I agree on the "obscene" picing. I believe it's pretty much a "sticker" price. VERY negotiable, if you get my drift........

[-88-]

No, in fact I got it from Gail Fredenburgh, who while I have never done biz with her before, seems to be really assembled right as a person and a company.

Her price? $3400 for a mint Super 20 Silversonic made (my guess in 1973). She has put in Ferree's DeJour leather pads and installed a slightly domed metal resonator as the original super 20s had, set the horn up with light action (my preferred). The pictures of the horn are on her web site at vintagesax.com and I must say, it sure looks to be what she says it is: near mint. Yes there's a tiny dent on the bow, but that's required isn't it?

My understanding is that since it's coming from Gayle I ought to count my blessings. Let's see...that two blessings for every dollar paid. Right?

What do you guys think?

[JL]

My understanding is that since it's coming from Gayle I ought to count my blessings.

What do you guys think?

Absolutely. Gayle knows how to set up a horn to play at its best and her prices are not at all out of line for what you're getting. Enjoy that Silversonic!

[-88-]

Thanks JL. I am really looking forward to this.

[-88-]

The Silversonic just arrived!

Oh my god!!!

What regret!!! That I didn 't get a Super-20 in my life earlier!!! Gayle did a superb job. She's the queen of rebuilds!!

This horn! This voice! This keyboard! The action!

I can tell you one thing. Gayle is NOT getting this Silversonic back. What a gorgeous horn in the hands, what a sound!!

Need to find the right piece. Any suggestions? Going for pure sex here. Anything less would not do this kitten justice. Can you guys tell me what your preferred pieces are for this horn?

[TenorReinier]

Just a plain ol' link. Slap a rico on it and groove.

However, to each his own, a mouthpiece is a personal thing.
Congrats on your new horn, you'll love it more every day.

[Mike Ruhl]

Need to find the right piece. Any suggestions? Going for pure sex here. Anything less would not do this kitten justice. Can you guys tell me what your preferred pieces are for this horn?Super 20 tenors are very mpc friendly, probably more so than any other tenor I've ever played. Just a pick a good, quality mpc, and have fun.

fwiw, I played the Link STM/Rico combo for a good while. Still do, on occasion. It's a lush, fat sound, but it may not project as well as you like. The Ponzol M1 is a good alternative. If you want more cut, try a Ponzol M2. The rubber Ponzol Custom (hard rubber version of the M2) is also great, imho.

Or, you can go another road, and try to stick with round chambered mpcs. The trick is dialing in the chamber size. I went from my Florida Link STM to a Hite 128 hard rubber, and found that the Hite retains all the round-chamber fatness of the Link, but the smaller chamber gives a better tonal center, and tunes better across the horn.

Since I prefer round chambers, I've always wanted to try the Morgan Excalibur. That would really kick on a Silver-Sonic tenor.

Of course, if you have any money left :wink: you could always try one of Fred Lamberson's mpcs. I'm sure any of those would work great.

[martysax]

I always thought my Florida STM 8* was too stuffy on my Super 20. Nice tone, but not penetrating.

For proper penetration, I use the Dukoff Miami SPC D8.

[saxmanglen]

For proper penetration, I use the Dukoff Miami SPC D8.


Uhhhhhh........................................... ........never mind.:D

[Mike Ruhl]

Keep it clean. We're probably under surveillance as it is...

[saxmanglen]

Marty's always under surveillance, isn't he?

[Mike Ruhl]

Marty and me, both.

[larry]

FWIW: I'm currently using a JJ ESP 7 on my 388,xxx Silversonic tenor and love it! Talk about volume though...stand back Nelly!

[saxmanglen]

Also FWIW, I tried several Supers and a couple of Silversonics a few weeks ago. I played them both with a JJ ESP 120 (Older Model) and a HR Barone "Vintage" model 8*. For me I actually preferred the Barone on the Kings. Again, that's the way "I" heard it and I only played each horn for a few minutes. They didn't seem too picky with either piece.

Glen

[martysax]

Keep it clean. We're probably under surveillance as it is...

Shhhhh, Kim and Jim have too much fun with me as it is.

I really wanted to say piercing instead of penetration, but the vision of impalement still applied. Oh well.

BTW Mike, Getz fan, Did I ever tell you how Stan was described upon putting on a towel after a shower? E.T.!

[-88-]

Those all sound like great suggestions! You guys are making me wish I also had a Super-20 tenor, BUT this Super-20, however, is an Alto. I am trying out some modern pieces; a Jody ESP 7, DV (he now has them for Alto), HR 7, Barone HR 8L, Paul Tenny Meyer medium chambered.

By the way, saxmanglen, where did you EVER get that avatar?

[saxmanglen]

By the way, saxmanglen, where did you EVER get that avatar?


I used google images and searched for ugly/funny looking cats and dogs. I've downloaded a few of the pics and used an avatar editor program to crop to size. Pretty funny, eh?

[martysax]

I used google images and searched for ugly/funny looking cats


Don't tempt me!

Back on topic:

I don't have a Super 20 alto, but almost bought a silversonic as old as my tenor last year. Damn, I should have. My Meyer 5 medium sounded sweet on it. I should have bought it.

[-88-]

Thanks guys. Before you said anything, I tried a Jody DV 8, newly done for Alto and a Meyer Tenney 6M. The Meyer is okay, but it's like trying to breathe through a soda straw...and this was Paul Tenney's personal recommendation too! Proves that everyone experiences things differently.

Think I'll send the Tenney back and try your recommendations. The DV8 from Espina is kickin' and a keeper.

[Turnaround]

Hello Super 20 fans. Just joining in for the first time. I have 2 Cleveland altos. They both play well with a Meyer 5, but I mostly play on a SR Tech L-85. It has a Meyer feel to me, but much more projection.

[-88-]

My Meyer is sweet in tone, but gad zooks, it won't take much air.

Note to saxmanglen: Thanks, what's the avatar editor, sounds like god, but seriously.

[saxmanglen]

Here's the site for the Avatar editor:

http://www.jql.co.uk/avatarsizer.htm

[Mike Ruhl]

Upawholestep - welcome aboard!

Another great freeware graphics tools is Irfanview www.irfanview.com (http://www.irfanview.com)

It's been around for a long time. It handles all graphics formats, and has a boatload of features, including image resizing.

Irfanview lets you specify transparent colors in .gif an .png files, so that you can change something that looks like this:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/the_ruhls/opticalsax.jpg

To look like this:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/the_ruhls/opticalsax.gif

[-88-]

Such tools! Will check into both. Thanks

[saxdad]

Hi guys, I'm new to this group and I don't play sax ... but my 13yo son does (tenor). He's been playing a rented Yamaha YTS-23 which was OK, but when he joined the jazz band this year it seemed time to buy him his own. I picked up an Eastlake Zephyr (437xxx) in decent condition on eBay for about $700. No noticeable dings or dents and lacquer is near 100% with sharp engraving. After some minor repairs, pad replacements, recorking, and adjustments (another $100) this horn really sounds good and my son loves it.

Then just when I thought this was settled, we were given an Eastlake Super 20 (568xxx) which had been owned and played for many years by a recently deceased friend of the family. Also came with 2 metal mouthpieces - a well-used Otto Link 3* and another that just says King on it and looks brand new. The horn itself has a couple of small dings in it and the lacquer is gone where it rubbed on the owners clothes when it was played (I consider these more to be evidence of honorable use than defects). I'm guessing that the former owner bought this horn new - possibly direct from the Eastlake plant or a worker there (would you believe he was an Eastlake city councilman for several years?). The horn is in the shop for minor adjustments right now, but I could not believe how excited the repair tech got when he opened the case and saw it was a Super 20!

So now my kid is fully armed with two vintage King tenors (and the Yamaha is rented through June). I'm not sure what we are going to do with all this, but the Zephyr looks and sounds great so I'm reluctant to part with it. Of course, the Super 20 is a legacy inheritance that we would never sell. I'm thinking he could use the Zephyr for traditional concert band and solo/ensemble competitions, and save the S20 for jazz band (which is his main interest right now). Would you let him use either one for marching band, or is a 3rd tenor in order for that?

BTW - we also bought him a bamboo saxophone on a recent trip to Thailand, but that's a soprano.

[gotreeds]

Hi everyone,

I have just completed a trade with Dave at JunkDude music. I have traded my 1954 MK VI for two horns. A really great playing 275xxx S20 alto. Wow, what have I been missing? And an extremely rare Conn Connquerer 26M vii. I am really pleased with both instruments, but the S20 blows me away.I've been a professional saxophonist for many years with a Wash. DC military band and played a lot of Selmers, but have never played a S20. I am a convert. I have a physical problem with my neck and horns with too much resistance, but my S20 is great. It's a relacquer, but who cares, I am tickeled pink!:D :D

[-88-]

Welcome gotreeds, sounds like you got a very good deal.

[makemyday]

Hello guys (I suppose there are -as usual :cry: - no females around here),
Just found out about this forum, as I was googling to find out some things about my new tenorsaxophone: a S20 silver neck, full pearls, #299.501! Am very happy with it, although I have to take time to get used to the different pinky-cluster and a very, very heavy low C# key (was playing MVI). Also I am looking for a good case or gigbag for the horn, as most of the brands are built for selmer-type horns. Any advice?

[saxmanglen]

Hey all!

I think someone may have an avatar they'll talk about more than mine?:shock:

I better go search for some more pics............bye bye........

[TenorReinier]

hi guys
Just wanted to share with you something.
I used to play a Link STM 7* on my 390k Cleveland 20, as you can see in my avatar, which is by the way not as fancy as other people's around here nowadays ;)

Anyway I love the way these two worked together. So yesterday I thought it was really time to get ride of the Series III tenor I still owned. It didn't see any daylight for two years for obvious reasons... Tried to sell it but with no luck, so I went to a local dealer and we came to a nice agreement. Before I left the shop he wanted me to show something, a mouthpiece a he made himself. And that, my dear S20 co-lovers, was when my saxophone showed her real voice.

Everything we love about these horns (and was already there with my Link, mind you) is now doubled! Don't remember when or where, but somebody on this forum once used the following phrase to describe a S20: "It shifts and gears like no other". Well, there it is. So I bought the piece for some tough bucks, but hey, the guy had spent three weeks on the thing!

It has a very subtle roll-over baffle (no step baffle, I hate them) and has a huge tip (I think it's a 0.120 , so Link 9, but I have to measure it to be sure) but combined with a Java 2.5 I have no problems taming this beast down when I have to. I don't really know after which piece he has modelled it. He said he looked closely at Guardala's, but they mostly have baffles, don't they?
So if you think your S20 is roaring, it can always roar harder. That's the beauty of these horns. Either by swapping your piece or building better chops of course. These are ultimate horns.

(btw in the shop I compared my horn to a whole bunch of cannonballs; well :D I'm a PhD student researching dimensionality reductions, and I might start my thesis with the difference between a Cannonball and a S20. The Cannonball may have the volume, but to really roar, you gotta have multiple dimensions in the sound at all volumes, often referred to as character. A cannonball is basically a S20 ofter some serious dimensionality reduction)

Roar in peace ;)

[SilverNeck20]

Hello guys (I suppose there are -as usual :cry: - no females around here),
Just found out about this forum, as I was googling to find out some things about my new tenorsaxophone: a S20 silver neck, full pearls, #299.501! Am very happy with it, although I have to take time to get used to the different pinky-cluster and a very, very heavy low C# key (was playing MVI). Also I am looking for a good case or gigbag for the horn, as most of the brands are built for selmer-type horns. Any advice?

Welcome.................sounds like a great horn. Aside from the original King cases, I don't think you'll find any gig bag out there made for Kings. However, I've been using a Selmer flight case for years for my S20 tenor. It was never an exact fit, but it holds the horn well and I've never had a problem.

[makemyday]

so I went to a local dealer and we came to a nice agreement. Before I left the shop he wanted me to show something, a mouthpiece a he made himself

Hey Reiner,

Mind telling us who this guy is & where the shop is?:toothy7:

[TenorReinier]

Mind telling us who this guy is & where the shop is?

Sure. http://www.saxpoint.nl
Located in a little town called Epse just below Deventer. He builds custom mouthpieces according to your specs if you like. And then you can try it, have him do some finetuning, try it, finetune etc. Besides that, he's a nice guy.

[Scott Ramminger]

I am thinking of buying a bari (of some kind). Mostly I would be playing rock and R&B on the thing, some jazz, no classical all. I want a bright, robust, loud horn. And I have it in my head that a Super 20 Bari might be just the ticket. I like the Super 20 altos and tenors.

However, I have looked on e-bay, on many of the web sites of vintage sax folks, done google searches, etc. In the past several months I have never found any Super 20 baris for sale anywhere at any price.

I am curious about several things:

1) Has anyone played one, and -- if so -- what are your opinions.
2) What's the deal? How come you never see them?
3) Does anyone have an idea of a price range for these horns if you can find them.

My gut tells me that because I haven't even seen ONE for sale, that if I did find one, it would have a premium price tag.

Any help would be appreciated.

