Which selmer?!

[rudesax]

Hi there!
I was just wondering if anybody has been fortunate enough to have played on (and compared)...

an original mark VI with the new reference 54
or
a 1936 balanced action (if they're still around?! :? ) with the new ref 36.

Im still playing on a yamaha YTS-32 (im a 17 year old student...'nuff said!) but hoping to get a new sax in the not too distant future.
I have 'test-driven' both references (and fell in love) but would like to know how they compare to the originals!

Lisa :P

[singlereed]

The Ref 54 has something of the Mark VI voice but has little in common with it in feel or real tone; I replaced my Ref 54 with a 1969 VI (not an especially fancied vintage) but it is a lot more fluid in action and has a sweeter tone that also offers more flexibility. I haven't a/b'd the 36 with a SBA, personally, but I did like the Ref 36 horn. If you are shopping for a new Selmer, don't rule out a Serie II, its a really good tenor and secondhand, you'll get more for your money.

[steve]

I recently did a side-by-side with my 1962 MVI, a new 36 and a new 54. My VI had a bigger more complex sound and a more solid feel to it....the 54 and 36 were capable horns, but I decided to overhaul my VI. I also test-played a Series II, and would rank it second to the VI, then the 36, then the 54. A very subjective and unscientific analysis.
What struck me more then anything was the poor workmanship on the cases of the new horns...a small detail, but it makes one think that if they cheapen the case, would they do the same with the horn?

[Saxophoon]

I have side-by-side tested my Ref 54 with a 2 VI's. The first was a 70 something VI. It was more open and had a much more spread sound then the Ref 54. The key action was much softer and took much less work then my 54 and I remember commenting that sometimes the VI felt like it was playing itself. I like the sound of my 54 much better then this horn and the 54's intonation won without a contest. I liked the VI but kept the 54.
VI's play the way they do because they've been played for years and years and are truelly broken in. I could see that if the Ref 54 and VI were on even ground break-in wise the 54 would kill the VI, it was almost killing the VI already and only 2 yrs old.
The other VI was a silver w/ gold wash bell form 57-58. I liked the sound of this one better then the 1st VI (1970 something) maybe because it sounded closer to my 54. Key action was fluid again and seemed like it played itself but once again the over all feel and playability of the 54 just killed it.

I cant wait until 20 or 30 yrs from now when my 54 is truely broken in, I can only imagine the potential this horn has!

[Riff]

I've played my 1972 Mark VI against the Ref 54 and I agree with the above posters. The VI has a more complex and flexible tone. The Ref 54 is a good horn by any standard but it ain't no Mark VI.

I also compared my VI against a Ref 36. The situation was similar but I liked the 36 better than the 54. All things considered, I kept the Mark VI.

However, when I compared it to a Keilwerth SX90R black nickel, I bought the JK and put the VI on back up status with no regrets.

[saxophobe]

While Mark VIs range anywhere from not to bad to outstanding, what really matters is what you are used to playing. I have a friend that is an outstanding player that traded in his Mark VI for a Conn 10M, and he is an incredible player. Joe Lovano plays on lots of different horns, including his Balanced Action and his straight tenor, and always manages to sound like Joe Lovano.

While your horn is important, you really have to ask yourself if this is the horn that you are most comfortable with, is this the horn that you sound your best, does it work with your mpce/reed setup, is the horn appropriate for what you are doing, etc....

I play a '63 Mark VI with an older Mark VI neck and a Guardala Studio mpce. because I'm comfortable with it, it sounds great, it works with my setup, does what I want it to do and sounds great on a jazz gig or a pop gig. This horn is not original laquer because some uneducated soul had it relaquered once(and not a very good job of it either). When I bought this horn about 8 years ago, this was the best horn I could find for what I do, I didn't get the older neck until later but it still sounded great, and I had the money at the time. It still took years for me to really get used to this horn.

My advice is find the best horn for you, no matter if it's a Selmer or not, and enjoy exploring the nuances of your horn and what you and the instrument are capable of together.

Hope this helps!

[MB-913]

In my personal opntion, Ref 54 doesn't sound like a good mark VI.
And Ref 36 doesn't sound like a good SBA.

I would say a good Mark VI and SBA has much better tone color and character.
The Ref 36 sounds more bright than Ref 54, and Ref 54 is very dark, even darker than many digitals Mark VI.

However, a good Mark VI (sound and condition) is real hard to find.
Since Euro value is very high now. If want to get a Selmer new horn, don't forget a Series II. Which better than Series III for me.

