$3750.00 for a mouthpiece

[LateNiteSax]

Thats funny.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Guardala-FatBoy-MBII-Tenor-Saxophone-Mouthpiece_W0QQitemZ330353271515QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cea96e2db&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_500wt_1030

[jmoen3]

Looking to fund the purchase of SA80 Soprano too. Looks like he should just offer it for a trade straight up haha :).

[spike421]

Ah, and now we move from the ridiculous to the absurd. "Vintage" mouthpiece prices have just gotten completely out of hand. I wonder when the crash will happen? Will there be a bail out?

[jazzpsychic]

Damn! I knew I shoulda hung on to that old Guardala............

[patchmo]

Interestingly enough, the etching looks like it was done by someone in prison...:confused:...:dazed:...:scratch:...Ohhhhh h! My bad!! He is in prison:shock:

[saxtek]

Free shipping!

[modman]

....and I was backing off the $350 price for a JJDV alto.

[Grumps]

Or make an offer. There are millions of overpriced products on Ebay. It's really only news if someone goes through with the purchase at the inflated price.

[EmKay]

He is in prison:shock:

And not really having a blast, according to the first article on this website (http://guardala.net/).

[Bebopking]

Why is he in jail? What did he do?

[EmKay]

Why is he in jail? What did he do?

Basically, he was selling vintage saxes and mouthpieces that didn't exist. And people believed him and his good name and got conned for a LOT of money.:shock:
Then they decided to press charges, and Dave got arrested in Germany 2 years ago. Goto guardala.net (http://guardala.net) for details.

[Bebopking]

Basically, he was selling vintage saxes and mouthpieces that didn't exist. And people believed him and his good name and got conned for a LOT of money.:shock:
Then they decided to press charges, and Dave got arrested in Germany 2 years ago. Goto guardala.net (http://guardala.net) for details.

Wow what a scumbag!! I don't understand what makes someone think they can get away with that?

[Honeyboy]

Thats funny.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Guardala-FatBoy-MBII-Tenor-Saxophone-Mouthpiece_W0QQitemZ330353271515QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cea96e2db&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_500wt_1030

I think if someone likes a mouthpiece and it works for him, cost shouldn't be a factor.



:TGNCHK:

[patchmo]

And not really having a blast...WoW! By the time this site loads on my iPhone he might be out:twisted:
Maybe it's on "lock-down.":razz:

[Thomas]

Wow what a scumbag!! I don't understand what makes someone think they can get away with that?


Because there's a sucker born every minute. That's my opinion of those who got themselves "suckered". I take it you missed all the whining that went on in the past about this.

[Bebopking]

Because there's a sucker born every minute. That's my opinion of those who got themselves "suckered". I take it you missed all the whining that went on in the past about this.

Ya, I haven't been a member of this forum very long. When I first joined in 2008, I hardly ever logged in. I check the forum frequently now. I've learned alot. (Comment edited out.)

[jmoen3]

Ya, I haven't been a member of this forum very long. When I first joined in 2008, I hardly ever logged in. I check the forum frequently now. I've learned alot. (Comment edited out.)

Maybe a little bit opinionated. Believe as you will, but I don't believe spreading word like that is right. I thought in a few threads ago, you said you didn't want to bring this up. Please go back to that policy before you turn a funny thread ugly.

[FunkyHorn626]

Never thought I would see the day when a mouthpiece would cost almost as much if not more then a killer horn.....

[brasscane]

If I am not mistaken, the seller is a fairly prolific poster on SOTW. Recently, the same individual sold a Francois Louis solid silver mouthpiece for sale for around $2,500 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330342358352). A steal if it makes you play like Bob Berg. I can't say that I fault the seller when the dealers do the same all the time. The US is full of individuals for whom $3,500 is no more proportionally speaking than five bucks for the rest of us. Most are probably collectors. I don't think these pieces show up at your local gig. What I cannot figure out is why people stifle at the price of currently completely handmade pieces that run upwards of $1,000 when they are willing to spent that kind on money on old Links that have been refaced once or more. That makes no sense to me at all.

[djcuba908]

Maybe a little bit opinionated. Believe as you will, but I don't believe spreading word like that is right. I thought in a few threads ago, you said you didn't want to bring this up. Please go back to that policy before you turn a funny thread ugly.

Too late, Bebopking already ruined it.

[djcuba908]

The US is full of individuals for whom $3,500 is no more proportionally speaking than five bucks for the rest of us.

Well, I don't know who you're referring to in the US, but I don't know anyone like that or that the United States is full of people readily spening $3500 on anything.