Scott Ramminger

[benliner]

Hello to the fan club from Basingstoke, UK
From what I had heard about them a few years ago I decided I would like one day to own a King. At my local sax group last week I heard a guy play this horn that was far louder than anyone else's, and it was his newly acquired super 20. He let me handle it, now I just HAVE to get one.
But I need to know the answers to some questions. I am sorry there are so many, the first question is the most important:

Did the sound of these horns change from one type to another between 40's-50's to 60's, and if so, how?
Was it a gradual or sudden change?
I am a bit confused by one descripton of the Eastlakes/late Clevelands as a Jazz horn. Jazz opposed to what? Classical? Pop? I mean to me Cannonball Adderley is very different from Stan Getz/ Paul Desmond, but they are all Jazz. I am not very well versed in the terms for describing sax sounds. If it's any help, to me "piercing" sounds good! All I know is I want ultimate POWER!
Some people say that the Eastlake horns have even more of a "killer" sound. Why would this be?
What physical changes to the horn were responsible for the change? The silver neck? or lack of it? or the underslung octave?
Is the double socket neck important?
How did the bore changes leading up to the move to Eastlake, or changes after Eastlake, affect the sound?
Although I like to play 50's r'n'b and r'n'r, to me a terrific track is Jack McVea's "Wino", Joe Liggins's "Tania" and Lee Allen playing with Little Richard are also good, I enjoy later soul sounds as well, eg Junior Walker, and am into "growling" etc, so should I look for an earlier or later horn, or are there advantages in having either? just because the Eastlakes were made after the 50's, I am not sure if that would necessarily mean they are unsuitable for playing 50's sounds.
Currently I have a mid 50's Dolnet Bel-Air which I am very pleased with, but it was out blown by this super 20!. I have had some success in improving my sound with different mouthpieces, recently bought a Dukoff D8, (soft, aren't they?) and also with shaving the edges of my reeds.
My best wishes to the club, and hope to be able to join you soon.

[davidk]

Hi Ben

There's some archives of this forum at http://www.saxpics.com/the%5Fgallery/king/misc/kings20club/. The first thread contained in 1.doc contains a discussion about Eastlake vs Cleveland models.

From looking at the Saxpics site, it looks like all the double-socketed neck versions have the same bore, with the modern keywork you're looking for from the 305xxx models on. The bore evolved between 380xxx and 426xxx into the Eastlake bore. What changed and when is something someone else here might be able to answer.:?

Other changes in sound could be caused by the materials - combinations are all brass, silver neck, silver neck and bell. Again, someone here may have compared the materials.:dontknow:

There is a silver-necked Eastlake located in London on eBay at the moment: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KING-SUPER-20-TENOR-SAXOPHONE_W0QQitemZ7398819592QQcategoryZ16234QQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem. This will the same as the Eastlake you tried on Monday (I'm guessing you're the Ben that tried my sax), except for the silver neck. Provided it's well set up, you should get a fair comparison.

Other stuff I've gleaned about the Eastlake models are that in the mid 70s imported body tubes were used - these have drawn tone holes rather than the braised-on ones used on US-made tubes. The bell tone holes are always braised on, so it is the body tube you need to look at. I think there was an overlap in production using these two body tube types, so a serial number boundary can't be easily defined. These drawn body tonehole models should be cheaper than the braised tonehole models, and indeed are. However, the early (braised tonehole) Eastlake models are in the same price bracket as the later ones (drawn tonehole), despite being the genuine article, and you can therefore save quite a bit over a late Cleveland by getting one of these.

So basically your choices are a post 305xxx double-socket in silversonic, silver-necked or all brass (the silver neck was optional after 340xxx), and an early Eastlake again in silversonic, silver-necked or all brass. I don't know what happened with the single-socket neck clevelands. Anyone?:help:

Good luck in your search

David

[benliner]

Hah!
Dave, it's you!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for answering, There's a couple of 466xxxs available at the moment.
I didn't know about the imported bodies from the mid 70's on and haven't seen any reference to that anywhere else either, do you have a closer idea of when that change occurred?
I'm assuming it wouldn't affect anything around 466xxx.
The info in Saxpics seems to imply that double socket necks went out at 380xxx, and this is corroborated by the available photo's, I looked at them all and all the series 3's had doubles, and all the 4's had singles.
I've looked at that silver neck on ebay in London, but I couldn't match his price, (he told me what the reserve was when I went to see him, but I don't think it would be fair to publish it here)
See you in a week or two mate.
Ben

[Jaybird]

Ben,

The only differences from the earlier model Super 20s that I know of as far as design are (like you said) the underslung octave mechanism, and the fact that some of them have a double socket neck and the different combinations of silver and brass for the bell and neck. If and how this affects the sound of the horn I have no clue. I think the biggest difference that is going to affect your wallet is that the earlier models have more elaborate engraveing on them and some of the early Super 20s also had mother of pearl keys. As far as whether the earlier or later horns have a better sound, I think that's all going to be a matter of opinion. I have heard some people say that the earlier horns are better and then again I've heard some people, like my teacher, say that they prefer the later models. I own a Super 20 Silversonic in the 600,000 serial# range and I love it. Just try out as many as you can and forget all the opinions about what is better between earlier/later model Super 20s, becasue when it comes down to it, that's all you're hearing is opinions. Try 'em all out and pick the one that you like best, because you're going to be the one playing the horn which means that the only opinion that matters is yours. Good luck, and I hope you find a horn that you really enjoy.

[shmuelyosef]

I've had a few Super 20s (and Zephyrs) and played a few more...in my opinion the bodies with the brazed-on toneholes have quite a different sound than the later ones with the drawn THs (I'm pretty sure these bodies were imported from Japan). But I can't really tell much difference among the brazed-on TH horns up through about 600,000...somewhere around there they changed, but I don't know when. I have also found the response of Super 20s to be a bit more sensitive to setup than some other designs...key height in particular, but also reso size. I offer the conjecture that this is perhaps responsible for the wide variation in perception of people who have only played 2 or 3 S20s. The one S20 that I have kept is an Eastlake 454xxx, and I have set it up to my taste (set up as a 'bar' R&R horn with large domes, modest key height, neck tenon real tight, etc...) and it pleases me more than any other S20 I have played recently, including horns that I have set up for others (although to their tastes rather than mine).

[shmuelyosef]

I've had a few Super 20s (and Zephyrs) and played a few more...in my opinion the bodies with the brazed-on toneholes have quite a different sound than the later ones with the drawn THs (I'm pretty sure these bodies were imported from Japan). But I can't really tell much difference among the brazed-on TH horns up through about 600,000...somewhere around there they changed, but I don't know when. I have also found the response of Super 20s to be a bit more sensitive to setup than some other designs...key height in particular, but also reso size. I offer the conjecture that this is perhaps responsible for the wide variation in perception of people who have only played 2 or 3 S20s. The one S20 that I have kept is an Eastlake 454xxx, and I have set it up to my taste (set up as a 'bar' R&R horn with large domes, modest key height, neck tenon real tight, etc...) and it pleases me more than any other S20 I have played recently, including horns that I have set up for others (although to their tastes rather than mine).

[Robert_Allan]

There are two differences in the various vintages of Super 20's being
discussed here that have not been mentioned, and they are the table
keys, and the mechanism/linkage that activates the octave key.

After the pearls vanished in the mid '50's, the G# key was a nice,
oval shaped design. Shortly after the doublesocket necks disappeared,
which actually occurred sometime after 382K, the design of the table
key's changed and became more square in appearance. Personally I don't
like the change in appearance, and I think it's an inferior design
that makes the horn more difficult to play when performing certain
passages, especially moving around between certain combinations of
the table keys.

The octave key linkage changed dramatically shortly after the
demise of the double-socket necks, and the change was definitely
a step backwards.

The difference between the table keys and the octave key mechanism
are the two reasons I'd look for something at or earlier than 382K.
If you try both designs, I think you would find you preferred the
early models.

Also, the earlier kings around 290k don't use as many needle posts
that the rods sit and rotate on, and there is no use of locking
nuts -- I think. The linkage is much more open on the earlier
models, although slightly more sluggish when compared to the later
models that started around 305K.

And horns from about 295 - 305k have an undesirable G# key design
that negatively affects the value of the instrument, and also makes
them more challenging to play.

Also, changing from flat resonators to domed ones very noticably
thickened and focused the sound on a Silver Sonic that I have.

[Mike Ruhl]

Robert, thanks for that post. So, if I read you right, Super 20s in the 305xxx - 382xxx have the more desireable keywork features?

Nice to know, since I play a 369xxx tenor...

[Robert_Allan]

Robert, thanks for that post. So, if I read you
right, Super 20s in the 305xxx - 382xxx have the more desireable
keywork features?

Nice to know, since I play a 369xxx tenor...


Yes, in my opinion, which usually isn't worth much, the best keywork
design for Super 20's is the full pearled models made from 305K -
to-whenever-they-were-discontinued, because those models had the best
table keys, plus the rollers were all barrel-shaped pearls. After
those it's horns up to around 382K, including the small number of
single socket neck horns that retained the earlier octave key
mechanism. There was a silver sonic on eBay like that (single-socket
neck, good octave key mechanism) about 4-6 months ago.

Just last week there was a Super 20 on eBay that had the pearl rollers
on the keys but not on the G#, palm, or side keys. I'd never seen one
like that before.

One other thing to mention about early Super 20's with serial numbers
lower than approximately 305K, the side keys are not sculpted lower
like the later models. So if you have small hands you would
definitely want to try before buying to make sure you could play it
without having the palm of your hand inadvertently bumping into those
keys. Later models are designed in a different way so that they ride
lower on the horn.

And the very earliest of the Super 20's, say around 278K or so, are
totally different: The whole table key section rides lower on the
horn, making it more of a reach to play thos keys, and the two lower
RH side keys open and close their respective toneholes with levers
designed like a see-saw, rather than the later right-angled-hinged
design.

And there's at least four types of thumb keys for the octave
mechanism, too, as well as at least four different G# keys.

[shmuelyosef]

A couple things have come up...the octave key change is a mixed blessing...the later ones are much faster and with appropriate reshaping of the thumb spatula (to emphasize the actuation on the diagonal rather than the vertical) these can actually be adjusted to be superior to the original design IMHO. The LH spatula can be retrofitted with barrel shaped single roller and it is much improved (have to turn one on a lathe...I use macor rod). One of the big problems with the double socket necks is that it is very hard to get a snug fit, which (IMHO) increases the responsiveness of the horn. You have to basically disassemble the tenon, fit the stub and then reassemble it. With the horns after 382XXX (single tenon) it is much easier to get a tighter fit and I believe this is why more of these horns are 'killer'

[Robert_Allan]

A couple things have come up...the octave key
change is a mixed blessing...the later ones are much faster and with
appropriate reshaping of the thumb spatula (to emphasize the actuation
on the diagonal rather than the vertical) these can actually be
adjusted to be superior to the original design IMHO. The LH spatula
can be retrofitted with barrel shaped single roller and it is much
improved (have to turn one on a lathe...I use macor rod). One of the
big problems with the double socket necks is that it is very hard to
get a snug fit, which (IMHO) increases the responsiveness of the horn.
You have to basically disassemble the tenon, fit the stub and then
reassemble it. With the horns after 382XXX (single tenon) it is much
easier to get a tighter fit and I believe this is why more of these
horns are 'killer'


My first S20 was 394K horn and the way the octave mechanism see-sawed
was always a constant source of aggravation, and required regular
adjustment, which is the experience my comments were based on. I
recall having a conversation with the the sax tech I use about the
post 382K octave mechanism, and he was wondering what they had been
doing. It's certainly not the best octave key actuation system,
that's for sure.

As far as getting a tight fit on a double-socket neck, the same
aforementioned tech had no problems refitting mine, and he did
it in about 1 minute while I waited. I don't know what it was
he did, but he fixed it.

And boy am I careful taking those necks on and off, and when
moving the mouthpiece on the neck. When the neck is attached
to the horn, I always support the effort by firmly holding
onto "the neck only," and I always remove the neck from the
horn before removing the mouthpices from the neck - which
I hope keeps the wear and tear to a minimum.

[shmuelyosef]

It is easy to get the neck to 'clamp tight' with the outer socket, but the inner socket is actually much thicker and supports and seals much better...expanding it and lapping it to fit requires removing the outer socket OR compressing the receiver, which I don't generally like to do (although I can't tell you why I don't like to)....just doesn't seem right, somehow. This might be an interesting topic for the maintenance column, as I have never really thought deeply about it.

A well-fitted neck should play well with the clamp screw not tightened in my opinion, and you should feel some resistance as you insert and remove it, but not enough that you get friction or have to feel like you're really pushing hard on the neck. I always tell folks to hold the bell firmly in your right hand and insert the neck with your left...gives the best stability and reduces the chance of damaging the tenon.

[Robert_Allan]

It is easy to get the neck to 'clamp tight' with
the outer socket, but the inner socket is actually much thicker and
supports and seals much better...expanding it and lapping it to fit
requires removing the outer socket OR compressing the receiver, which
I don't generally like to do (although I can't tell you why I don't
like to)....just doesn't seem right, somehow. This might be an
interesting topic for the maintenance column, as I have never really
thought deeply about it.