For 2nd hand horn, try to find a Series I (SB-80). It's very good, has old Selmer horn sound character.

[Dentarthurdent]

I second evreything Saxophobe says. Selmers are great horns but not way out in front like they used to be. Try some diferent horns and keep an open mind.

[JL]

Or you could explore some other options, like vintage Buescher, Conn, Martin, King, etc. I have a great MK VI and still play it a lot, but my Buescher Aristocrat has been winning the day on tone and sound quality. I know you asked about Selmers but I had to point this out anyway.

[Meggipop]

Hey hey, i can't help you but i was wondering who you were. Sound dodgy? Well, I'm 17 too, sax player from MK, and I dont know who you are. still sound odd? Well i was quite involved in the music centre and can put a name to most faces my age. Just wondered if you were involved too.

MEGAN

[saxophobe]

First, Bird played whatever he could find or borrow at the time. Although he did so out of necessity, he always sounded like Bird, no matter what he played.

Also, I believe Dave Liebman has/had some kind of book/video out on the subject of personalizing your sound. I haven't seen it around in a while, but it may still be available. I believe he plays Keilworth horns, and he sounds fantastic!

Just food for thought. Hope it helps!

[marc]

I would back-up saxophobe01 comments ...
Keep an open mind and choose a horn you are comfortable with.
I was playing aRef54 and now I moved to a Dave Guardala. Sound wise, people may not hear a great difference but what they hear is that I play quite more comfortable. It opened my playing a lot in the high register in particular compared to the Ref54.

[Harry]

I recently went looking for the best tenor the world has to offer. The ref 54 was the worst horn I found in the pro bracket. Sorry!

Try the Yamaha Custom Z or just go for the best: Borgani JL.

Best regards,
H

[mark_m_ny]

I totally agree with Steve,

The 36 and 54 loose out against the series 2, the 36 beeing the weakest of the bunch. The 54 is nice when completetly redone with shellac, properly floated pads and proper resonators. I have seen one such horn done by Roberto and it was playing real real capable. All modern horns stamped out by selmer from the factory can be best described as pieces of ...'need a lot of work'.

However the older series 2 has killer projection, killer volume, killer focus (none of which the 36 can claim) has a modern core sound but overall the sound is huge at least on mine which is 442,000.

The series 3 is a loud horn too but has a little spread and airy quality to it which I don't like but it would be my second best modern choice.

The MK6, I can only find ones with lots of problems, leaks and so on. The closet horns for $8000 I can't afford but I tried them and they kick acc, even the ones around 150,000 I like, they are great rock and funk horns. Particularly the SBA around 48,000 are MONSTERS, maybe the stradivarius of saxes. Please don't try them back to back with the famed reissue, the ref 36, you'll laugh and then cry. The sopranos SBA 48,000 are also wonderful too to say the least.

[shmuelyosef]

I tested a Ref 54 against my early SA80 (327XXX) and definitely preferred the SA80...it is, however non-standard, with oversized Noyeks and teflon, suede, etc throughout. The action was faster, intonation was equivalent, and the SA80 had a richer tone with more easily accessible dynamic extremes. Don't discount the SA80s...I would say that a used SA80 (any series, about $2000-$2500 on the open market) with a top-of-the-line custom overhaul ($1000 or so) is likely a better player than a new Ref 54 and a better value than a MkVI. I firmly believe that setup and familiarity makes a huge difference...more than anything else. I still mostly play my keilwerth, though!!

[mark_m_ny]

Smuley,

Sure, a $1000 setup is always a good idea. That's what I feel about Selmer, it is really a $5500 horn if you get a regular 54 and do all what is needed.

I heard you can put a sterling silver series 3 neck on the SA80 and you may be surprised you actually hold a MK6 in your hand. I did not try it but I tried 3 necks on the 2s and it was kind of nice.

You play the stock neck on your SA80?

The thing about the 2 though is you need a strong back, compared to the 36 it weighs a whole lot more but I feel the heavier construction, maybe thicker walls and old style hard brass make for the sound I am looking for, whereas the 36 felt like something frail and delicate, that's how it sounded too.

I tried a whoile lot of the Borganis which have a single post construction and should be more free blowing and vibrant, but I found the opposite, my series 2 blows them off the charts and has a better range, flexibility and so on. The 36 was the worst and sounded the same regardless as how you played it. I think thee is something inherently athematically wrong with the bore calculation. Don't tell me it has the boire of a SBS, because those play like a mother.

