the woodwinds

[summerdays]

Hello,
I'm new to this forum, so I hope this post goes thru.
I just bought a soprano sax from some maker called 'The Woodwinds'.
I bought it new, so I thought that after a few minor adjustments, I
could start playing. The sax is more that a half-interval too sharp!
I adjusted the mouthpiece, the neck, and tried as best I could to see
if the valve openings were ok. But whenever I transpose to concert
key, I found I had to go up a extra half interval to sound right. And, yes
I tried playing with a number of intruments. I checked my piano to see
if it is true to concert pitch. It is. I've played alto sax, so I think I
have a pretty good idea how to bring an off-pitch instrument to the
right pitch. But this sax is more than slightly sharp . . .it is slightly more
than a half-interval sharp!! For instance, if the piano is playing in 'C',
the normal transposition is to play in 'D' on the soprano. I'm having to
transpose to D#! Am I missing something with this sax, or
have I got a hold of a lemon?
Thanks,
Summerdays

[Andrew]

Are you an experienced player on the *soprano*? The alto and soprano are almost two different horns. If your mouth and throat position isn't correct, your tuning will go way out of whack in an instant. But, I think the horn is just cheaply made. You have to be real careful with sopranos...they are all very touchy and if you pick the wrong one, you are screwed. I personally think there are more crappy sopranos than there are good ones.

Andrew

[Joe]

Summerdays, if your having to play a D# instead of a D, then you're a half step flat. First thing to try (after pushing the mouthpiece all the way in) is a stiffer reed. Next would be a different mouthpiece. If it's still flat, have an experienced soprano player try it.

The Woodwind is the house brand for the Woodwind and Brasswind shop. As far as I can tell, no one is exactly sure which Asian company makes them and there's some evidence that they have used more than one supplier. The ones I have seen have tried have had some serious pitch issues but getting up to concert pitch wasn't one of them.

[Dave Dolson]

I recently traded off a WW&BW curved sop. Poor intonation was the problem - it played sharp on the low end. I've said this before in other posts - you get what you pay for. My experiences with cheap Taiwanese saxophones has not been good. Are there some good ones out there? Maybe, but I haven't seen them, only read about them. For sopranos, I recommend either buying a nice vintage horn from one of the SOTW folks who specialize in them, or ponying up the big bucks and buying one of the Big Four brands. DAVE

[summerdays]

Joe,

Thanks for the mouthpiece and reed tip. Now regarding the key the
soprano sax would play if it was transposing to piano(I'm playing Bb sax
while accompanying a piano) if my horn has to match the piano's sound,
I need to transpose up a whole step, since the sax is Bb. Since the
piano key is 'C', the sax needs to play in D. I've played altos and
baritones, but just starting the soprano. Is there something about the
soprano that makes you say, "...a D# instead of a D, then you're a half
step flat."? That is, transpose 2 steps up when the piano is playing in
'C'(sax plays an E instead of D)?
Thanks
Summerdays

[pknight]

I think that Joe is saying that if you have to play a D# in order to match the C on your piano, then your D# is sounding as a D, so you are a half-step flat. If you were not flat, then your D# would match C# on the piano.

Of course, you should only need to transpose up two semitones for any Bb instrument. Are you certain that you cannot push the mouthpiece on further? On a soprano, being so short, small adjustments can make a big difference.

Do you have a chromatic tuner, or are you tuning by ear? It might help to know exactly how far off you are. When I first played the soprano, I did not have the mouthpiece on nearly far enough, and I was way flat. Now, I push the piece on almost to the end of the cork, and there are no tuning problems.

[hangman]

Play a Bb on the piano and play a C on the Soprano sax.

You now have a Bb instrument, so for you to be in tune playing a C, The 'C' pitch instrument plays a Bb.

If the piano plays a C, the Sop Sax needs to play a D (one whole step higher regardless).

This seems like 7th grade tuning lesson here...

Good luck with the Soprano, I love a good one in tune, but there are so many that are awful, or as Simon Cowell were say, 'Simply Deadful'.

You get what you pay for.

[Straightsax]

Summer:

First subject: Transposing.