A well-fitted neck should play well with the clamp screw not
tightened in my opinion, and you should feel some resistance as you
insert and remove it, but not enough that you get friction or have to
feel like you're really pushing hard on the neck. I always tell folks
to hold the bell firmly in your right hand and insert the neck with
your left...gives the best stability and reduces the chance of
damaging the tenon.


This conversation reminds me of an idea I had once when the
double-socket necked horn mentioned previously needed to be resized:
What effect, if any, would a rubber o-ring have that pressed up into
the gap between the two diameters of the neck socket? If it was made
of high quality rubber, like a carburetor o-ring, for example, it
might last a fairly long time and provide an absolutely airtight
seal. I don't know what kind of clearance there is up inside the
neck of a S20, but if there's space a little o-ring could make a
difference. It may also be possible to have one that sits on the
bottom of the horn sleeve, or whatever it's called, that seals
around the base of the neck tenon.

[VaSaxPro]

Just a question but are the Super 20 altos without the silver neck any good? I'm looking at buying one to restore and it has the underslung octave key with serial around 470xxx.

[shmuelyosef]

The brass neck S20s are just as awesome IMHO as the silver-necks. The difference is subtle...it mostly the coolness factor of the silver that makes you feel different. The only real careful experience I've had is my current S20 tenor (454xxx) for which I have both a silver and brass neck. If I don't pay attention, I really can't tell the difference, but on recordings I can hear a subtle edge that comes from the silver neck that isn't present with the brass...could be in my head.

[T.S.]

I own a 1976 tenor 576xxx (brass underslung necked originally-now with Silver Gloger neck) that has brazed tone holes. I've played an early 600xxx Sml Silver necked (Over the top octave key with the unique SML neck brace) that also had brazed on tone holes..So I'm not sure when or where the imported body drawn tone holed versions actually showed up.
Brass necked horns are great,big and somewhat dark sounding (to my ears). I find that the silver subtley opens up the High Harmonics and has a more pleasing core sound to it, though I'm sure most listener's would never know.
I much prefer the more modern left pinky cluster on Supers...with the exception of that blasted somewhat heavy C#, its easier for me to get around on than the more modern MKVI floating cluster in most instances (Plus, I've been playing my horn since I bought it new in 1977, so I'm very comfortable with it..)
To the best of my knowledge, the bore and bow size pretty much stayed the same during the production life.
Someone said-Perhaps the cat at Cybersax- that you don't own a Super, you adopt it....
Mine certainly is like a family member...I'm so glad I bought it when I did.

[bobsax]

I just glanced at it and had it on my watch list . Did I miss something Why didn't it sell ?
--bob
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7405696826&ssPageName=ADME:B:DS:US:28

[Mike Ruhl]

I just glanced at it and had it on my watch list . Did I miss something Why didn't it sell ?
--bob
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7405696826&ssPageName=ADME:B:DS:US:28The seller ended the auction early.

[Rodrigo Schirm]

Just got a Tenor Super 20 SilverSonic 400XXX.
Wow! I'm impressed. I think I'll never part with it.
What a sound!!

I've always had Selmers: a Balanced Action for 5 years and a Silver SA80 for 3 years. Both are great horns, the BA had a nice tone and the SA80 is a great all around axe. I'm still keeping the SA80, but I'll have sell it.
But the greatest tone is the Super20. I like the ergonomy very well. I'm
just adapting to the low C/Eb. Don't have problems with the pinky table at all.

I'm using a Link early babbit 7* and is just perfect.
Just sharing my experience.

[-88-]

Welcome Rodrigo. I have a 400XXX Silversonic alto and love it. I'd like to have a tenor SilverSonic too. Wanna sell yours? Just kidding.

On a more serious note, pun intended, I urge you to try a Fred Lamberson mouthpiece. I have one of his 7SB pieces and I'll take it to the grave. What an absolutely outstanding piece!

[Rodrigo Schirm]

Thanks for the info. Here in Brazil is difficult get some pro mpcs. Certainly, if I have the chance I'll give a Lamberson 7SB a try.

How do you rate this piece? Overly Bright?

[-88-]

No! The Lamberson is clear voiced, balanced. Compared to my Jody HR and my Barone HR both of which are stuffy compared to the Lamberson. And, the Lamberson reaches notes both high and low registers with more ease by far. I am retiring the Jody HR, Barone HR, and Jody DV (metal) in strong favor of the Lamberson. I suspect Lambersons will be traded someday on the internet at exhorbitant prices. Fred Lamberson is the only human being making these. Let's hope he stays around for a while.

[super20dan]

i am one of the few who own a super20 bari and i can tell you it lives up to the super20 name in spades! its simply awesume. i used to over power the rest of the sax section with it eaisly and boy was it something on r&b gigs! no other bari i have played even comes close! including conns! too bad they are so rare that others cant get the experience of playing one

[David Blurton]

I'm on the verge of buying a super 20, but should I go for a 1967 Silver Sonic, or a 1955 Super 20?? How much difference does the silver bell make?

[Super20Duper]

David, there is absolutely no way anybody can answer that question I believe. The silversonic could be a lemon and the '55 can play like a dream, or the other way around. The only way to find out is to try them both.

However, contradicting my own post, I think that all Super 20's coming from Cleveland basically are good horns and once properly setup, they all have that typical King-Tzsing-with-a-fat-bottom qoing on. It's all in the setup. (and the player ;) )

[swapsax]

David, there is absolutely no way anybody can answer that question I believe. The silversonic could be a lemon and the '55 can play like a dream, or the other way around. The only way to find out is to try them both.

However, contradicting my own post, I think that all Super 20's coming from Cleveland basically are good horns and once properly setup, they all have that typical King-Tzsing-with-a-fat-bottom qoing on. It's all in the setup. (and the player ;) )

I'll go for the first part of your post...there are some mediocre Cleveland horns
and some great early East Lakes...

[catseyeweb]

Have just bought a early '60's (397,xxx) Super 20 Tenor. It needs a few things, so it's in the shop. I need the C/Bb keyguards. Anyone know where I can get them, or what might be a good match?

[bobsax]

Here's one on eBay that looks nice . I don't have any connection to the seller but it's fun to see how much they go for .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280058070983&fromMakeTrack=true

[Robert_Allan]

Have just bought a early '60's (397,xxx) Super 20 Tenor. It needs a few things, so it's in the shop. I need the C/Bb keyguards. Anyone know where I can get them, or what might be a good match?


Item number: 330054473333

For some reason the auction was cancelled. I'd contact the seller and see if he can help you. Be careful how you ask, though.

[Sjax20]

[I have moved this post about King Ampliphonics to a new thread: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=52800]

[saxdad]

Sjax20 - I think you are aking an excellent question which is not likelly to get the attention it deserves on the last page of this thread. I encourage you to use the same posting as the beginning of a new thread specific to this issue. I will be interested to see what the experts have to say about King "Ampliphonics".

regards - saxdad

[pelez]

sjax20, i have King Ampliphonic but i never tried it, may be somebody can share about King Ampliphonic

by the way, i am currious what`s the different the King of H. N. White Co. and the King of Cleveland ? i have the Cleaveland on the signature, but i didnt know the different from HN, which one the best??

[Sjax20]

Indeed, Saxdad, it my post about King Ampliphonics didn't receive much attention, so I moved it to a new thread... (http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=52800)

[super20dan]

well i have a super 20 bari and can tell it it roars like no other bari can. just an awesume insterment for rock and roll etc. originally i bought it as a back up to my mk6 but after just one gig on it -it became my no1 as my avatar is proof

[DaQuietStorm]

I've just purchased a King Super 20 and I'm impressed with the ease of playing it. I'm still an intermediate player and just moved up from a beginners mouthpiece to an Otto Link Metal #6. It's a small adjustment for me but the tone on the Super 20 is smooth as silk.

I'm debating whether to make this my main sax or my Cannonball.

:D

[martysax]

I'm debating whether to make this my main sax or my Cannonball.

:D

If you live in Cleveland, the choice is obvious.

[-88-]

Marty's right, you don't want to be disingenuous to your home town do you?
By the way, Marty, you've turned your wife's target practice and she is aiming at you, hope that's not an omen. She's just practicing, right?

[martysax]

Marty's right, you don't want to be disingenuous to your home town do you?
By the way, Marty, you've turned your wife's target practice and she is aiming at you, hope that's not an omen. She's just practicing, right?

When the Avatar vs. name placement changed to its current configuration, a fellow currently banned member flipped it for me.

She's always aiming at me. I live under the gun.

She's also a Republican.

[DaQuietStorm]

I currently use an Otto Super Tone Master #6 which is a bright metal mouthpiece for my Super 20. The problem is that my Super 20 is already bright and the mouthpiece gives the high register an annoying buzz. The rubber mouthpiece I use is a student #5 but is too close for me. What mouthpiece would anyone recommend that's dark sounding and open for a bright horn?

I'm trying to get the traditional jazz or bebop sound and a metal mouthpiece is not getting me there.

[JL]

I'm trying to get the traditional jazz or bebop sound and a metal mouthpiece is not getting me there.

Are you talking about a tenor or alto? In either case, the metal is not the issue. The size of the chamber, presence or lack of a baffle, and tip opening are the factors that matter, not the material. I always thought Otto Links were relatively dark mpcs. Maybe the one you have has a baffle? Do a search or look in the mouthpieces thread for something titled "dark mouthpieces." You'll find lots of recommendations.

[Hobbes]

Hi all !
I get it ! finally I found it.
a 354xxx Super20, silver neck, double socket. Very nice condition and with a great sound too. :-P ~
Sound, ergos, cosmetic, sensations, weight !! (is light!!)... all seems very very good !
Now I am testing my mpc/reed setup. I always play with a RPC.R(105) and sometimes with RPC.B(115) and with ZZ nº3. For some reason that setup dont fit as well as in Selmers. I have a similar problem with a 269 zephyr.
The RPC are great mpc and I dont want change it. Perhaps I need to try others reeds... any suggestion? Some guys tell me that I have to try the Alexander superials. (number equivalent to ZZ.3 ???)
My fav. music style is Blues.
Other problem is the case. I have a selmer flightech and the sax dont fit on it!, any suggestion? SKB?

[Yellowhorn]

Hi all S20 fans!

I grew up playing the clarinet in a church band in Vietnam and at times had to subsitute on an Eastlake (early '68) silversonic tenor. Back then I knew nothing about horns to appreciate the undefinable King sound, but now I do; the horn is still there and plays well after 38 years of abuse (gang rape is more accurate). As beaten up as it is, the sound is still amazing!

Anyway, I now want an S20 tenor (in addition to my current PM one). So, if anyone has one for sale, please email me pictures and how much you want for it to thang.d.nguyen@gmail.com

Thank you.

[brasscane]

How about this:

https://www.saxquest.com/productDetails.asp?productcode=313306Super20Tenor

Luckily, the pain won't last long, except of course if you are the one buying it with a credit card.

[Yellowhorn]

Thanks, Brasscane.

Annonymous and y'all S20 players here: I have been thinking, since there seems to be such a huge crowd of S20 player, why not form an online S20 club or forum, where members can share, inform, and discuss anything related to it?

Annonymous, since I don't know enough about S20 to be a moderator of a blog, would you, Dan20, or anyone volunteer to be the host of a blog? Creating one is EASY; go to www.blogger.com (I can help set it up and give the moderator the password and username, if needed).

[Swingin' Cat]

I set up a Yahoo Group for Super 20 Players a couple of years ago, and no one signed up. Seems to be a lot more interest now. Maybe I'll go reactive it.

and btw, I am 'Anonymous'...

[Swingin' Cat]

My old Yahoo Group is still out there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Super20FanClub/?yguid=220626744

And I just set up a new freebie discussion forum:
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/super20fanclub/index.php?mforum=super20fanclub

Y'all come.

[rispoli]

Annonymous and y'all S20 players here: I have been thinking, since there seems to be such a huge crowd of S20 player, why not form an online S20 club or forum, where members can share, inform, and discuss anything related to it?


I am not too sure why you'd want to remove the discussion from here.
What is the advantage in doing so?

[Yellowhorn]

Rispoli -

This site, after all, is one for the entire global sax community, and therefore, it may not be convenient or appropriate as an online club of community of a particular brand, or model, of horns, namely the King Super 20.

And as a club, members are at greater liberty to share or say things on their own forum or website without fearing that doing so will have a negative effect on others. Equally, if a member only wants to distribute something only to S20 players, then this online forum will serve as the vehicle, and SOTW may not.

In any case, it is just an idea. So, take it as it is!

[pelez]

Hi all S20 fans!

Anyway, I now want an S20 tenor (in addition to my current PM one). So, if anyone has one for sale, please email me pictures and how much you want for it to thang.d.nguyen@gmail.com

Thank you.

You are from Jakarta, i am from Bandung, the S20 is the best choice, i am beginner for horn, but until compare some sound of horn i really like of s20

[pelez]

Hi all S20 fans!

Anyway, I now want an S20 tenor (in addition to my current PM one). So, if anyone has one for sale, please email me pictures and how much you want for it to thang.d.nguyen@gmail.com

Thank you.