[Tears June]

We found a lot of problem in today's Selmer new horn (tenor & soprano, my experience) - Inconsistency quality, intonation, leak, over-price, keyword (usually too tight),....etc.

Is that mean we should not stick on SELMER this brand name. We should open our mind, try more different brands. Selmer period is gone ?

:cry:

[mark_m_ny]

Tears,

A top tech is able to lighten the action, adjust the posts so the action is free, rip out the pads, float in new pads, proper resos and replace all corks and felts.

the you have still the best sounding horn available, at least for the series 2 and 3s.

It's all a question of labor cost. After your done with the selmer it will run you more $6K but well spent.

If you have to pay $2600 for a taiwaneese canonball, it should tell you something.

I just heard from a Sam Ash manager that Yanigisawa does the horns in Taiwan and just pieces them together in japan. Probably same for Yamaha, if not now then soon.

The period of the small atelier such as Dolnet or Buffet are gone down the drain forever.

[jaankaden]

i agree with the various posts on selmer's sketchy quality control issues. unfortunately, however unjustified, selmer still seems to reign over the saxophone world. yes, an able technician can do all that is needed to make a horn sing, but it just shouldn't be so, at least not immediately out of the box.

mark_m_ny, i'm not sure about the taiwanese labor thing though. no offense meant, and i certainly am not trying to start a brand war, but i just don't think yanagisawa nor yamaha would do that, being japanese and all. no racism meant by that last remark (the contrary in fact), but i've always had a lot of respect for japanese people, their products and their ways because they take a lot of pride in the things they do, whatever it is. then again, you have your sources, i'm just basing this on my impression of japanese culture (there's a really nice video of a tour of the yamaha factory hosted by george shelby on the brass & woodwinds melbourne website).

i've been trying out various altos and tenors recently, and after wittling down my choices, both categories had the reference 54s and 82Zs unlacquered coming out tops (in MY opinion). honestly, it's a bit hard to justify the extra $1300-1500 for the selmer horns, yet i still kept them in the race. was it because they really performed better? maybe. did intrinsic value play a big part in my decision to still consider them despite the price? hell yes. i know, it's sad.

[Bootman]

None, try a vintage Buescher, Conn or Martin. You will get 300x's the sound and save yourself thousands.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I think the key with Selmer's is to play as many as you can.

Last week I played a killer Ref 54 tenor. I've liked most of the Ref 36 tenors I have played. My main horns are a 1969 Mark VI and a buescher 400 TH&C. Both are really great horns.

Again, plays as many horns as you can and don't pay so much attention to the name on it. Instead buy the one that you like the best.

[jaankaden]

i agree with what bootman and hurling said, and both these 2 are highly respected members of the forum, so it'll do you good to pay attention to whatever they have to say.

that said, the only reason i never mentioned any other horn is because of my recent bid to go modern. having played vintage saxes (except for a YAS-23 i started on many, many years ago) all this while, i just felt maybe it was time to give the modern horns (and myself!) a chance.

however, recommendations can only give you so much. like both men said, just go out there and try as many as you can get your hands on. don't deprive yourself of choices with a "selmer only" mindset. open yourself to all that's available, and more often than not, you'd be pleasantly surprised. :)

[Sigmund451]

I got to have some fun at a horn shop in another town yesterday. I got the chance to play several Selmers that are not stocked in my local shops. They had a nicely re-setup ref 54, a 36, and a Series III. Those are three very different horns. I was surprised at how dark the 54 sounded. I like dark but it was edging up pretty close to sounding stuffy. The Ref 36 didnt seem to have that classic Selmer core sound... A nice horn but nothing really special about it. I was surprised at the Series III. It sounded like an opened up VII with friendly keywork and a tad less french nasal sound. The III just may be at the top of my Christmans list.

[jaankaden]

hey sigmund451, interesting choice. from what i hear, many people weren't as happy with the serie iii tenors as they are with the altos and sopranos. i hate choosing between tenors, cos a tenor can sound so good in so many ways.

[Sigmund451]

That is very true. I did like the 54 but Id have to spend some more time with different mouthpieces and reeds before picking it since its a very distinctive sound. The 36 to me was kind of an overall generic. all purpose sound. I probably liked the III because Im used to the spread sound of a Martin and its not as tightly focused as some of the others. It is hard deciding. My lack of funds is currently making my decisions for me! What are the primary complaints about the III ?