[jmoen3]

Well, I don't know who you're referring to in the US, but I don't know anyone like that or that the United States is full of people readily spening $3500 on anything.

Well, he is probably referring to the statistic of how much of our wealth is in less than 10% of the population, and I'm sure any of that 10% would be capable of throwing around that much money. I believe that for the most part, most of those people aren't saxophone players, or members of this forum.

[brasscane]

Well, I don't know who you're referring to in the US, but I don't know anyone like that or that the United States is full of people readily spening $3500 on anything.
Of Western societies, the US has one of, if not the the greatest, gaps between the rich and poor. I am not well off but through my work I have come across with plenty of people for whom $3,500 is chomp change. Except, perhaps for the past year, you will find that 5-digit horns fetch 5-digit figures from the major vintage saxophone retailers rather quickly, so I am not terribly surprised that the Francois Louis mouthpiece actually sold for $2,5K. Don't ask me why a Guardala would be expected to be worth more.


Well, he is probably referring to the statistic of how much of our wealth is in less than 10% of the population, and I'm sure any of that 10% would be capable of throwing around that much money. I believe that for the most part, most of those people aren't saxophone players, or members of this forum.
I believe for the most part, the very expensive pieces are bought by collectors and don't see much playing but this is merely a notion.

[LampLight]

Ah, and now we move from the ridiculous to the absurd. "Vintage" mouthpiece prices have just gotten completely out of hand. I wonder when the crash will happen? Will there be a bail out?

What he said. I don't fault the seller one iota either. It's the buyers that enable this lunacy.

[jmoen3]

Removed reference to deleted post.

Uhm... Thats pretty offensive, and quite wrong. He is actually very right! There is a HUGE gap between the middle class of America and the upper class. As I said, a HUGE amount of the wealth in america can be found in less than 10% of its population. This makes for one enormous gap between the middle class, and the upper class.

[wersax]

I've played both the Francois Louis and the Guardala Fat Boy referred to in this thread and they're both really good pieces, though I can't afford spending that kind of $ on a mouthpiece. The seller, an "SOTWer", is a good guy and both of these pieces are highly collectible items; with those sort of high prices we can assume that the intended buyers are not gigging in some blues bar to say the least! I'm not saying I understand why anyone would collect sax mouthpieces and pay such high prices or how the prices got that high, but it is what it is.
FWIW, the seller sold me a one of a kind Guardala that is my main piece now, for a very reasonable--cheap even--price. From what I understand highly collectible pieces such as this Fat Boy very often sell "off auction", rather than through eBay, at a negotiated price.....

[warp x]

Removed reference to deleted post.

Offensive and unnecessary. Do you know Squeak? Don't act like that to people you clearly know nothing about.

[brasscane]

Removed reference to deleted post.
That would explain a lot.:( But, please be fair. The "monkey" is a chimp.


I've played both the Francois Louis and the Guardala Fat Boy referred to in this thread and they're both really good pieces, though I can't afford spending that kind of $ on a mouthpiece.
Can you describe the Francois Louis piece please? What does it play like if there is anything more accessible to compare it to? I have purchased a few items from you on ebay, including a refaced $35 Vandoren alto, that plays great. Exactly as described like the others. I would be curious and appreciative to hear your thoughts.

[milandro]

Allow me a little consideration on this

The divide between rich and poor anywhere is incredible and it is very possible that some people perceive 3750$ (even in the United States, still the richest country on earth!) to be a lot of money while others would just consider it peanuts.

Everything is relative.

Yesterday evening I was watching " Dragon's den" on BBC . One of the participants was seeking investment for his enterprise which builds Tudor styled Wendy houses. The investment was frowned upon by the Dragons and Deborah Meaden, a dragon, even said that the problem with this product and business was that the price (28,000 £ ) was too high. Russell Bowlby, the builder, didn't think it was a problem and answered that he had sold 9 already. Peter Jones, another dragon, said that he was going to make him an offer, but not for the company, but for the Wendy House.........28,000£!


Now I like Peter Jones, he is a nice guy and he has, several times, shown that he would invest in a lot of business just for reasons of principles.


But 28,000£ for fun ? Obviously what , to me, looks like an outrageous amount of money doesn't look too much to him in order to humour his daughter(s) and friends.


Do I have the right to criticize that and pass moral judgements and so on? I do not think so, unless I am prepared to stop enjoying the perks of capitalism myself and live in a pretty different way, no, I do not believe it would be fair of me to pass judgement.

