Grassi baritones

[EsbSpecial]

Wow...it's been too long since last I came around here...

Anyways, I have recently discovered an old I.M. Grassi bari and am trying to figure out if it is worth fixing or not. I should have photos later (moved and "mispacked" the camera) but I'd figure I'd ask now. Hell...I don't even know what model the thing is. Until a few days ago, I had never heard of Ida Maria Grassi, Italy, before.

Serial number in the 1800s, which makes it a mid to late 60s horn according to the list found here. She does need some work; the neck octave key is snapped in half, so something will have to be stuck there as a functional substitution. The horn plays - poorly as of now. The body is straight and I can't quite confirm that all of the toneholes are in the round. Very few dents, almost no lacquer.

I got it for a literal song. I am justifying the potential repair as "if I can get a good working bari just to honk around with in a band or two for under a grand I'll be happy."

would you be willing to toss a grand at an old Grassi? Are they really worth it or is it basically a cheap Italian-Tiawan Selmer knockoff that isn't worth hanging on your wall as a lamp?

[NissanMarkVII]

Interesting connundrum. My opinion: ANY Bari that will hold regulation, and play in tune, is worth at least $1000 (even if the market won't bear it in resale). That said, I have never held or played a Grassi, so I cannot say how well in tune they are, or the quality of their construction.

[milandro]

Old Grassi saxophones are good to very good. I have owned a Low Bb baritone with the green rollers and green G#. They are nice and somehow unusual compared to most baritone which follow in the footsteps of the Selmer. This doesn't.
Grassi is a long neck baritone, very different from the Selmer plethora , although yours, probably, features a bell to body brace reminiscent of a Selmer (I thought so too when I first bought it).
They are good horns. I sold mine ( overhauled one year before) for 1000€ but it took very long and I was, probably, very fortunate to do so.
They are closely related to the Rampone baritones. Also Orsi has had a long neck baritone.
If there is a lot to invest in the fixing of this horn you might just be able to recuperate the money, should you ever sell it. It is possible to acquire them for not so much money and in decent state, if you are patient.

[tictactux]

ACK.

And don't forget - you're playing a bit of history here, like a vintage car (think of a '57 Chevy Bel Air) which has its drawbacks (clunky gear, sometimes) but definitive sex appeal (confident player dares to walk off beaten paths).

Wrap all the toneholes with saran, and start playing bottom-up (note-wise, not yoga-wise) and have a friend confirm sound and intonation. Remove saran from the lowermost tonehole, repeat. (operate the keys as usual, the saran just helps sealing)
If you're happy with sound and intonation, go ahead, fix that honker.

(I have a Martin Busine which is a Grassi Professional stencil, and it sure is a fine horn with a great (read that as "voluminous") sound. The ergos require some getting used-to, but so did the YAS-23 I recently had in hands)

[EsbSpecial]

I am a vintage player; mostly conns. I have a 6m, 10m and C. I really like Martins (have a C and tenor) and have a soft spot for Kings (my zephyr alto is just fun). I have never played a vintage Euro horn.

Npt sure what you mean, Milandro. Is this a Selmer style copy or not? YOur syntax confuses my simple and lightly intoxicated intellect.

[milandro]

No, it is not a Selmer style copy, although one might be led to be thinking so from the bell to body brace. Everything else is very different, both the mechanics and the neck (with its octave key on the neck.....unlike Selmers).

[clarnibass]

Old Grassi saxophones are good to very good.
Do you mean baritones only or all of them? My experience with altos and tenors is very different from this but I've never saw a Grassi baritone.

[milandro]

well having owned 2 altos and one baritone and being for a while an advocate of Grassi on this forum I think I refer to all of them.

My wonderful model has to be in the " very good " class, and I think that their '70 to the end production was indeed very good when it came to the professional and professional 2000 series.

I also had a so called" Jade Rollers" which I acquired for little money and that was playing nicely (good) but there were several mechanical flaws.

the Baritones, generally belong to this category although they did improve them towards the end (both Bb and with a low A).

The early ones suffer of relatively poor ergonomics and , as many baritones do, intonation quirks (as far as I can judge !)

The late ones were much improved in the mechanics and tonehole placement if not in the design of neck and tube.

look at my wonderful, click several times to enlarge fully

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[URL=http://img200.imageshack.us/i/grassirightside.jpg/] (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/grassileftside.jpg/)

[EsbSpecial]

I expect intonation issues; it is a bari, it is older, it is kinda of an off brand. Mostly, I am just becoming excited that I may be able to get a relatively good horn for under a grand. that is, providing, that it is a good horn after all. Hell, my only comparisons are fond memories from HS and college when I last even held a bari. I have fond memories of wrangling a beat-to-hell YBS-32 named Leper (due to pieces falling off constantly) and making it sing.