[jaankaden]

they're quite a few peppering the tenor threads, but most of them are the sound thing. very subjective issue, so i guess that it's all the better that you picked yours cos you liked what it gave you.

i tried the serie ii, iii, reference 54 and 36 some time back. the ii sounded great, but keywork was a struggle. iii was, well, i'd put it as a pure sound. detractors would call it sterile. it also felt great. the 54 sounded nice, but nothing like my VI. it's kinda like when someone comes out with a reproduction of something, it's normally good, but probably nothing like the original. some say it's worse, but these kinda statements can't really make much sense considering the fact that we're probably making them based on an item's intrinsic value, plus the fact that we now have much more advanced technology at our disposal. as for the 36, it sounded like it didn't really know where it wanted to go soundwise. i can't have a confused saxophone when i myself am already just as confused. haha.

[Sigmund451]

hmm, I didnt find it thin at all. I had with me a JJ ESP metal and RJS reed. I didnt give it the full "Im gonna buy this work over" but I didnt get the impression that it was thin.

[jtrane]

Hi everyone. This is my first post on the forum. I live and perform in NYC. Buying a horn is such an incredibly personal thing. This week, I just picked up a 61xxx 1955 mark vi tenor. I was playing on a 69xxx previously, but just wasn't happy with it. It's amazing the varience you can find from VI to VI. I think that's the most important thing to remember about the vintage horns. Each one is completely different. I played so many horns the last week, but fell in love with this horn. I tried a couple ref 54s. Very consistant, but as mentioned in previous posts, I think too dark. The tenor I just got rid of was too stuffy. I tried a new Keilwerth Shadow. Great horn, and I was leaning towards it until I found this VI. So for me, the best VI is still the best horn around. The finger layout I noticed is pretty consistant for the earlier series horns. I tried a few 155xxx and they didn't feel as nice to me, but that's opionion. I wasn't crazy with the feel of the ref 54 or the keilwerth. Both felt clunky, but I guess I'm so used to really old horns with tons of mileage. I should mention the tenor I just bought has been stripped of the lacker and has domed metal resonators, so those things could account for it's massive sound, especially in the lower register. The subtone is full and effortless like I've never experiened. Easily the best tenor I've ever played. My alto is a 1956 68xxx relaquere. Easily best alto I've ever played. And my soprano is a black laquere series III. Wonderfull, full sound and terrific action. The low register sometimes gives me some issues, but that seems to change as the weather changes. Weird, huh?

But your sound is your sound. The difference is so minimal from horn to horn, and even mouthpiece to mouthpiece. The anatomical makeup of your throat, mouth, and nasal cavity has the largest impact on your sound. Why do you think nobody can sound like 'Trane even though they play on his exact set up? My suggestion is buy what feels and plays best for YOU. Doesn't matter what horn it is. It could be a $200 Bundy.

[Lotus54]

When I first tried a Ref 36 a couple of years ago I did a lot of comparing to my early 60's VI. I have had the VI since about 73 and have always liked it.
I was looking for a rounder sound, I tend to play a bit bright, plus I thought the intonation on the VI could have been a bit better. I also just plain wanted to play around with a new horn.
Oh yeah, my favorite horn I've ever tried was a '48 or so vintage SBA alto I bought for $150 around '68. I don't play alto much anymore, generally tenor or soprano.

I thought the Ref 36 was possibly closer to a SBA than a Balanced action, but that was to the good as far was what I wanted.

I feel the 36 has a rounder, bigger sound than the VI. The VI would be better in a louder setting, perhaps a rock band or the like. I especially like the big bottom on the 36. Intonation on the 36 is way better.

All said and done, I sold my trusty VI and bought the Ref36. Never have been sorry I did so. I quite enjoy the 36. I did try a 54 neck on the 36, but didn't like it at all.
Oh yeah, I'm using a very early Guardala 'traditional' MP- gold plate.

If you want to hear a comparison I recorded:


http://www.olympus.net/personal/markh/

I don't really care for my playing on this that much, but I think you can hear the difference in the horns.
I got it from Saxquest, with the setup from Randy.

Mark Hollingsworth

[mrd]

I play a 1992 Series II, and love it. It is in tone all the way up, and it is quite versatile.
I have played the ref 54, and if I had the money, I would buy it in a flash.

I tried the Shadow and Z.. As I have said before, so......... Of course they play well, but I felt no emotion from them.

So, another one with his own opinion.

The others are certainly right however. You can sometimes find a buy on a SA80 II, so consider that for the cost factor..

You will not regret it.