Headjoint fits

[mbfav]

So, I got this beautiful sounding Haynes commercial model on trial from a great local guy here in Chicago.

Although it feels good, the scale is good and the center of the tone is great, it has nowhere near the power and projection I have with either my current setup (nothing fancy, just a Jupiter 711) or his setup that I played (Haynes handmade with a Williams head).

I haven't been able try any other heads because the 3 options he had for his Haynes (.014) didn't fit the commercial (.018) body, nor does my Jupiter head.

Here is my question: Is the headjoint fit to the body determined by the wall thickness? In other words, will every headjoint made for a .018 flute fit every other? Same for the .014, .016 etc? Or does each manufacturer have a different ratio between the body and headjoint and you just have to see what fits?

I need to go and find a bunch of headjoints and see if there are ones that can give me more of the sound I'm looking for before I commit to buying the horn. I had this in mind anyway but I want to make sure I shouldn't be looking in other areas for flutes and its impossible for me (right now) to separate what the body is responsible for and what the headjoint is responsible for in terms of sound production.

I appreciate any light you can shed. Thanks.

Michael

[slausonm]

"Here is my question: Is the headjoint fit to the body determined by the wall thickness? In other words, will every headjoint made for a .018 flute fit every other? Same for the .014, .016 etc? Or does each manufacturer have a different ratio between the body and headjoint and you just have to see what fits?"

Yes, and no. The .014 and .016 is the thickness of the material used to make the head tube. So, if you take a sterling tube and swedge it on to the same head mandrel, the .014" head will in theory have a .004" smaller OD than the .016 head.

It also depends on the mandrel. It is (within reason) fairly easy for someone that knows what they are doing to fit a head. It is easier to take a small head and make it bigger than to take one that is too large and shrink it.

My advise would be buy yourself a $20 (metal...not plastic) digital caliper or dial caliper that measures to .001" and measure the tenon on one of the heads that fits your flute well. When you go shopping for the head measure the ones you like and if they are within .001 -.003" too big or too small, a competent repairer should be able to fit them for you...(after you purchase it of course) I wouldn't let you fit one of my heads to your flute unless I got the cash first.:D

FYI my Haynes hand made is considrable smaller than any of my other flutes, but I haven't measured it yet.

Good luck with the hunt for a new headjoint.
Matt

Matt

[bruce bailey]

I agree with the above. Also those old Haynes heads just don't cut it compare with the modern heads.

[Gordon (NZ)]

.... Or does each manufacturer have a different ratio between the body and headjoint and you just have to see what fits?....

I'd say that is pretty much true. Refitting is seldom a problem for an experienced, equipped technician, but sellers do not like you refitting joints to your flute before selling.

However if the head you are trying is undersized for your flute, then you can pack up the difference to effect a seal for a trial, with grease or Teflon plumbers tape with no notification or harm done to the head.


I agree with the above. Also those old Haynes heads just don't cut it compare with the modern heads.

I totally agree with Bruce, who seems quite experienced in the matter of flute heads.

However Kymarto's opinion differs. See the discussion from post 3 onwards at http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117931 (http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117931)

[jmathesonjr]

From what I understand, almost all after marker head joints need to be fit to the flute and that finding one that will fit a flute right out of the box is extremely hard. Getting some one to fit a head joint to a flute for trial is even rarer.

The best you can do is to try the head joint on another flute and, if you like it, buy it and hope it works as good for your own flute.

[mbfav]

Thanks to all of you for the thoughts. The summary of "hope it works" was not what I wanted to hear but now I know, right? I will be taking a roll of Teflon tape where I go for the time being. :)

Its like going out to test drive a car and liking the handling of one and the suspension of another and hoping that when those are combined, its a car you want to own. Thats an expensive guess but I've got some leads so I'm optimistic I'll be able to find a combination I'm excited about.

Additional thoughts (or even headjoint suggestions beyond those oft-discussed here) are certainly welcome.

Michael

[Black Obelisk]

Use the tape for a few weeks, or longer.
Then find an experienced tech to fit it, if you decide that its the head you are going to stick with.

I have a Haynes commercial, from 1951, which I play with a modern, 1990s, Haynes 0.14 head, with a gold riser. It works find. There's no reason you can't use a thinner wall head on a thicker body. (my "set-up" was deemed fine & do-able, by Jeff Weissman, of JW Flutes)

The old head on the commercial are OK, some better than others. Its a mixed bag. I tried about 8 commercial Hayneses before I bought mine. (I live in NY & could take advantage of going to Phil Unger's NY Flute Center AND JW Flutes, who both have big collections of flutes)

The old head on mine is nice. Its got a little "7" stamped on it, meaning it was made using "Mandrel Number 7", a mandrel that Haynes used on to make some of its head with, in the 1950s.

My modern, Jon Fugetta-era head is a bit more free blowing (not much), but had a much bigger lower register--I dig it.

Flutes..flutes..flutes...was just at the NFA convention yesterday in manhattan....tried a so many...for me, only a few stand-outs. (1885 closed-hole, Louis Lot; 1953 Commerical Powell [to die for!] and, oddly, a new 14K gold Yamaha Julius Baker model with a "K" headjoint--a real surprise, but great playing flute---these 3 were the favs of me & my friend)

Anyway, back to the thread. Congrats on you new flute. The Haynes commercial is a great sounding flute for the $$, for sure.

[kymarto]

The head diameter depends on the body diameter, which is different for every manufacturer and often different for different models by the same manufacturer and the same model made at different times. Somewhere on the web is a great chart of all the different diameters of different flutes by different makers, and they are all over the place.

Toby

[mbfav]

Thanks to all of the advice I received here (and all the help given to me by the player I bought the flute from), I settled on the Haynes commercial model with a Yamaha EC head (which is fabulous).

Runner-up went to the same EC on a new Yamaha 574 for nearly the same price as the above set up. Two completely different sounds and I had to decide what I was looking for and I think I have.

I also played the following with all their respective headjoints:

Yamaha 674
Yamaha 874
Sankyo CF401
Pearl 695
Pearl 765
Haynes (new, drawn tone hole model)

Maybe I'll start a new thread and detail my thoughts...

I also played a Drellinger head on an a Haynes commercial from a local guy that sounded great...and if I ever have the extra $4K I know I've got a great flute to build on if needed. :

Thanks, everybody for the help.

Michael