Besides, I have no idea of how much does this man do to help the less fortunate people in the world. For all I know he might give a million a year away for charity. Don't know. One thing is for sure, it is his own money that he is spending and he worked very hard to earn it.


I just came back from a Tunisian Holiday. The country is nice and not expensive at all. But one can see that there is poverty although it shows itself with dignity. Wages are 150$ to 250$ a month for most people who work in industrial plants belonging mainly to western countries. Such as one of the largest Benetton (Italian clothing) factories in the world. The taxi driver told me that life in Monastir could be nice but expensive. He had no idea how much the villas of the " corniche" (the nice road along the seashore) were, since they were too far away from his dreams, he could never make that kind of money.........he told me that you can buy a very nice apartment in town with airconditioning, 3-4 bedrooms lounge and kitchen, perhaps a Garage for 40,000 Euro........which is not very far a price from the 28,000£ that Peter Jones paid for his daughter(s) to play .........


Everything is relative.


3750$ for a mouthpiece can indeed be a lot of money for some, it is for me, but even 100$ is a lot of money for the majority of the people on earth living on a couple of bucks a day.......

what looks normal to you might not look so normal to someone a little lower on the wealth ladder, the very fact that we play saxophone for fun could be seen as an extravagant waste of money by some. Everything is relative! ;) :)

[saxpiece]

If so called collectors want to mainly sell things to each other at inflated prices then so be it.

I think the only concern about price is if beginners can not afford a half decent instrument and mouthpiece.

[oldcorollas]

all you need is 1 person in that top 1% to have a taste for expensive metal things that others use to make music.. and you are set :)
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
all you need is someone like Dave Letterman or whoever... surely price is not a concern?


how does one define decent? is a $300 new sax half decent? or only 1/4 decent? :)

[milandro]

If so called collectors want to mainly sell things to each other at inflated prices then so be it.

I think the only concern about price is if beginners can not afford a half decent instrument and mouthpiece.

In all honesty one can, nowadays, buy a good saxophone and a good mouthpiece for under the 1000$ total! No student, however talented, "needs " any of the items which fetch top prices!

Luxury and collectors have always been there and they are part of the system that allows you to have and spend incomparably more than most other people on earth......and to think that only 5 digits mark VI's and Guardala or Francois Louis handmande mouthpieces separate a poor student from excellence is preposterous.

Remember that for most people on earth a 2000$ (which we in most western countries easily spend) horn is just as un-reacheable as 100,000 $ for us

[saxpiece]

decent, half decent meaning that the instrument is capable of being played quite easily and every thing is working as it should and it's basically in tune as much as a sax can be.


I don't know about saxes too much but in the 70s decent or half decent guitars were hard to come by.

I started on a $20 Classical guitar made by God knows who and the neck had a huge bow and the strings were so high off the fretboard that even a Gorilla would have had trouble with them.
For me at that time, a decent or half decent Acoustic or Fender or Gibson electric was way out of my price range and luckily the Japanese started making instruments in a big way and my first decent guitar was a Ibanez.

Now there are Chinese and Asian made instruments that are in most peoples price range and a lot of then are decent or half decent and some are very decent.

I started sax in the 80s and there didn't seem to be a great choice for beginners back then and I started on a Taiwan made Evette.

I could go down the shop today and buy a $200 guitar or sax and start playing in a band with it.

I think the beginners market has improved greatly since the 70s.

[LampLight]

. . . Do I have the right to criticize that and pass moral judgements and so on? I do not think so, unless I am prepared to stop enjoying the perks of capitalism myself and live in a pretty different way, no, I do not believe it would be fair of me to pass judgement.

Besides, I have no idea of how much does this man do to help the less fortunate people in the world. . . .
Well said IMO. Most of us have a lot to be grateful for and live far better than huge masses of people. I suspect we usually know precious little about the ones we criticize too.



If so called collectors want to mainly sell things to each other at inflated prices then so be it.

I think the only concern about price is if beginners can not afford a half decent instrument and mouthpiece.
I don't think collectibles affect the price of good entry level equipment. If anything the reverse is true (to a small extent): The money spent on collectibles can not be spent bidding up the price of well made modern gear. For example, there are several vendors offering professional grade mouthpieces in the roughly $300 range.

[saxpiece]

I think the collectors market has little or no effect on the beginners market so my point was that as long as there are decent beginners instruments available at a decent price then the so called collectors should be able to do what they want which from what I've picked up seems to mostly involve selling things to each other.