You are from Jakarta, i am from Bandung, the S20 is the best choice, i am beginner for horn, but until compare some sound of horn i really like of s20

By the way... I play the F second Oktave in Zypher Super 20 but the sound so terrible and false, any sugestion for this ? may be my jaws or something wrong

[Yellowhorn]

Pelez -

I just sent you a PM. Perhaps we can meet someday.

Regarding your question, it can be your horn (leaking somewhere in the upper register), but it can also be you (no offense). As a new player, your embouchure may not be tight enough; your air flow may not be sustained enough; your reed may be too light or old; or it can be something else.

I would suggest that you make long tones a permanent feature of your practice - yes, permanent, because they are some of your best friends in the art of playing horns.

[marcusb]

I play super 20 and otto link....tried a lot of reeds..best reed for me is a rico selct 2 medium.....or a very light zz reed nmr 2.( play otto link7)

[super20dan]

yahoo is way to user unfriendly!

[pelez]

Pelez -

I just sent you a PM. Perhaps we can meet someday.

Regarding your question, it can be your horn (leaking somewhere in the upper register), but it can also be you (no offense). As a new player, your embouchure may not be tight enough; your air flow may not be sustained enough; your reed may be too light or old; or it can be something else.

I would suggest that you make long tones a permanent feature of your practice - yes, permanent, because they are some of your best friends in the art of playing horns.

Yeah, i think the problem is me, since my teacher try my horn, He said there`s no problem with my horn, i think the problem is in my embouchure, any sugestion how to fix it?

[-88-]

Pelez:
It's been said elsewhere and it's become nearly a cliche because it's true: take the mouthpiece off the horn and start your practice every day by playing as much of an octave as you can. Yes you will sound like a lost duck, but one duck playing an octave. This will help your embouchure. Try it, it's fun.

[Yellowhorn]

Pelez -

It's hard for you to consume instructions thrown at you on this forum on how to build your embouchure since you are a beginner.

This, actually, is one of the first things your teacher should have started on you - even before long tones, fingering charts, and scales. It is HIS job! At the same time, he should start teaching you how to breath and blow (so you don't end up taking in air in your lungs and blow it out from there; in other words, take in and blow air from your stomach).

Another lesson your teacher should start you on is rhythm - BEFORE melodies.

Here are just a few recommendations. There are a whole lot more!

[Sjax20]

Hi S20 fans,

Just want to share that I got a serious GAS-attack: I bought a Super 20 baritone today! Actually I wasn't looking for a baritone (I never played bari), but being the happy owner of a S20 tenor I was rather curious when I saw an advertisement of someone selling this bari a couple of weeks ago. It's a 406xxx Cleveland instrument (1965). It hasn't seen a tech for 20 years, but it is still playable (even by me, even though it was the first time I tried a bari). Huge sound! The seller didn't play it a lot, and only at home. But I think that it must have been played a lot in the first half of its life, since the lacquer is worn, with many scratches, stains and small dings. But no serious dents, fortunately. There are some traces of soldering repairs: the neck (perhaps it was taken apart to remove dents?) and the octave lever is repaired (looks as if it was broken in half and resoldered). It came with the original case.
I guess I'll take it to a tech next week and decide what I should. I think it deserves a full overhaul.

Any suggestions for a mouthpiece? (It came with a mouthpiece (tip opening 4) with no brand name on it, it looks a bit cheapish).

[mikeschlot]

I've been playing a KS20 silversonic bari for about six years (#390910) What a monster! you'll love your horn. I play it in a 20 piece stage/big band and in a classic rock band and it cuts through everything. You'll love your horn.

Speaking of buying horns, i'm looking at buying a KS20 silversonic tenor, with gold inlay on the bell and underslung neck (#477097, about 1972). It plays great, recently repadded. Any sugeestions as to what to offer the guy??

[mikeschlot]

I play mine with a hard rubber Vandoren with fibracell reeds. If you've got the cash you can never go wrong with a Berg Larsen on these horns

[mikeschlot]

I use a hard rubber Vandoren B95 with great results on Bari and a Berg 125/2 on Tenor. I have two buddies also using bergs on tenor 125/1 and a 115/2. Both sound great.

[Yellowhorn]

Mike -

Go here to see a guide on how much vintage horns are worth:

http://www.saxgourmet.com/VINTAGE_SAXOPHONE_VALUE_GUIDE.htm

I had always thought that a rubber pc would not sound good on, or reveal the power of, an S2O! But now, you are telling me your friends use Berg rubber pcs on their S20's and it sounds good! Those pcs must have a large chamber and a big tip?

My all-brass S20 tenor, which is otw, comes with a rubber Berg, and its previous owner told me that it sounds good on his MK6, but sucks *** on the King! So, I am thinking of using my Runyon spoiler on the King, and the Berg on my PMauriat black pearl.

[Sjax20]

Thanks for your mpc suggestions. A friend of mine has a Berg (metal, 120) that he won't sell, but he will give it me to try and to get an idea of how it sounds.
The neck of the bari appears to be not the original neck (judging from pictures of a bari on saxpics.com. :( So perhaps I will consider ordering an after-market neck. Well, first it needs an overhaul, then I'll see how it plays.

Mike, don't know what price you should offer for the Silversonic Tenor. Prices vary a lot (at least here in The Netherlands). Besides, prices here are higher than in the states. I think a shop here would ask >4000 euri for a Silver Sonic if it's a good looking, overhauled horn. If you don't buy it in a shop, the (asking) price is of course lower.

[singlereed]

I'm looking at this because I just got a S20 alto, but regarding the baritone mouthpiece discussion ... I play a Berg .110 HR on my baritone sax (a Yani) and I have a Rico Royal metallite as my back-up. It's a grey plastic mouthpiece that I paid about the equivalent of $25 for and it is nearly as good as the Berg Larsen, with much the same playing characteristics. So that might be a smart one to check out for your King bari?

And so I joined the club with a 428K early Eastlake horn, silver neck, nickel keys, engraved bell cups, underslung octave key. Badly needs a set-up but it plays well enough to tell it's a cracker. The keys are all very smooth and fast and it sits well in the hands, immediately feeling comfortable and familiar. It's got all the orginal accessories and the flashest case I have ever seen - you can see why it would have attracted extrovert players way back when.

[Swingtone]

I'll go for the first part of your post...there are some mediocre Cleveland horns
and some great early East Lakes...

Yes, but having owned numerous examples of both myself, I have found the Cleveland horns, especially those from the 1950s, to be more substantial and sturdilly built in all respects, especially the keywork, which seems more solid and less clunky. A 1970 (early Eastlake) tenor I owned seemed lighter in weight (thinner brass?) with keywork that was somewhat noisy and just felt cheapier overall. Just my .02....

[Yellowhorn]

Swingtone -

The SN of my S20 (Eastlake) is 454XXX. The previous owner said it is an early '68, but I think it is a '70 because the King SN chart says:

406500 1965
457600 1970

If you do the math, it will show that horns of SN 454XXX were made in 1970, as opposed to 1968. According to these figures, King made 10220 horns each year between 65-70.

I can be wrong, but like to hear from you all King players!

[Sjax20]

Singlereed - Congratulations with your S20 alto!
I tried my friend's metal Berg this weekend on my S20 bari, but I don't know what to think of it yet. It's a bit hard to control and it's difficult to play in tune in the upper register (it's sharp). But the horn first needs an overhaul, and last but not least: I have to learn how to play the baritone :)

[shmuelyosef]

Production levels of the Super 20 were falling sharply during this time, as everybody was buying MK VIs, so most of these were made in the earlier part of the five year period.

[Yellowhorn]

So, Jeff, are you saying that your and my horns (SN 454) were made in '68?

[Robert_Allan]

I've been playing a KS20 silversonic bari for about six years (#390910) What a monster!


Mike,

A Silver Sonic baritone? I'm surprised that no one else reading this thread has asked you to post pictures. I know I'm not alone when it comes to wondering if such an instrument was actually ever made.

If you've got one please share a photo of it and solve the mystery once and for all.

Thank you.


Robert

[super20dan]

sjax 20 -as a long time player of the super20 bari -i recommend the ponzel custom . best by far i have ever played. a good berg rubber or metal will also work well but also grab arico metalite if you can find one. the super 20 bari is the biggest sounding bari of all time

[Sjax20]

Super20dan- In a couple of weeks I'll be visiting one or more shops to test mouthpieces. Don't know yet what's available, but I'll keep your list in mind, thanks.
My bari is is being overhauled right now, next Saturday I'll have it back! The tech said he didn't see many S20 baris, they seem to be rather rare. Why is that, do you think? Weren't they so popular back then?

[super20dan]

they are indeed rare. back when they were made -the mk6 was king and EVERY body bought that instead. i blindly stumbled across mine -was being refurbished and was an ex school system horn and wasnt abused as most were. bought mine sight unplayed by mail as a back up to my mk 6 as i was playing a lot of bari sax in a show band . once i played the king- i never looked at the selmer again! mine is all brass but who cares -its the sound that matters

[jaxstraxabrafax]

My Frau plays a very good Cleveland super 20. We've tried Mark VIs too, and "Ho-Hum" for the latter. She also plays an Eastlake S20 tenor. We're still looking for the right mpces (she doesn't soud like Yusuf Lateef....yet).

[bobsax]

Mike -

Go here to see a guide on how much vintage horns are worth:

http://www.saxgourmet.com/VINTAGE_SAXOPHONE_VALUE_GUIDE.htm


The Saxgourmet says this ;
"Except for the Saxello, I can’t find anybody expressing much interest in the Kings made before the Zephyr. I find their intonation to be sketchy at best. The engraving is beautiful, but they just don’t play very well. The Zephyr is a killer! The Zephyr Special had a solid silver neck and mother of pearl key touches. I understand there were a few made with sterling silver bells. After the mid 1950’s, the Zephyr became an intermediate model, so deduct 30%. The Zephyr baritone remained essentially unchanged throughout the production run and sound great. Most of the Zephyr series was in lacquer, add 15% for silver. 20% for gold. Around number 272XXX, the Super 20 was introduced. The first examples had mother of pearl key touches; sunburst engraving on the bell keys; socket necks; and optional sterling silver necks (add 15%) and sterling silver bells (add 30%). Around 430XXX, the Super 20 was cheapened considerably: the neck changed to a conventional style; the bell key engraving eventually went away; the mother of pearl inlay was long since gone. Deduct 25% for horns after this number. There are a few examples with gold inlay on the silver bell (add 15%), a few rare silver plated horns (I own one, add 20%); and a very few gold plated ones (add 25%). There are, of course, a very few Super 20 baritones, some with silver necks (add 15%) and I have seen one with a silver bell. I think the Kings have strong upside appreciation potential."

Saxello soprano $ 3200 add 15% for gold plate
Alto Zephyr $1800
Alto Zephyr Spcl. $2400 add 15% for silver neck
Alto Super 20 $2600 see above commentary for adjustments
Tenor Zephyr $ 2400
Tenor Zephyr Spcl $ 3000 add 15% for silver neck
Tenor Super 20 $ 3400 see above commentary for adjustments
Baritone Zephyr $ 2900
Baritone Super 20 $ 4000

He doesn't mention the Silversonic . I found one on eBay so we can watch it and see what it goes for .
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160115025516&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us

[Budget Explosion]

I like Goodson's vintage sax guide, but he's way off on the Super 20 alto. I've never seen a dealer sell a Mint condition King 20 alto for $2600. It's usually in the $3300 range.

[bobsax]

never mind

[-88-]

(self edited to protect another player). Sorry.

[Yellowhorn]

Well, folks, after three frustrating months of waiting, anger, and even despair, my all-brass Easlake Super 20 has come.

It looks, plays, and feels great. Even though it does not have the silver neck and bell, its volume is there. More importantly, that unmistakable King sound is there.

I am a happy man.

[Yellowhorn]

I should thank Trevor for being a good seller (a man of his words). Also, I want to thank those who have read and given me help, Saxland in particular, with the shipping of this horn.

Last but not least, I want to thank Jason Schwager (handle: 88) for being there for me during these trying months. Through this forum, not only have I got to sell you a horn, but also got a great friend in you!

[-88-]

Thanks. I didn't get an Eastlake Super-20, but I did get your great Black Pearl custom from the factory with silver keywork. Thang, after the modifications I did to make it my horn for my hands, it's playing with a startling response, and ergonomically, is very close to my Selmer SBA -- but they coulda moved that G# key over a bit . . .

Now I am going to have to sell my SML King Marigaux and my Conn 10M, I know, I know, I haven't taken the photo's yet. But I will never sell my King Silversonic alto. I would, however, trade it for a King Silversonic tenor.

[nhsaxes]

Greetings, fellow Super20 players. I haven't checked in here on this board for quite a while, but I am glad to see the interest continues, particularly in the bari area, one of my favorite horns.

I continue to get great satisfaction out of showing up on gigs and blowing folks away with the power of that horn. Even the drummer smiles, it's just about the only thing he can hear over the drums!