I'm not a professional player, nor do I make any money whatsoever with my horns. I just really enjoy playing and subsequently collecting. I have talked briefly to my horn guy (a local legend who has ressurected a neglected 10m and a tragically gravity inclined 5 digit mkVI for me in the last year) and he seems pretty enthusiastic about getting this old Grassi to function at "enthusiast" capacity while keeping the total investment around $1000usd.

Still looking for the camera. My wife has named the horn "Bella" only because it is really, really ugly to her.

[milandro]

well mine had still quite a bit of lacquer in most places but it was bare brass in some others, if the lacquer is almost gone you could have it completely buffed or chemically removed and then waxed.
It is probably a good horn and requires rather big hands to play.

[EsbSpecial]

I have put a little bit of work into her over the last week and have discovered some interesting things;

-there really is a fair amount of lacquer on her after all. I took her apart and cleaned the hell out of her...what I thought was bare brass was really, really, really gross case guk that collected on her.

-the upper stack and loop are in really good shape. It is mostly bare brass about half way up the stack, but it cleaned up really nicely. The body appears to be straight, with little sign of trauma.

-pads = complete junk. Springs = complete junk. Damn.

-the low D# key guard is relatively undamaged, except for the fact that it has fallen off. The low C key, however, is literally twisted...will need replacement.

-the bow is in not bad shape. Just a few pings and dings, but nothing that would show that the horn was a school girl.

-the neck octave key needs to be completely remade. I don't have the space or the tools to do it myself...could be a real pain unless I can find a loose neck and either use it or just the key (not likely as Grassi baritones are not common in the least up here).

-She is a jade roller model, but with half of them either having been replaced or just not jade.

Should get photos soon. I pinned down the octave key and what sound I can get out isn't bad. Doesn't have the boom of a Buescher, the depth of a Martin or the song of a 12m, but plenty of guts and what seems to be indications of a sweet tone and good intonation.

[EsbSpecial]

Just got off the phone with my horn guy.

It's a no go. He found enough wrong with the horn mechanically to make it uneconomical to repair. Essentially, what he told me, was that he could fix it, but it would cost the same as a Big B.

Dammit!

On the bright side, looks like my garage has a new decoration.

[milandro]

what was wrong with it exactly? did he mention it?

[EsbSpecial]

He said that at first glance the horn was good, but there have been so many half-assed repairs done on it in its lifetime that he'd have to start replacing rods and posts. Apparently there are screws in it that blatantly didn't fit, until someone bored out the posts. Most of the toneholes aren't in true round, but made to look it by having the key cups bent all out of whack; just leveling the lower stack would be such a pain in the *** that he considers the horn "lost."

He is thinking of using it as a practice repair horn for his students. We will see...

[milandro]

well, Requiescat in Pace :shock:

[EsbSpecial]

I guess it means that I just wasn't meant to have a bari..this is #3 that has turned out to be a crappy deal for me.

Times like this make me wish that there was a real music store in my area. All I got is a place that sells guitars and rents bundys to kids and think they know about horns. Don't get me started on the Wurlitzer Bari that has been sitting there for 2 years with a price tag of $1199 that doesn't play.

[milandro]

well, you got me curious, why doesn't it play and why did it cost so much?

[tictactux]

(...) with a price tag of $1199 that doesn't play.
To be fair, I've never seen a price tag that played. Okay, some literally screamed "buy me!" but that's different, methinks. :D

Now...back to your Grassi. I hear the tech and see what's wrong. On the other hand...how big is the gap between "playable for fun" and "best possible condition"? Sure, most shudder at the thought of bent-for-fit keycups and the like, but when you mention "plenty of guts", maybe there's a satisfying middle way? Just like a car with the spare tyre on will still bring you from A to B.
You can't make a silk purse of that sow's ear, but maybe a halfway decent tobacco pouch?
Just my two ¢.

[EsbSpecial]

I do not want a silk purse, and I never expected to get one. I trust and respect my horn guy (a strange combination, I know) and we have known each other long enough for him to be able to know what will make me happy with a horn.

The Wurlitzer is all boogered up. Key heights, pads, springs, action...everything. The springs are so wonky that it feels like half of it is on a stiff action, while the other half is on a really spongy one. ANd that is after their "horn guy" "went over it."

They honestly have no idea what they are doing.