The guitar collectors I've had dealings with mostly do this and I'm talking about $300,000 plus guitars.
The guitars seem to just go from one collector to another and hardly any of them play them.

[wersax]

Self-deleted: misunderstood a post!

[wersax]

Allow me a little consideration on this

The divide between rich and poor anywhere is incredible and it is very possible that some people perceive 3750$ (even in the United States, still the richest country on earth!) to be a lot of money while others would just consider it peanuts.

Everything is relative.

Yesterday evening I was watching " Dragon's den" on BBC . One of the participants was seeking investment for his enterprise which builds Tudor styled Wendy houses. The investment was frowned upon by the Dragons and Deborah Meaden, a dragon, even said that the problem with this product and business was that the price (28,000 £ ) was too high. Russell Bowlby, the builder, didn't think it was a problem and answered that he had sold 9 already. Peter Jones, another dragon, said that he was going to make him an offer, but not for the company, but for the Wendy House.........28,000£!


Now I like Peter Jones, he is a nice guy and he has, several times, shown that he would invest in a lot of business just for reasons of principles.


But 28,000£ for fun ? Obviously what , to me, looks like an outrageous amount of money doesn't look too much to him in order to humour his daughter(s) and friends.


Do I have the right to criticize that and pass moral judgements and so on? I do not think so, unless I am prepared to stop enjoying the perks of capitalism myself and live in a pretty different way, no, I do not believe it would be fair of me to pass judgement.

Besides, I have no idea of how much does this man do to help the less fortunate people in the world. For all I know he might give a million a year away for charity. Don't know. One thing is for sure, it is his own money that he is spending and he worked very hard to earn it.


I just came back from a Tunisian Holiday. The country is nice and not expensive at all. But one can see that there is poverty although it shows itself with dignity. Wages are 150$ to 250$ a month for most people who work in industrial plants belonging mainly to western countries. Such as one of the largest Benetton (Italian clothing) factories in the world. The taxi driver told me that life in Monastir could be nice but expensive. He had no idea how much the villas of the " corniche" (the nice road along the seashore) were, since they were too far away from his dreams, he could never make that kind of money.........he told me that you can buy a very nice apartment in town with airconditioning, 3-4 bedrooms lounge and kitchen, perhaps a Garage for 40,000 Euro........which is not very far a price from the 28,000£ that Peter Jones paid for his daughter(s) to play .........


Everything is relative.


3750$ for a mouthpiece can indeed be a lot of money for some, it is for me, but even 100$ is a lot of money for the majority of the people on earth living on a couple of bucks a day.......

what looks normal to you might not look so normal to someone a little lower on the wealth ladder, the very fact that we play saxophone for fun could be seen as an extravagant waste of money by some. Everything is relative! ;) :)

Well said, Milandro.

[EmKay]

So guys, the main point is that we can't afford this mouthpiece. So what the hell...do we have the piece we're satisfied with? Yes, we do.

What on earth are we talking about? 3500$...i would feed me wife and kids with this kind of money for at least a month...and please don't tell me i'm banal or profane.

[hakukani]

That would explain a lot.:( But, please be fair. The "monkey" is a chimp.



Pan troglodytes to be precise, rather than the genus Macaca (aka macaques).:)

[wersax]

So guys, the main point is that we can't afford this mouthpiece. So what the hell...do we have the piece we're satisfied with? Yes, we do.

What on earth are we talking about? 3500$...i would feed me wife and kids with this kind of money for at least a month...and please don't tell me i'm banal or profane.

No point in being defensive, EmKay; I can't imagine any reasonable person thinking that your statement is banal or profane. Most people think it's crazy to spend that kind of $ on a mouthpiece, me included. Other people's circumstances may be different that ours though, that's all.

[milandro]

Yes, it is a lot of money....... to you and me, but in my long post before I tried to point out that some things which look normal........ to you and me....... might look extravagant to someone else poorer than us in the same way that the spending pattern of richer people looks alien and perhaps objectionable to us.

If we question buying a 3750£ mouthpiece couldn't (shouldn't) we be equally called to answer to someone living on a 1 or 2 $ a DAY ( !!!) budget about our lifestyle and the extravagant waste of money that it is to have bought a 2000$ saxophone (almost 3 years income for them) a 30,000$ car and so on?

Again, I am not trying to justify social inequality, I am just saying that it is there and that , unless we re-discuss the principles under which we live (and I do not say that it would not be a good thing to do so), one cannot criticize how another spends money unless you are prepared to see tha your lifestyle is equally strange and wasteful in somebody else's eyes!