The only thing I regret is that there was never a Super 20 soprano, or I would own one to complete my set of two altos (one Cleveland silver neck and my first Eastlake, bought new in 1972), a tenor and the bari. I remember the old King ads from Downbeat magazine in the 1960s, when Cannonball Adderley was a major endorser - they often touted the King Marigaux (SML stencil) as his choice for soprano, but alas, no Super 20 sop! I play an early 80s "Martin" curved soprano that was made by Yanigasawa; it is the closest match soundwise for my Super 20 altos of any soprano I've played. Well, I've rambled long enough...

Sure is great to see players from all over the world on this board. If everyone would just play music with each other, a lot of the pain in the world would go away...

[Yellowhorn]

"If everyone would just play music with each other, a lot of the pain in the world would go away..."

Well said! The great cellist Pablo Casals had the same thought in mind when he said that in the end, "perhaps it is music that will save the world."

On your question why King never made an S20 sop, I'd think that it would be too powerful a soprano. Having said that, my RC R1 curvy is very powerful (it sounds like an alto and tenor at time).

[drakesaxprof]

Breaking news-320K-1952-full pearls-couldn't be happier!
:D

[Yellowhorn]

Whew! That looks almighty and damn minty for its age! Is that silver neck original - ie, it came with the horn from the factory?

[drakesaxprof]

Whew! That looks almighty and damn minty for its age! Is that silver neck original - ie, it came with the horn from the factory?
Yes, original neck with matching serial number. It appears that a previous owner cleaned the gold lacquer off, so it looks oddly clean. Blows incredibly well, with a remarkably in-tune scale. In-tune middle to high C# octave!
I can only imagine how well it's going to play after I get around to having Randy at Tenor Madness overhaul it.

[Yellowhorn]

So, are you saying that the neck is not silver, but gold-lacquered just like the body?

[drakesaxprof]

So, are you saying that the neck is not silver, but gold-lacquered just like the body?
No, the neck is sterling. King originally put the gold lacquer everywhere, at least on the earlier horns, including on the sterling neck and pearl key touches. Most of the lacquer has naturally worn of the pearls, though you can see it on the bis key in the above photo. However, on the neck, which often winds up looking pretty ragged with patchy worn gold lacquer exposing part of the silver, some previous owner decided to "clean up" the neck and take off the gold lacquer completely, thereby having an even appearance. Seems to have been done chemically, as I see no buffing wear, and doesn't seem to have detracted any from the sound. Here's an example of a S20 sterling neck with the original gold lacquer for comparison. Later examples that I've seen, from some time in the 1960's forward, don't show the gold lacquer on the neck at all, indicating that the practice was discontinued.

[Yellowhorn]

It seems that the neck of your horn resembles those early, Cleveland-made S20s (SN 305XXX or thereabout) whose plating has at least two layers (gold outside, sterling inside or vice-versa). This is also referred to as inlays?

I know what an all-brass (gold-lacquered) s20 neck looks like. Mine is one (neck, body, and bell).

[drakesaxprof]

It seems that the neck of your horn resembles those early, Cleveland-made S20s (SN 305XXX or thereabout) whose plating has at least two layers (gold outside, sterling inside or vice-versa). This is also referred to as inlays?

I know what an all-brass (gold-lacquered) s20 neck looks like. Mine is one (neck, body, and bell).

I've seen gold-leaf inlay patterns on the silver bell of Silversonics, but never on the neck. I imagine that on full gold-plated versions, the gold leaf or very thin plating may well be over the sterling neck, though I've never seen one. I've seen many examples of the gold lacquer over sterling neck, including this last picture, which is courtesy of pmwoodwind.com

[marcusb]

Hi guys ,,well i am a super 20 fan..i have a silversonic tenor nr 450531 which belonged to a famous dutch player called Harry Verbeke and use it in funk groups big band and jazz combo....its so versatile....its a very ""acousticsensitive"" sax ...i have used it with a hr link(big beautiful sound ) with guardala mb11 ..link stm 7 and berg larssen s115/2...still looking for the perfect combination ..i think the sterling neck works better with a hr mpc but i am still not sure about that...has anyone found a really good set up?

[Yellowhorn]

Welcome to the club, mate!

With your question, I think this thread is going to get longer, but let me start with mine:

Runyon Spoiler (metal) with a smooth bore mpc and Rico 1.5

A friend of mine uses a Dukoff D-chamber # 7 on his silversonic tenor, and it is more powerful (edgy sounding) than my set-up.

[JL]

..i think the sterling neck works better with a hr mpc but i am still not sure about that...has anyone found a really good set up?

Hey marcusb, if you want a HR mpc that will blow the roof off with that tenor, yet also play well at all volumes, get an RPC with the baffle. I don't own a Super20, but have played a couple. I use the RPC (.120B) on my VI and on a Buescher. It kills on those horns, and no doubt would really do the Super20 justice.

[marcusb]

Thanks guys,,about the rpc ..i heard only good things about this piece,,,i like my hr link but it feels a bit to big in my mouth...,,i like the shape of a meyer mpc ,,,are the dimensions of the rpc more like a meyer?..
still test playing my mb11 ..its so powerfull its scary !! especially on the super 20,,, has anyone tried a mb11 on a silversonic?

[milandro]

I am very happy to apply for membership.:)

Since a few weeks I am the happy owner of a 460XXX 1970 Eastlake, all Brass, Super 20 (does anyone have a spare silver neck you want to sell to a fellow Super 20 new aficionado ?;) :D ) my horn had, originally,as many horns in the 70's did, a pick up built in the neck but is has been nicely patched up. If I won'ìt be able to find an original silver neck I just might be tempted to buy a Gloger (he does also make one with the underslug octave...for a price!)

It has taken the place of a Selmer Mark VII 1979 (for sale now....) and I believe that it is a great deal easier to play. Great voice and Volume.

I use it with a Vandoren Blue Java T75 and a Vandoren Optimum ligature and Alexander D.C. reeds, which, as a set, somehow tames the higher frequencies of the sound giving it a mellow tone, when required, but still retaining some power and high singing voice. I will be probably experiment to see how it works with a STM Link (any ideas?).

[Sjax20]

I am very happy to apply for membership.:)

Since a few weeks I am the happy owner of a 460XXX 1970 Eastlake, all Brass, Super 20 (does anyone have a spare silver neck you want to sell to a fellow Super 20 new aficionado ?;) :D ) my horn had, originally,as many horns in the 70's did, a pick up built in the neck but is has been nicely patched up.

Congratulations, Milandro! Welcome to the club! Is it a tenor?
I have a similar horn (477XXX, tenor), which also had that pick up in the neck, and I had it patched up as well (it was leaking, and I didn't use it anyway). I bought this horn a year ago and sold my Yanagisawa. That was a good decision, I like the Super 20 very much.
The modern metal Otto Link that I used on my Yanagisawa didn't match the Super 20 very well, I think. I tried serveral mouthpieces, and I stuck to a Britone for while. Now I'm using a HR Berg Larsen (115/1/SMS), and I'm rather satisfied with it. Nice tone at all volumes. Intonation is a bit tricky with this mpc, because both the S20 and the mouthpiece have a flexible sound.

If I won'ìt be able to find an original silver neck I just might be tempted to buy a Gloger (he does also make one with the underslug octave...for a price!)
I also have a S20 bari (see my other posts in this thread), and 2 days ago I received the silver neck that Karsten Gloger made for me. The bari didn't came with the original neck, wich caused intonation problems and the tone in the upper register was a bit thin and hard to control. The Gloger neck makes a big difference! See: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=58412

Enjoy your Super 20!

[milandro]

Hi Sjax! Yes it is a tenor (sorry I didn't say that!) I like it very much indeed it will be a nice companion for my playing for years to come and maybe forever! Interesting that you don't like it with a Otto Link. I have a ebonite Berg Larsen too (also a 115 2).
Maybe I will try it again but I wasn't very happy with it the first time I've tried it especially in the low register.
A Super 20 Bari, wow. Were those proper King or SML King Marigaux? I've just started playing Bari with an ancient Conn. Difficult embouchure but very nice feeling! Battling with intonation.

[brasscane]

I am very happy to apply for membership.:)

Since a few weeks I am the happy owner of a 460XXX 1970 Eastlake, all Brass, Super 20

Just stick to the brass neck. Keep your MKVII. Eastlake & MKVII - much grittier gang than than the Cleveland/MKVI snobs. :D

Groetjes!

[milandro]

Nog een Nederlander! (Another Dutchman!)

I am sticking to the brass neck, at least, for the time being. I am afraid That one of the tenor has to go, so it will have to be the Mark VII can't keep them all.....maybe will look for a Super 20 alto....who knows!

Groetjes! ;)

[Sjax20]

Milandro - yes, the bari is a real King, build in Cleveland (1965). They're a bit rare. (found it on marktplaats.nl, by the way :) )

I also just started playing bari. It's a totally different beast as compared to the other saxes, isn't it? It's not easy, but I like it!

[milandro]

wow! I have to pay more attention! It is certainly not easy but lots of fun!

[thinkofone]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if it's okay to post this here, but I hope so!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320144678687

[milandro]

not bad at all! I wish I had the cash to meet that " Buy Now"

[Al Stevens]

A Super 20 Silversonic tenor is waiting in a closet for me to pick it up. It belonged to a friend who died last year. His widow can't consider selling it yet but wants it to be played, so, until she decides what to really do with it, it will be mine. I played it once with a metal link 7* and it is a sweet playing horn.

[thinkofone]

not bad at all! I wish I had the cash to meet that " Buy Now"

I wish I had the cash to not have to sell it!!! :(

[Robert_Allan]

not bad at all! I wish I had the cash to meet that " Buy Now"


Well it will be interesting to see if it goes as high as $3K. From the pics I think it's a relacquer, and the G# key on that vintage of instrument is the least desireable of all Super 20's. The earlier Super 20 (from about 282K - 294K) actually have a better G# setup, and I'd argue that the whole table key setup was better on the earlier ones.

Very early Super 20's have the table key's set lower, and require more of a reach to play the low C#, B, and Bb. Around 305K, the action and design of the Super 20 table keys got a lot better.

It is my impression that the full pearl Super 20 tenors (brass bell models) from this vintage seem to consistently bring less on eBay than the other vintages of full pearl Super 20's.

[milandro]

I don't know if it is a relacquer, frankly I am of the opinion that it doesn't matter all that much . There are a number of features different from my Eastlake 1970, I would be curious to feel if this layout performs any better.
The word of mouth in Holland is that silvernecks are better sounding than full silversonics. Prices are fairly high but horns like this are not very common. Shops tend to sell them for a lot of money but everybody has an hard time to actually sell them. A typical price would be in the range of 3500 euro which is considerably more than 3000$.

[warp x]

I've seen them go for 5000 euro's here in Amsterdam..
Just to think I got mine for that amount in old dutch Guilders..

Anyway, that's a nice looking horn on ebay!

[milandro]

warp, there are several shops in Holland selling super 20's for a lot less than 5000 let alone some Marktplaats offers which cannot even reach 2500 euros Unless we talk about a very special horn in absolutely perfect state they never reach (nowadays) those prices. 2500 euros for an eastlake is plenty and 3500 for a older type should suffice. The horn market in Europe (perhaps not so in Germany) is shrinking due to a number of reasons

[Grumps]

I'm in...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/grmpyoldmn/Silversonic.jpg
Ain't gonna win no beauty contest though.

[Turnaround]

Congrads Grumps. Is that a Lamberson tooting the horn? Looks like a mean:twisted: horn. It's hard for a Silversonic to look ugly to me.

[martysax]

I'm in...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/grmpyoldmn/Silversonic.jpg
Ain't gonna win no beauty contest though.

In a dark blues bar, it will be the best looking girl!

Congrats!






(I can't wait to play it)

[Grumps]

Is that a Lamberson tooting the horn?
Actually, an RPC. I got the horn back today from an overhaul and am just getting familiar with it. Marty is right on track. This horn is for blues/bar gigs. Though my silver plated 10M was near pristine when I got it, I took this chance on a player's horn. A prior owner had some serious acidic chemistry going though and most of the original pearls were nearly gone. If his right thumb wrapped around the horn for much longer, it might have eaten through it. It took a bit of work to get it shaped up (quite literally, in some places), but I got the work done at a very reasonable price. I'd been thinking for a while about not using my 10M on the rougher bar jobs and a fairly recent go with my rarely used back-up VII had me finally sell it shortly thereafter. So the time was right to scratch that King itch. I'm gonna get used to it a bit before I do any side by side comparisons, but I knew even from blowing it in its pre-overhaul state that it had great potential.

[milandro]

Great horn congrats Grumps......perhaps one day I'll have a silver myself

[JL]

Hey, looks like a great horn Grumps, and a silversonic at that. I bet it roars with that RPC!

[Grumps]

Yeah JL, I tried it with a few different RPC's, but fell back on my favorite 125 high baffle (that's really a .134"). I really haven't had a lot of time to spend on it and was out of the house all day today (Navy over Air Force). Tomorrow I'll have some time to play it a bit more. I already know the altissimo works, that's for sure. Another thing, after reading about folks with D2 problems, I'm happy to report that mine is simply a touch sharp; or basically normal. General intonation is excellent and as far as feel goes, the only notes I've noticed I might be blowing differently are G1 and F#1. There's a good flow to it, in regard to fingering, and it has a nice transition between octaves. Overall, very happy with it so far.