I'm assuming you know how to read music. If you have a sheet in front of you and it is in the key of C [also known as the piano key or concert key] and you want to play off of the concert key sheet just add two sharps to the key signature and read the note as if it were written on or in the line above.

So, when playing the key of C or any key that has sharps in it just add two sharps to the key signature and read the notes as if it were written on or in the line above.

In the Key of F, continue to add two sharps buy removing the one flat and adding one sharp [same thing as adding two sharps to get to the Key of G] and read the notes as if it were written on or in the line above.

When playing flat keys other than F, subtract two flats [which is the same thing as adding two sharps] and read the notes as if it were written on or in the line above.

The only other problem that could exist is if there are the natural signs and accidentals. Those also have to be transposed accordingly by playing those notes a full step up from how they are written in the original key. This is the only time the original key signature comes back into play.

This works for any Bb instrument transposing to concert key.

The reason they call it a Bb instruments is because when you play Bb, you are actually playing a Concert C. [The reason they call Alto's and Baritones an Eb instrument is because when you play an Eb you are also playing a concert C. The reason they did this was to keep the fingering the same on all of the saxophones.]

Second subject: Pitch and intonation.

The vibe I'm getting here is that you are in over you head. This is nothing personal mind you. But if you just received this horn there are many hurdles that would take you quite a bit of time to figure out. We are talking soprano here right? Indeed, you may never figure this out without the help of a person that can play and adjust this soprano. Also, I am not saying that the problem is you and consequently this is why you are in over your head.

It could be the mouthpiece; it could be it's placement; it could be the way the horn is adjusted; it could be your embouchure and it could be all or any part of these elements. Please remember that the minute one adjusts the horn that changes where the mouthpiece goes on the cork for maximum quality of tone and pitch.

You need a qualified person who plays soprano and knows how to adjust the horn so it will play in tune. Therefore you need a person with two qualities: They have to be able to play soprano well and they have to know how to adjust the horn so it plays in tune. Not every tech can play soprano, and if they can't you are wasting your time. At least that's been my experience. They can't fix the darn thing by the spec book alone, which is why I adjust my own horn. It is not that easy because the keys in the stack work interdependently and not independently. There should be adjustment screws in the upper stack. [Keys from B to G]. Get a qualified person to see if this horn can be adjusted. These problems usually are in the upper stack, but I haven't seen your horn so please don't think that this is it.

Once the horn is adjusted, the person that did the adjustment will be able to show you where the mouthpiece goes. You may place the mouthpiece a little differently because of your embouchure. But at least you will have a ballpark figure on where the mouthpiece is placed. You can always make a light pencil marking on the cork so that you don't forget. Also, ask about the horn being in tune with itself.

You do not have a lemon if an adjustment is all it takes. If the horn can't be adjusted then you might have a lemon. I've had Selmer's back from the shop just after a pad job and it had to be adjusted because it didn't play in tune. So this problem is not uncommon and I'm sorry to hear that you are faced with it. Sometimes, just putting new pads in is all it takes to have problems.

You can try and do this yourself, but you can also wind up making it worse instead of better. Besides, with a qualified person you will save a lot of time and stress and be up and running in the shed. It has been my experience that a horn just off the factory line is not ready to be played without a look from qualified tech.

Right now you sound like you are all over the map and if the horn is out of adjustment, that's exactly where you are. Welcome to the world of the soprano's. Good luck in your search.

Straightsax.

[summerdays]

Answering a previous post, I have been playing music for over ten
years. And I have no trouble with intonation when using the alto sax ,
nor are any problems with transposing on that sax.

Joe,

I understand what you're saying. . .since the horn seems to be tuned to
Amaj., and not BbMaj, then the horn is tuned too flat (horn too long). So
I need to 'shorten' the horn by pushing the mouthpiece further in, or
getting a mouthpiece with a smaller inside volume to make the notes
sharper. I don't have the horn with me now, but I will try it when I get it
back.
I know the soprano is short, but can moving the mouthpiece, say, an
inch further in change the note as much as a half-step?! I never had to
get this much of a change from the alto sax. I just bought the soprano
horn (new) within the last two weeks, and I can return it in 30 days from
purchase date, if don't damage it. Given what you've said so far, what
would you suggest? Work with it until I get it in tune, or take it back?