[LampLight]

. . . I am just saying that . . . one cannot criticize how another spends money unless you are prepared to see that your lifestyle is equally strange and wasteful in somebody else's eyes!
Yes, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Hey milandro: Since when was humility allowed on the forum? Is this something new? :TGNCHK:

[EmKay]

No point in being defensive, EmKay; I can't imagine any reasonable person thinking that your statement is banal or profane. Most people think it's crazy to spend that kind of $ on a mouthpiece, me included. Other people's circumstances may be different that ours though, that's all.

Of course, and who am i to judge the way someone spends his money. In addition, i really can understand if someone wants to buy himself a piece like this, if he can afford it. It's just that i really believe that 3750$ is too much a money for this mouthpiece. I can justify that kind of price only because poor Dave sits in the prison (and i really mean poor, because it's a kind of life i wouldn't wish to anyone), and probably will never make another mouthpiece in his life.
Then again, i may be wrong. In both cases...

[wersax]

That would explain a lot.:( But, please be fair. The "monkey" is a chimp.


Can you describe the Francois Louis piece please? What does it play like if there is anything more accessible to compare it to? I have purchased a few items from you on ebay, including a refaced $35 Vandoren alto, that plays great. Exactly as described like the others. I would be curious and appreciative to hear your thoughts.

I'll PM you, Squeak; I don't want to hijack the thread.

[milandro]

Y
Hey milandro: Since when was humility allowed on the forum? Is this something new? :TGNCHK:

Yeah! Fresh air! :TGNCHK:

[LateNiteSax]

I just ordered some LT Guardalas from WWBW to try. I am going to get 2 Super King R&Bs, 1 Studio and 1 MB II.
They are on sale for $169.00, for another $100.00 perhaps I will have one set up by Norbert Stachel or the like set it up or if I like one of them out of the box I will just happily use it. Are you doing the math yet? Thats 269.00+shipping... I can say with absolute certainty that there ain't no 3750.00 mouthpiece gonna get me more gigs or make me sound better.

From all the commemtary I have heard around here, the current LT's are really quite excellent, different than the handmades but quite comparable in quality and playablility. I do not hear anyone badmouthing these new LT models. Technology has come a long way in mouthpiece manufacturing. I hear that the current crop of LT Guardalas are better than the originals from 7-8 years ago. Is this true?

Anyone who wants to chime in their thoughts and feelings about the Guardala LTs would be appreciated.

[AfroBeat]

Let me give my 2cents worth for free , probably a sucker but in the circus no matter how you decorate the monkey cage its still a cage.The Capital vs Labour of the Market Place is bound by firm absolute principles.The bottom line being the rule of law.The bottom line of that being force.A bullet can be quite final. All commodities wether medicine , food ,Mouthpieces , etc are intrinsically tied together in the MarketPlace.The out comes may be relative and quite absolute to the individual.I dont want PT Barnum selling me food ,medicine for my children , etc. I have known people who have paid with their lives and their childrens lives all due to the price of food , a commodity bound up with all other commodities . Perhaps one should visit their graves and erect a sign ..here lies a sucker....but i dont have time for such silly sentimentality . I think it is the right of any individual to critique society . Any keep blowing , its your life going down that tube and hopefully turning into music .

[Uri Ben]

Those sort of events like the sell of that MP for such crazy price are putting in shameful vulgarity all our beautiful world of sax's music.

[milandro]

like when a painting or a car changes hands for a lot of dough? How does money vulgarize the poetic world of saxophones? Saxophones are musical instruments which people buy and sell. Some are cheaper some are more expensive. You can can buy a saxophone for 200$ and for 7.000$. For sure , since the amount of materials is the same , the ones that sell their saxophones for 7.000$ claim to be adding some special quality, some artistic value, some, " je ne sais quoi ".

So extra money goes to compensate for the " je ne sais quoi" or added value of a piece of metal which scrap value is the same or almost the same of a cheap horn or mouthpiece

What you pay for, is the " art" of the one who made a certain piece of metal be special.

If two or more rich people want to acquire that " art" (or the idea of it....) they engage in a auction and the value of that particular piece of metal (+ the added value of the " art" of the artisan who made it) is determined then and there.


Do you think that saxophones or mouthpieces are made for the exercise of the noble art of mouthpiece or saxophone making or to make a living a possibly to make money with it?


The artistry (and poetry of it all) that you are talking about maybe be there but it is in the blowing.

Instead, when they buy and sell things that you you want but cannot buy, it sucks! ;) :)