[shmuelyosef]

I've gotten rid of nearly all my 'vintage' horns except my Super 20 tenor...why? Blues/bar gigs!!! Small bar with a Link, big bar with a Guardala...

[Yellowhorn]

Grumps -

Congrats and welcome aboard!

Jeff -

Your decision to keep the 20 speaks loud! I am glad I could not sell mine; otherwise I would be regretting it now.

I look forward to comparing the 20 to a Buffet Super Dynaction I have just got. (That is two tenors with the word "super" on them!)

[SilverNeck20]

Ain't gonna win no beauty contest though.

Looks like a beauty to me.....good luck with it.;)

[brasscane]

An Eastlake Silversonic tenor 470XXX in good shape (not mint but well cared for) with decent pads. What is a reasonable purchase price (in the US) from a private seller if I want to be able to turn the horn around without loss in the event I don't like it?

Thanks!

[Grumps]

I'd been watching those on Ebay for a while. Eastlake Silversonics in decent shape that still have the underslung neck octave arm can go for around 3K; the earlier the better. There's a later one with the normal neck that's been sitting for some time at a buy it now of 3.2K (or best offer).

As for mine... I asked my son if he'd noticed anything different about my playing the last couple of days. Yeah, he replied. You're louder...

[milandro]

I agree 3K is a good price (with the dollar being so low you'll get much competition from Europe) here it would reach the 3000 euro or more. In a shop even 4000.

This horn is capable of screaming but can be singing as soft as any sweet hoorn out there, I am producing convincing Getz sounds out of it (when I am doing well, I am working hard to improve.....) :)

[milandro]

Well, just bought a Otto link to try on the Super 20....initial impressions are OK but nothing spectacular.

[Grumps]

I had a good day playing the Silversonic today. I'm certainly getting used to it and feel I can now compare it to my 10M. The contrast between the two horns is intriguing. The Silversonic's keywork certainly is a bit slicker... and quite frankly, almost exposes the 10M as clunky. I get a much richer tone up top with the SS, and that includes altissimo (which is also a tad bit cleaner on the SS). The SS also runs more on the edge of overdrive, which is going to pay off on the next bar gig. Now that doesn't mean I'm dumping the 10M. The low end of the 10M has the SS beat, at least in my book, and there's just a better overall vibe to it; at least for jazz. But this has actually worked out as I'd planned. Instead of having a second horn I never use (the VII I sold), now I've got one for a particular pupose... and then some.

[Robert_Allan]

The low end of the 10M has the SS beat


That's interesting. In what way does it have it beat? More core? Louder? Thicker? I know it my be hard to describe.

I ask because I was wondering what resonators each horn has. My limited experience with S20's is the domed Selmer style resonators focus and thicken the tone, while large, non-domed resonators give more of a "blasty" type of sound, with less focus.

[Grumps]

The 10M has Noyeks and the SS has Selmer Super Action 80 type domed metal resonators. I'd say thicker would be the word of choice in my preference for the 10M's low end.

[milandro]

Have you noticed the vibrations? This horn is the first horn I ever had that actually vibrates noticeably (ok, now I gonna get all the Jokes on the vibrating horn tickling to my family jewels....) , while I play I get the vibration through my clothes...... in the beginning I didn't understand what it was.

I've asked Grumps already but I like to hear from you too, Is your Super 20 neck solid silver or plate?

[Robert_Allan]

Is your Super 20 neck solid silver or plate?


I believe you're asking me this, but since you didn't specifically address me in your post, I'm not sure.

Anyhow, I have several S20's and all have silver necks, and they are all Cleveland made horns. I don't believe King fitted brass necks with S20's until sometime after the move of the factory to Eastlake, and the silver necks continued there for quite awhile, I believe. For that matter, I've never seen an underslung brass neck. Perhaps someone out there has a brass neck and can comment.

As far as SILVER PLATING is concerned, I don't know that King ever offered such a neck as standard, or special order. I'm no expert, though.

Earlier necks from the full pearl era of S20's were sprayed with a light coating of gold colored paint, giving them the appearance that they were brass. But the paint didn't adhere well to the silver, or the paint quality was poor, and the finish easily flaked off.

I did have a very early S20 once, with a serial # of 278K (and that was very close to mint condition), and it did not have the gold lacquer sprayed on the neck. I think it was sprayed with clear lacquer, a practice that was used on horns made in the later '50's and '60's horns, and maybe into the '70's, although I have never owned a S20 later than a 394K.

[Robert_Allan]

The 10M has Noyeks and the SS has Selmer Super Action 80 type domed metal resonators. I'd say thicker would be the word of choice in my preference for the 10M's low end.


The thing I find most interesting about the sound of the S20 is that it can be so distinctive when amplified through a PA. I guess all horns can be distinctive, but when the music is loud, bordering on too loud (which seems to be the case more often than not), there's something about the way a Super 20 cuts through that I've always preferred over the sound most players get from their Selmers. It's harder to get that "bright edge" on a Selmer than it is with a King.

And talking about distinctive sounds, there is a guy in town that plays some kind of old Martin (one of the good ones), and one night I heard him playing and that horn had a very big sound. Bigger, warmer, and heftier in the very bottom and low end than my King, or anything I've ever heard, for that matter. But I thought the King was cutting through in the mids better. I was playing a 290K that night, which isn't quite as bright as my Silver Sonic.

The Martin player was using a large tip mouthpiece, and I play a 130/0 Berg.

[milandro]

Hello Robert, no, I didn't specifically address this question to you but to all those who read this thread. Nice of you to answer.

You've never seen a brass underslug neck?

I'll take a picture of mine and I will let you see it. According to some repair men (for example one I spoke to yesterday, Paul Feldmann in Amsterdam) the brass necks are brighter than their silver counterpart. I can' comment on it because I only have the brass neck.

However Silversonics have a lesser reputation among few technicians I spoke to. They are seen as truly beautiful but less resonating horns (I am not saying it it so, I am just reporting the " Vox populi" around here) than the ones with the sole Silver neck.

I have seen somewhere pictures of Super 20 horns with a neck that was a faded brass (Gold?) on silver or otherwise, that's why I wondered if they were solid or plated.

I am interested in a Solid silver single socket neckt to match my 460xxx eastlake super 20. ;) you never know, if I ask nicely someone would sell one to me!

[Yellowhorn]

Grumps -

You should feel fortunate because you have two of the finest American horns, the 20 and the 10M, EVER! The next horn you have a GAS for might as well be a 400 Top-Hat-and-Cane! That would be something, would not it?

Milandro -

It is not that the King vibrates more than other horns, but that your breath support is now better. Technically speaking, when you breath correctly (ie, from and to your stomach, as opposed to your lungs, as some people do), any horn and every note you play on it should make some vibration.

So, keep doing long tones, Milandro! That is the key to a good tone and more...!!!!

[milandro]

No, Yellowhorn a side by side test with the Mark VII which I played until yesterday, proved that vibration is not of my doing. The Selmer doesn't vibrate against my body as much as the Super 20 and that with a combination of 3 different mouthpieces (Meyer, Vandoren, Otto Link).

I am not talking of minute vibratons here but major Vrrrrrr of the horn against my body.

[Grumps]

You should feel fortunate because you have two of the finest American horns, the 20 and the 10M, EVER! The next horn you have a GAS for might as well be a 400 Top-Hat-and-Cane! That would be something, would not it?
I've had an early Aristocrat tenor and a Big B, but flipped them both before I could get them fixed up. I do crave a Top Hat & Cane, and if it were a tenor, yeah, I'd have one serious tenor collection... but tell you the truth, I'd rather have an alto in that model.

[Swampcabbage]

A SS would go a long way in toppoing off my collection of tenors (Mark VI, 30M, and a Martin Committee). Once I get and SBA and an SS I think I'll be all set. ;)

[Swingtone]

The SS also runs more on the edge of overdrive, which is going to pay off on the next bar gig.

A Silver-Sonic at a bar gig? Sounds cool, I just hope they have chicken wire! In other words, keep an eye on that shiny horn. ;)

[Grumps]

A Silver-Sonic at a bar gig? Sounds cool, I just hope they have chicken wire! In other words, keep an eye on that shiny horn. ;)
The picture posted (#294) doesn't really do the horn justice. It is seriously ugly and has seen its share of work. It doesn't look like a nice horn. In fact, it comes off as more of a beater. With the lacquer peeling off the bell, you can hardly tell it's silver. Now I'd been lucky playing bar gigs with my pristine, silver plated '40 10M, but figured I'd go for another option before my luck ran out. Not that I'm planning on it taking a spill. I almost feel the more you worry about things like that, the more likely it is to happen. Still, I'd feel much better about having another dent banged out of the SS than a first dent to my 10M.

Milandro, I know what you mean by that buzz and hum (though I find VI's usually have it as well, but my VII never did unless I added it). Love it myself.

[milandro]

yeah, this baby PURRS like a lion!

[Yellowhorn]

Milandro -

Maybe your Mk VII does not vibrate as much as the King because it is low on batteries? ;-)

Just kidding, mate! But, seriously, my Conn-Selmer tenor vibrates when I blow it - just like any other horn!

Ok, if we were not talking horns here, it would sound graphic, wouldn't it?

Enjoy blowing your King!

[milandro]

Yes Yellowhorn, all horns vibrate, but some do that a little more noticeably as others....:), perhaps the horn player does " play" a role in this;)

[BarneyBFlat]

Hi y'all...I'm the proud owner of a 1956 silver-neck Super 20 alto. The horn was given to me new by my grandmother in 1957...she paid (I think) $350 for it. I'm a semi-pro and am playing that very alto daily. I use an old bargain-bin Meyer, Louie Lig, and Rico Royal 2.5's.

Every time I talk about getting a new horn, my friends and local sax tech tell me I'm nuts. It has some small tuning issues, but I love the lightnes of its sound...I've never been able to duplicate the tone on other horns.

I also play a 1938 Matin Handcraft tenor, Cannonball arc bell soprano and Cannonball bari...but the King's my favorite.

Blessings, BarneyBFlat

[milandro]

as a few people know already, I am looking for the holy grail.....a silver neck (just the neck) single socket super 20 tenor......have you got any one to spare? :) I would consider (for the right price ;)) a neck which has (had?) a Varitone (Octavoice) mike installed......of course I know of the Gloger alternative....

[warp x]

Sounds like you're looking for my neck...
I've never seen just the neck or sale, good luck with that!

[milandro]

well, if you want I'll give you my brass neck and a (small;) ) pile of euros to go with it !
Necks are for sale but most are in the possession of repair-men who will wait for the occasional neckless tenor to come by and acquire it very cheap (it has no neck, it is worthless, I am just buying for parts, where are you going to find another neck!) and make a good return on just coupling the two. Nothing wrong with that! Business is Business!
On the other hand one might have the neck laying somewhere and never be able to match it to a saxophone!

[milandro]

Hey Warp X! Great Music on your site! Chapeau! I can see why you won't sell me your neck! ;)

[warp x]

Thanks for the compliment!
I'll keep an eye out for you.

[Yellowhorn]

Give it up, Milandro!

If you really want that silver neck with the Varidumb hole in it, I can hook you up!

[milandro]

I certainly would be interested in some pictures and a price! :) it they both look nice....:) who knows!

[sopranosaxman]

Well I am now in the club. I just bought my super 20 alto a week ago and haven't been able to put it down. It's from 1946 it has full pearls and the sterling neck. My Mk.VI has been sitting in the case ever since I got this horn.

[milandro]

Yeah! Those Full pearls silver necks are really impressive ! Congratulations!

[Yellowhorn]

My Mk.VI has been sitting in the case ever since I got this horn.

Somebody sends this to the Selmer section! ;-)

[milandro]

still looking for that illusive silver neck single socket for my poor Tenor Eastlake Super 20......I know there are two necks whcih could be available among memebers here, one with a octavoice (and with an horn attached) and one without (and without a horn attached)......I am prepared to buy one for the right price (if it costs more than a Gloger doen't make sense, does it?).....maybe someone will help me!

[milandro]

So I decided to take the plunge and the damage!

I gave up the search of an original King silver neck for my single socket tenor Super 20. I had found one with a hole in it and not in great shape and another " new" which is resting in an Australian closet hoping to find, one day, a neckless King to be married to.

I am going to Gronigen to see Karsten Gloger today and place an order for a Silver Gloger neck. Not cheap, but as far as the aftermarket go, probably among the best in the world.

Wish me luck!

[Grumps]

I am going to Gronigen to see Karsten Gloger today and place an order for a Silver Gloger neck. Not cheap, but as far as the aftermarket go, probably among the best in the world.
Since you're going to see him in person, perhaps he has a model or template neck for a Super 20 you can try out to see if it's going to be worth it. If so, make sure you bring a digital tuner with you.

[Sjax20]

Milandro - I'm curious what you will think of this neck! I also have a S20 tenor with a brass neck, and I have been thinking about trying a silver Gloger neck. If the difference is big, I think I would be tempted to buy one too.

I already have a silver Gloger neck for my S20 bari, which plays & sounds very well.