Summerdays

[Jerry K.]

With most sopranos I've played, I end up pushing the mouthpiece in so that only about 1/4" of cork is still exposed. Makes a very big difference in tuning.

[Leo]

The reason they call it a Bb instruments is because when you play Bb, you are actually playing a Concert C. [The reason they call Alto's and Baritones an Eb instrument is because when you play an Eb you are also playing a concert C. The reason they did this was to keep the fingering the same on all of the saxophones.]


It's actually the other way round - when you play C, you are playing concert Bb on Bb instruments and concert Eb on Eb instruments. Probably just faster typing than thinking...

Leo

[Straightsax]

Answering a previous post, I have been playing music for over ten
years. And I have no trouble with intonation when using the alto sax ,
nor are any problems with transposing on that sax.

First, I'm not trying to talk down to you, just trying to cover all of the bases. If you live near the supplier of this particular horn, I would take it back and have them check it out. Have them demonstrate (by playing in front of you that) this horn has consistent intonation and can be played in tune. It will save you a lot of time and trouble.

At least you can rule out what isn't wrong. In some ways, and in all due respect, playing alto for a period of time may give you expectations relating to a soprano, because it's a saxophone. But those expectations may simply not be there. Soprano saxophones are fickle instruments, a lot more fickle than any alto, whether student or pro model.

Also the adjustments are more minute. It's a hair's breath compared to adjusting an alto. Just ask any repair person.

Some of the less expensive soprano's will only give you a consistent sound only after a lot of work. I do not take any pleasure in telling you this. Just the opposite.

If it is a mail order situation, I would sent it back. If you play with the adjustment screws then they can always say that you damaged it in some way where they cannot resell it. That's why I suggested a qualified tech. Otherwise, you may get, "What did you do to this thing?" It is better to take them up on their guarantee than to do them any favors which they may not appreciate. This appears to be something I didn't realize. My apologies.

Personally, I'm a firm believer in going to the source. It pays in the long run and continues to pay year after year. Knowing that you tried several soprano's of different makes and you chose the best within your price range. I traveled from California to Indiana years ago to buy a soprano. I have never regretted that trip yet. Was able to try out numerous soprano's before I bought one. It will also help you in the resale value, should that be your decision later. But then that's just me.

The longer you've been playing music the more a search may be the best way to go. By taking the first thing that comes in the mail you may be selling yourself short. Some people get lucky doing this. But there it appears that they have more luck in alto's, tenor's and bari's, not soprano's. I've had more story's from repair people about what they have to fix that came in the mail. This is no reflections of WW&BW. Never done business with them.

Soprano saxophones have been the rage for quite a while now. If all you were expecting was a high alto, then by now who have probably figured out that the soprano is it's own animal. Please be assured that you are not the first person to encounter this struggle. It may just be something minor, but if you cannot figure it out before the guarantee is up -- send it back.

The other thought is that soprano's by the same maker, same model number, produced in the same year do play differently. Once again, it is its own animal.

Hopefully, I'm reading too much into this and it's only something minor. Don't let the guarantee slip by without giving it a lot of thought.

On some soprano makes you have to place the mouthpiece all the way up the cork, on others it is a lot less that than. There are many factors involved. Keep pushing and keep adjusting till you get it. Then check to see if the horn is in tune with itself by playing C#2 [no keys] and C#1 with the octave key pressed. You should get the same note, with a little different timbre. It you are tuning to a piano, start out with your C# to the B on the piano. Then tune your F# to E on the piano. Then tune your B to the piano A.

Good luck, Straightsax.

[madgrocer]

Once you have tried pushing the mouthpiece in/ harder reeds etc. , if you still have a problem with the horn playing flat, you should return it to the Woodwind. They are great to deal with, I have bought a few horns from them, and they are a great company, and will stand behind what they sell.

Have you tried other notes on this horn other than D. Does this intonation problem hold through the entire horn, or just on that note?

Sopranos have inherent intonation problems, especially the cheaper brands. Some are worse than others, and you may have a bad one.