[Budget Explosion]

I've owned King Super 20 altos with the silver neck and with the brass underslung neck. The brass necked super 20 sounded just like the silver necked (single socket) horn. Maybe someone could silver plate your brassneck?

[milandro]

Since you're going to see him in person, perhaps he has a model or template neck for a Super 20 you can try out to see if it's going to be worth it. .......

NOPE! Not one Super 20-Gloger neck to try out in sight. Lots of unfinished necks though, in this incredibly small atelier..... a few horns too (he still does some repairs but wants to give up the most common jobs and do restaurations and interesting stuff alone), but I decided that it was worth it anyway! The Super 20 neck of my horn wasn't seating well in his socket and you could giggle it a little if the neck screw wasn't tightened......and I thought I deserved splashing a little!;)

Milandro - I'm curious what you will think of this neck! I also have a S20 tenor with a brass neck, and I have been thinking about trying a silver Gloger neck. If the difference is big, I think I would be tempted to buy one too. ....

I will report in two months.......it takes a two months wait!:shock:

I did think of having my neck silverplated but the issues would have still been there and there would have been no sound improvement too.
I turned down any other possibilities (Yanagisawa or Cannonball necks)because they were expensive too and required adaptations. Better have a custom made neck .

[JL]

Milandro - I'm curious what you will think of this neck! I also have a S20 tenor with a brass neck, and I have been thinking about trying a silver Gloger neck. If the difference is big, I think I would be tempted to buy one too.

I already have a silver Gloger neck for my S20 bari, which plays & sounds very well.

I wonder if the Gloger neck makes a bigger difference on a Selmer than on an American horn like the King? I went to all the effort of ordering one for my Buescher Aristocrat tenor a couple of years ago and when I finally got it and made the comparison with the original neck I could detect no difference whatsoever in sound or response. The original neck also was slightly easier to keep in tune. So I sent the Gloger back, and was very happy with the service and the free trial provided by Music Medic. It cost me the shipping but certainly increased my confidence that the original Buescher neck was as good as it gets. Of course others might have a very different experience to mine.

I think maybe if you need a new neck because the original is lost or destroyed it would be worth looking into these after market necks. Otherwise it might not be worth the money.

[milandro]

......to be really honest, the first time I spoke to Karsten Gloger, he told me that if the neck has no problem it is probably not worth buying one... but he certainly was positive about influences on Intonation (at that time we spoke about an old Conn Baritone) and about sound influence (by the way he also mentioned how it is important to have someone else in a space like a place where we would play for an audience to evaluate the sound...). If my Super 20 neck had no issues of any type, I probably wouln't have considered this option which I am pursuing now.

[bobsax]

I see so few of these it's hard to get an idea of there value.
A week or so ago somebody was asking $10,000 obo for a Super-20 tenor (ss*bell and neck no pearl)http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180171640972&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=008

This one is active for a similar horn at $3,050 as of 11/3 10:30PST.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190168353420&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=009

[Swingtone]

And your question is...? If you're trying to say that ebay is overpriced, well, yes, it is and will continue to be so in the future. The days of bargains on ebay ended about 3 years ago, which is approximately when Europeans figured out they could buy horns listed on American ebay for a song. When you factor in the dollar's record low value, it's a buyer's heaven for those in the Old World and a hell for the average American (but a heaven perhaps if you're selling). But I guess since you're Canadian maybe it's not a bad deal buying U.S. horns right now, either, considering that your dollar is now at par with ours for the first time.

No, ebay has been fully exploited and current prices are very similar to the retail prices charged by Sarge, junkdude, et al just a couple years ago. About the only bargains you're likely to see are those uninformed antique dealers who buy a horn at an estate sale and then put it up at an undermarket B-I-N. But minutes count on these, and you've got to search practically every day throughout the day (or just be darn lucky) to see it in time to click first.

The other extreme are the antique dealers who apparently have become overnight "experts" by scanning the completed auctions and inductively reason that their horns are worth more than they are. This is probably what happened with the 10K late period SS. For example, if they see a 1954 SS tenor with gold inlay sold for $8K, then surely they can start the bidding for their 1975 SS with gold inlay at 10K, right? You will notice, though, that the above horn was relisted after no bids at 3 or 4K. They are not aware of all the nuances of (and varied demand for) the variations of all the different models of saxes. You see this with other horns, too, like Post-Buyout Buescher 400's priced like early TH&C's.

In either case, you can invariably spot one of these novice antique dealers from the tell-tale photos with the mouthpiece on upside down. In fact, I once thought of setting up an account in which I would only sell valuable horns with low opening bids and the mouthpieces on upside down just to lure bidders in with the idea that "I didn't know what I had." Indeed, it seems like these kinds of auctions do go off the charts pricewise and descend (or ascend I suppose if you're the seller feeding off the rush of making a few thousand in a few seconds) into bidding wars in the closing seconds. Actually I don't doubt that some have intentionally sold horns in this manner (kind of the "Columbo" method of selling--act dumber than everyone else).

[bobsax]

And your question is...? If you're trying to say that ebay is overpriced, well, yes, it is and will continue to be so in the future.

..I wasn't really asking a question or trying to say anything. I just thought you Super 20 guys might be interested in the eBay prices of your horns. I don't see very many for sale.

It's interesting what Swingtone says about EU guys buying up everything. a few years ago it was Japan that got the rap.

[jazax]

Hello,

I have a VERY USED 290xxx tenor (a 1940s instrument?) with sterling silver neck. I purchased this horn used in the mid 1970s from a person that purchased it used in the Chicago area.

Metal and pearls are worn from MANY hours of playing...it also has a patch next to the thumb hook.

It has a unique engraving on the bell that is faint from wear..."Lucky." I often wonder about the history of this instrument. Anyone have any thoughts about who may have been the orginal owner?

Any tips on how to decide a $ value on a high-mileage instrument?

[milandro]

well, it is very difficult to say without any pictures.

However , even with pictures, it is difficult to establish the value of such things as saxophones sold on the international market because prices tend to differ among the many countries, in fact E-bay reflects the international market and it is the best indicator of a price at a given moment in time.

The price of anything vintage or secondhand is established the moment something sells at a certain price, the value is and relative factor and doesn't exist on its own but the price of the item is of course a function of the working of supply and demand on the international market.

If you mix different markets with different currencies and economies, the way it happens on E-bay, a certain Item might appear overpriced ( do you mean that people will willingly overpay? If they pay a certain sum then a nd there that is the price!) in the U.S.A. (where supply is larger than in Japan) but perfectly in line with the local prices in Japan (for example) ultimately this will reflect with the price everywhere in the world of global communications. If an Item is overpriced on e-bay goes unsold, if it sells there for a high price, that is the price at that moment in time on the international market.



In Holland a very good Silversonic, full pearls can cost, in a shop (with all the trimmings and care), as much as 10.000 Euro or as little as 2.500, if very bad looking but well playable state. Much less sold among private sellers.

Personally I feel that a very worn out Super 20 as you describe it shouldn't cost more than 1500/2000 euro , if at all.

[mdevf]

I've loved my alto king super 20! Not playing anymore. Thinking of sellling. Serial #278xxx in excellent condition, lacquer still beautiful, etching on bell and notes geourgeous. Best of all it plays awesome. . . . still one of the best sounding altos I've heard.

[chilliad]

Hi,
Does any one know an affordable case/gig bag fits East Lake SS tenor where the neck doesn't need to be stuffed in the bell?

Also wondering is if anyone has experience with A/B Jody' DV and DV NY. . . . .

Cheers!;)


******* oops ******* will post this is another thread

[milandro]

I use a Protec contoured ( I am not sure that it is the " large bell" model though.....) for my Super 20 and it fits just fine, I just put a litlle foam rubber at the bottom of the space obviously meant for selmer-like necks and it is, yes, a snuggle fit but a good fit nonetheless. The previous owner thought he couldn't use it this way and had the neck in a neck pouch. I see no reason to do that.

[Grumps]

I also have my Silversonic in a Protec, but I keep the neck in the bell. I don't want to do that, but I'd have to modify the neck slot so it wouldn't keep the octave open and bouncing around. Might just put my 10M in the Protec and the Silversonic in my Hiscox.

[milandro]

Grumps, what you need to do is just put something soft in the neck slot of the protec and everything is fine , the octave mechanism is not open and the upper curve is not protruding too much.

[Grumps]

I'll take another look at it, but mine is one of the latest models, and I know from my alto cases that I prefer a previous interior style.

[milandro]

I have a Protec contour alto case too and my Martin has a even snuggler fit (the horn this time) in there but they are still very good cases, especially if you have to use it on a bike , as I sometimes do.

[chilliad]

Thanks guys.

[Grumps]

...I just put a litlle foam rubber at the bottom of the space obviously meant for selmer-like necks and it is, yes, a snuggle fit but a good fit nonetheless.
Thanks for that simple solution milandro. The contoured Protec works for me too now for my Silversonic with a bit of foam under the neck tenon. Now I can keep a Saxxy stand in the bell. Much appreciated.

[milandro]

You are most welcome, enjoy your protec case! ;) :)

[Yellowhorn]

Chilliad -

Another option is to get a P Mauriat contoured gig (and home) case. It is the only one I have tried so far that fits my 20 tenor. And it fits other tenors, too.

Good luck!

[Al Ross]

Hey guys- can I edge in here?- I just committed to the Super 20 tenor that Les has on his site :D

http://www.saxoasis.com/kingsuper20376xx.html

I will get it in Santa's bag (Santa better not be late...)

I need some suggestions on mouthpieces. I have a NY Link 8* that I currently use with my Ref 54 tenor and also a Larsen 120/1. Would they do the job (funk and blues)?

Thanks
Al

[milandro]

Looks great and the price is great too! Welcome aboard! Enjoy the ride! :)

The Link didn't have it for me and in the end I chose my Vandoren Java T55 for my tenor.

[Al Ross]

Thanks for the tip Milandro.
What kind of sound and music genre are you going after with your T55?
Al

[mlscnr]

Hey guys- can I edge in here?- I just committed to the Super 20 tenor that Les has on his site :D

http://www.saxoasis.com/kingsuper20376xx.html

I will get it in Santa's bag (Santa better not be late...)

I need some suggestions on mouthpieces. I have a NY Link 8* that I currently use with my Ref 54 tenor and also a Larsen 120/1. Would they do the job (funk and blues)?

Thanks
Al
The Super 20/Berg combo is considered by some to be THE setup for R&B sax. I played a Link on mine for year. You should be happy with either, and especially happy with both! Welcome aboard.

[milandro]

Thanks for the tip Milandro.
What kind of sound and music genre are you going after with your T55?
Al

they say the super 20 is the ideal R&B horn, and it probably is. They also say that the Vandoren Java t 55 is for Jazz and fusion (whatever that, both terms in this context, means....;) I still rememer that someone here defined a classical mouthpiece the mouthpiece you play classical music with..... ). I try to play Blues and Jazz on it. The mouthpiece helps me with the rougher edges of the horn, at least I think so.

[Grumps]

Had a great experience over the weekend at the Sax Symposium at GMU. The vendor with the restored Zephyr that gave me that itch for a King tenor exactly a year ago was there again with the horn (it belongs to one of the store's employees). Funny, but it just didn't seem to play as well for me... but of course that could have been because I had my Silversonic right on hand to compare it with. Man, I left that show feeling great. Not only did no other tenor seriously interest me, but I now know for certain that the King tenor I picked up was way better than the horn that inspired my quest for it in the first place. Yup, left there feeling pretty good. Pretty, pretty, pretty... pretty good.

[mlscnr]

A good Super 20 will do that to you. :king:

[milandro]

I must say I have the same. Last week I forgot my saxophne's neck at home and I went to play with this play-by-ear group with which I play on Thursdays ( mostly saxophones and brass, but it has happened to grown to a big band size at times). So when I got there I noticed that I had no saxophone's neck....so I wanted to go home and my teacher (and good Friend!) offered to lend me his Mark VI since he mostly plays piano during practice (our pianist does attend but not very often).
So for the rest of the night I played this Mark VI (giving it back for the occasional solo or demonstration).

Was I impressed? Yes I was. Would I exchange it with my Super 20? No I wouldn't.

My teacher is great on his Mark VI horn, he plays in a way that I probably will never reach and has the most incredible subtones I've ever heard in a modern player....but did I like the same horn? A lot less than mine. I have some real moments of pleasure while I play my super 20. Regardless of my less than perfect (undestatement, it even worse than that...) playing .

[junior1]

This is my first time posting in the forum. I am a proud new owner of a Tenor Super 20 Silver Sonic 385xxx. Man I love how this horn plays. I just got it today at a Pawn shop for $400. When I called the Pawn shop and the guy working told me he had a Super 20 Silver bell and neck I ran straight there with cash. He told me the horn came from an estate sale. I limited my conversation with him because I was worried he might have found out the true value of this horn. He knew he made my day, year and that he was selling it for less than what it was worth. The horn came in it's orginal King, looks like Alligator skin case. The case really smells and it's really torn up, that won't stop me from not keeping it and adding to the mystique of history when it's passed down to next person.

I know I am considered a very lucky guy when it comes to finding awesome vintage horns for a good deal. My first horn back when I first started playing in 91 was a balanced action alto. I had no clue what I had I just remember my teacher telling me that Selmers were good. So I bought it for $100. I called him before my lesson and told him I found a Selmer. He automatically assumed it was a Vito. His jaw dropped when he saw it. I also found another Balanced Action alto (1947) 8 years later for around $200. I never could get myself to buy a new horn or buy any horns for what they were worth just because of how lucky I have been. I guess that is why I still have the second Balanced Action and have never parted with it. From all my searches I never could find the Mark VI bargain. That is why I am so damn happy finding this Sup 20. I will never part with these horns. Something about their history and the way they play. I'm older now and possibly could afford a brand new Selmer. I was playing around with the idea of purchasing a Ref 36 flamingo tenor. Not anymore. I am just loving my King and will play that for the rest of my life.

I haven't played Tenor in over 10 years. I almost passed out today playing. I have an old custom Guardala tenor mouthpiece. (Like this super 20 needs any more screaming) Any other mouth pieces out there that might be good fit for the super 20? I like Dexter and like Lenny Pickett screaming sound. So I am open to try a bunch out and actually purchase more than one MP.

Also does anyone know what year this horn would be 385xxx, I know it's between 1960-1965, but not sure what year?

It's great to be part of the Kind Sup20 family:)

[JL]

I am a proud new owner of a Tenor Super 20 Silver Sonic 385xxx. Man I love how this horn plays. I just got it today at a Pawn shop for $400.

The horn came in it's orginal King, looks like Alligator skin case. The case really smells and it's really torn up, that won't stop me from not keeping it and adding to the mystique of history when it's passed down to next person.

Welcome to SOTW!

All right, I know what everyone who reads this is thinking: Man, why can't something like this happen to me? You really scored. You might want to take the horn in to a tech and have it looked over. If the case smells that bad, probably the horn was put away damp and the pads may not be very good. If you do get the horn overhauled or re-padded, I'd suggest also getting a new case. Keep the old one if you want, but store the horn in a new case.

Enjoy that horn.

[junior1]

Thanks JL, I have a friend who is a tech who will be looking at the horn pretty soon. He also has a Super20 Silver Son Tenor, But he paid 2K for his. Ha Ha.

[JL]

Thanks JL, I have a friend who is a tech who will be looking at the horn pretty soon. He also has a Super20 Silver Son Tenor, But he paid 2K for his. Ha Ha.

A couple of years ago I knew a guy who wanted 3k for his silversonic tenor and it was a great horn. I still kind of wish I'd bought it, but I didn't want to pay that much (it needed work, too). Couldn't talk him down. I tried hard.

[mlscnr]

Junior1 - where do you live? I am amazed at your finds. :shock:

[JL]

Junior1 - where do you live? I am amazed at your finds. :shock:

Yeah, where's that pawn shop? I wouldn't blame you for not answering!

[junior1]

LOL. I actually got the Balanced Actions outside of Seattle. This was before the Internet and Ebay days. After that the Pawn guys got tech savvy and realized the value of these horns. I became a fanatic and looked all over. From all that time searching I could have spent my energy to just save money and buy the horns for market value. That was my down fall. I got lucky early on when I first started playing and never could buy a Mark VI for full value. That is why I probally I never got one for the last 20 years. Maybe before I die I will be so lucky to find that Mark VI in a small pawn shop in nowhereville.

I just liked the chase of finding these gems. It takes some effort but when you find one it's the biggest high.

Hopefully the pawn guys won't figure out the value of a Super 20 like they caught on with the Mark VI.

BTW I found my Super 20 outside a small town in Michigan. That's all I am giving you guys. LOL. Good luck. I might run into you. Better have cash. HA Ha

Word of advice. If you do find one get down there right away and buy it. Don't wait till the next day. I had a chance to purchase a Mark VII Tenor for about $700 in Oakland, CA. I waited the next day to buy it. Guess what? It was gone.

[ajovanov]

I just purchased 1965 King Super 20 with Sterling Silver neck, from http://www.worldwidesax.com.

now waiting for Sarge to complete his setup (he promised sometime in April).
I hope the horn comes out right.

regards,
Alex

[Grumps]

I have an old custom Guardala tenor mouthpiece. (Like this super 20 needs any more screaming) Any other mouth pieces out there that might be good fit for the super 20?
You know those handmade Guardalas can go for over a grand on Ebay, don't you? Anyhow, I prefer an RPC high baffled piece for mine.

[junior1]

You know those handmade Guardalas can go for over a grand on Ebay, don't you? Anyhow, I prefer an RPC high baffled piece for mine.

When I started playing Tenor years ago my teacher had it hand made from Dave Guardala, I can't remember what he called it? I think he mentioned something like it was a Brecker model. He sold it to me back than for about $200. I read Phil Barones post on Tones and Otto links. I have a !0* STM that I never really got use to. But after reading Phil's tone exercises I'm starting to like the Otto link. I went back to the Guardala just to see what it felt like again. It started chirping like crazy. Definitely can get the high altisimo on the Guardala. The Otto Link definitely mellowed out the Super 20 and it really felt like a Jazz horn instead of Rock and Roll and R&B.

I saw the prices for these hand made Guardala's. That is absolutely crazy! Knowing how an actual hand made Guardala sounds on my tenor I am more apt to try an AMMA or a Barone MP.

[-88-]

. . .

I saw the prices for these hand made Guardala's. That is absolutely crazy! Knowing how an actual hand made Guardala sounds on my tenor I am more apt to try an AMMA or a Barone MP.

I have been trying out an Amma 6*. There's good and bad, mostly good. The Amma plays with an easy fluidness that is disarming. The low end of the horn just walks around the room like an easy old dog. Zero effort, quick speaking right up through the central register of the horn. Compared with my Otto Links the Amma is an astonishing accomplishment, really.

It's the altissimo end of the horn that, for me at least, is where the bad news is, and has taken an odyssey adventure through reeds, embouchure adjustments, and attempted communication with Theo. The adventure continues, but the Amma is a most interesting piece.

[junior1]

I have been trying out an Amma 6*. There's good and bad, mostly good. The Amma plays with an easy fluidness that is disarming. The low end of the horn just walks around the room like an easy old dog. Zero effort, quick speaking right up through the central register of the horn. Compared with my Otto Links the Amma is an astonishing accomplishment, really.

It's the altissimo end of the horn that, for me at least, is where the bad news is, and has taken an odyssey adventure through reeds, embouchure adjustments, and attempted communication with Theo. The adventure continues, but the Amma is a most interesting piece.

Thanks for the feedback! What type of Sup 20 do you have? I am trying out my STM 10*. It takes some air and effort but I really like my sound with the Silver Sonic. I played around with the altissimo and I can't make it happen at this point. the mid and low ends sound great. I was hoping the Amma would make it easier on altissimo but it sounds like it's not happening.

Hey, do you think Theo would trade me with one of his Amma's for a custom Guardala? He would be profiting. $2,500 (DG) - $650 (Amma) = $1,850 profit. LOL.

[-88-]

Thanks for the feedback! What type of Sup 20 do you have? I am trying out my STM 10*. It takes some air and effort but I really like my sound with the Silver Sonic. I played around with the altissimo and I can't make it happen at this point. the mid and low ends sound great. I was hoping the Amma would make it easier on altissimo but it sounds like it's not happening.

Hey, do you think Theo would trade me with one of his Amma's for a custom Guardala? He would be profiting. $2,500 (DG) - $650 (Amma) = $1,850 profit. LOL.

Jr: The King Super 20 Silversonic I have is an alto. Regarding the Amma, I am playing it on an SBA tenor. I am now getting altissimo with it, I needed to change by embouchure for this piece. Also the high E has a narrow window, meaning, correct embouchure=great sound, slightly off embouchure=flubbed splat. The odd thing is that of all my pieces, this is the only one that is ultra sensative with the high E. My Morgans, my RPC's, my Link's and many others are no problem. I suspect that narrow rails may have something to do with the hyper-sensitivity on that note. F above it, and F#, and G above that are all fine. Wierd. The rest of the horn plays out sooooo nice. Maybe my piece just has an imperfection, but I haven't been successful in getting clarity on it yet. Don't know what that means.

If you are considering an Amma, I'd recommend a talk with Theo first. Tell him what you want: altissimo, but without giving up the rest of the horn. Theo said he's coming out with a new model this spring, so maybe he is addressing that issue. They seem awfully busy and are very slow on email, but give it a try.

Having said all that, out of 20 pieces, most of them high end including a beautiful vintage Dukoff Hollywood 7*, my favorite pieces remain:

- Morgan Jazz 9L
- RPC 115 B-chamber
- Amma 6*

and not necessarily in that order, but the Morgan Jazz 9L is some bit of heaven -- that's for sure. Great bottom end, very consistent mid-range, and sparkling altissimo, and it delivers all of that with great power or sub-tone as called on. These pieces are available from junkdude.com for a ''mere'' $255.

[milandro]

if anybody out there is looking for a neck for your neckless Tenor Super 20 here there is one
http://cgi.ebay.ca/King-Super-20-Tenor-Saxophone-NECK_W0QQitemZ250219173716QQihZ015QQcategoryZ16234 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It has a varitone but it is better than nothing if you need one. I am not endorsing it, just reporting!

[jtodd]

Hi,

I joined the club just recently with tenor SN 439xxx, brass neck, and very Martin-like warm sound, but with more clarity. Great intonation!

I have a question for you guys. Are all of your neck tenons straight? (I know that sounds obscene, but I'm talking literally. Sometimes a cigar IS really a cigar...) The neck checks out perfectly round, but on one side, visually it looks like it is not perfectly straight. Horn plays fine; I just wonder, does this affect its potential?

Cheers, JT

[Grumps]

When the neck connection on my similar model was out of round/leaked, the problem notes were B1 and F#1. Fixing it corrected the problematic notes and made the entire horn come more alive.

[jtodd]

Got the neck tenon straightened out, and the horn does play better.

BTW, if you're looking for a tech in the DFW area, Charles King at Ellis County Music Center is da bomb!

JT

[kensax]

I'm joining this club. I have a 370' series Super 20 Clevland Tenor w/ silver double socket neck that I will never, ever replace. The photo's show the band opening up for Blue Oyster Cult a couple years back. If I'm not mistaken, I'm playing "What Does it Take" on the bass bins.

http://www.thelegendarydukes.com/gallery/high_falls_8-11-05/100_3399.jpg
Since that date I have had the horn overhauled for the second time. The first time it was a basket case rescued from about 20 years of Junior high duty following a career in the Navy. (True) I had the remaining laquer revoved. No buffing. It's now got black roo pads and noyek resonators. The thing whispers, screams and everything else inbetween. LIke someonelse said before, it sounds great through a PA and records well. But, you guys know all that.

Here's the horn and my ugly mug a bit closer:

http://www.thelegendarydukes.com/gallery/high_falls_8-11-05/100_3404.jpg

[Ike Webkins]

i'm new to the club : I just ordered a super 20 bari : 388 3xx

[warp x]

I'm leaving the club. My Super 20 is now for sale.

[martysax]

I'm leaving the club. My Super 20 is now for sale.

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

You'll regret it.

[warp x]

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

You'll regret it.

No I won't. It's time for something else. I've been playing this horn for almost 17 years.

[martysax]

No I won't. It's time for something else. I've been playing this horn for almost 17 years.

I've been playing mine for over 30 years. I'll part with my wife first.

[warp x]

I've been playing mine for over 30 years. I'll part with my wife first.

:laughing::laughing:

[junior1]

I've been playing mine for over 30 years. I'll part with my wife first.

My wife got jealous when I told her not to touch her(Silver Sonic).

[warp x]

I'm out officially. My Super 20 is sold.
Bye bye! :)

[-88-]

Okay Warp X: You're gone. But to what? You haven't said yet?

[Mactenor]

I am back in the club. Just got a 1949 Super 20 Serial #299xxx and this horn is a monster, it's like turning Godzilla loose on some unsuspecting city.

[warp x]

Okay Warp X: You're gone. But to what? You haven't said yet?

LeBlanc System. Monster horn.

[bobsax]

LeBlanc System. Monster horn.

LeBlanc System. Monster horn?
I'm not familiar with this model :)

[milandro]

careful, these monsters bite when you play.....

[brasscane]

LeBlanc System. Monster horn?
I'm not familiar with this model :)
Warp is a monster saxophonist. Therefore his horn is a monster horn, Super 20, LeBlanc System, X...pure logic...Rational(e), in fact.

[warp x]

Warp is a monster saxophonist. Therefore his horn is a monster horn, Super 20, LeBlanc System, X...pure logic...Rational(e), in fact.

Thanks!

@Bobsax: I play a Leblanc tenor. The model is called 'System'. It has an alternative tonehole and key setup, allowing for different fingerings for most notes. For example I can play Bb2 by pressing LH index and ringfinger, and Ab1 by fingering A plus RH middlefinger etc etc.

[Classax]

Do you guys mind if I join the club, I love the Silversoninc Sound and play a silversonic tenor- It just happens to be a....... KEILWERTH. SX90R, now if I could just learn to play it!:borg: