Reed seizing up. Any answers?

[John Tenor]

A reed that I had successfully used on a couple of gigs previously seized up on me after a few numbers at a gig yesterday. It started to get difficult to blow on the second number and then completely choked up and I couldn't get a sound from it. I had soaked it for an hour or so beforehand (shorter time than usual) but on this occasion I had not dried it with a cloth before using it.

I then tried a second reed that I had prepared in the same way (had also used it a couple of times before without a problem), and it did exactly the same thing. They were both Rico Jazz Select 3H from the latest box I had bought.

Luckily I had another older RJS 3H reed with me in case of difficulties and it played fine. It was dry since I had not soaked it in advance.

Could the first two reeds have been waterlogged?

Has anybody else experienced this?

[skippy]

Waterlogged would be my guess. Especially considering that the third one worked for you.

[bandmommy]

If you're soaking for an hour or longer....YES! YOUR REEDS ARE GETTING WATERLOGGED!

They only need about 5 minutes of soak time, if that.

[DanCraven]

wow, that's a lot of soaking. I suck mine for a second.

[Jazz House]

That is a lot of soaking. Way too much.

[hakukani]

If I was playing 3H, I think I would have to soak it for a long time, too.

[littlewailer]

If I was playing 3H, I think I would have to soak it for a long time, too.

I barely soak mine.

The chirpier the better :twisted:

[Pgraves]

Try the "white paper" treatment to flatten it out.

My experience is that this method with high grit sand paper sparingly used to balance or soften as needed, is a near cure-all. After years of all the usual annoyances, reeds are lasting a very long time and playing dependably. Seriously. I can hardly believe it. Joe Allard casually told me about this and I ignored it for years. Few months ago I remembered and tried it.

Check out the swelling area in the bottom of the reed where it sits above the the window, this gets shifted when the reed is replaced and doesn't fit the facing. The white paper treatment flattens it, fixes that and some other variables. No mumbo jumbo, makes mechanical sense to fix the irregular swelling in the fibers that distorts the "facing" of the reed. Flat table on a mouthpiece is a good thing, so having a flat reed isn't a leap. Can also rub down the top to seal it, which seems to help them last longer.

Soak them perhaps, but flatten the reed with the whitepaper treatment often.
It removes no material, just makes it play.

[JohnGalt]

Waterlogging shouldnt pose that kind of problem. As a matter of fact waterlogging shouldnt pose ANY problem ... probably if this is a relatively new reed that is seizing up on you on say the second or third playing session, then it is probably simply becoming broken in and the cane is becoming warped(from initial moisture absorbtion/drying out-expanding/contracting etc) and not creating a proper seal on the mouthpiece facing. It could still be a good reed that needs minor adjustment. Try lightly sanding th bottom(flat side) of the reed on 600-1000 grit sandpaper to sensure that the "table" of the mouthpiece will be interacting with a truly "flat" reed.
On a side note ... the vast majority of the reed problems people inquire about on this site are due to insufficient "selecting", "breaking in" or "curing" of their reeds.

[John Tenor]

Thank you guys for your helpful answers. I always soak the reed for hours and in fact I soaked these for less time this time. thety have played well before. Is it really possible to waterlog a reed? Did I just not wipe them enough after the soaking? Could atmosphere play a part?

[frankeric]

Ok, what is the white paper treatment?
frank

[Pgraves]

Ok, what is the white paper treatment?
frank

Written up in another thread
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=112881

Advantage of this over similar treatments is that it doesn't seem to remove an material from the reed. So, you can do it to a reed as many times as needed without gradually destroying it as would happen with sand paper. After playing to undo the the effects of moisture swelling, and get it into a good flat state to dry into.

[Steve J.]

Not waterlogged. Soaking does little harm.

The back flat part of the reed is warped. Remove the high area. Sealing the pores (paper or whatever) will help.

[LeftySaxDude]

You can get 2000 grit sandpaper from Autozone. It makes the back of the reed feel almost like glass. I bet there's even finer grit sandpaper out there, perhaps at a jewelry supply store? I know that's how they used to polish fine metals back in the day before buffing wheels. They would start with lower grit, and keep working their way up to extremely fine grit, in stages.

[Rex]

Presuming everything else in your playing is the same, the reed is too soft from over-soaking. You want your reeds to be predictable, stable, and long-lasting, right? Besides selection and adjustment, they need to be smoothed and sealed -- I do this on the top and bottom, even the butt of the reed. Just use your finger on the top face of the reed; sand the bottom (VERY carefully, and stay away from the tip) and the butt end with the finest grit you've got. The reed changes and warps too much with all that soaking and all of those soak-dry cycles. Contaminants -- minerals from your saliva -- work their way into an unsealed reed faster and ruin it over time. Soaking obviously changes the response/playability/playing quality of the reed, but more is not necessarily better -- you need just the right amount.

The reed can bulge in the window area -- the 'paper treatment' sounds like a good idea, a massage instead of removing the material (could sanding actually make it concave on the back after it dries out?). I don't usually play on the same reed that long or that wet to see that though.

[andre251]

make sure the reed if warped at all is sanded lightly so that the bottom is flat.
You only have to soak your reed until the tip becomes flat by itself!
Dont flatten your reed against a mouthpiece or table or anything when it is wet, that does not help. It APPEARS that it is better, but does not help. Just soak the reed for as long as you need to so that it gets a flat tip naturally. This usually take less then 2 minutes for newer reeds, but the older the reed gets, the longer it will need to soak. The longest I have had to soak a reed is 10 minutes. 5-7 minutes should do the trick on a reed within 2 months old.

[JohnGalt]

Emery paper is also like 1500-2000 grit sandpaper.

[Pgraves]

You can get 2000 grit sandpaper from Autozone. It makes the back of the reed feel almost like glass. I bet there's even finer grit sandpaper out there, perhaps at a jewelry supply store?

Nice suggestion.
But, is there sand paper that is less abrasive than white paper?
I think that the heat from the friction and required pressure applied using the white paper method flattens the reed and makes it glassy with least material removed.

[Steve J.]

Use a reed knife (flat blade) or a body file (showing my age on that second choice - but I saw recently resurrected for reed use not auto's).

You want to remove the warped high spot on the reed to make it flat. You will not make the reed softer by removing this material. Bad reeds need this more often. Consider another reed out of the box if this occurs quickly. Good reeds get to this point after numerous hours.

Sandpaper fine grit sealing is good but a whole different issue than the thread question. - A good thing but has no relation to "reed seizing up".

re fine grit: non issue! Buy the smallest grit at the hardware store (600 my experience) and sand the paper against itself. - stickier than white paper and as fine as you grind it. Polishing the reed helps response and reed longevity only. It does not prevent the warpage issue.

[patchmo]

I suck mine for a second.I'm not touchin' this with a 30 foot pole!:D
Try a reed defibrilator:laughing:

[frankeric]

Thanks Pgraves, I've been canning my Rico Royals box after box for a year. I thought I was only getting about 60% good reeds. When I read this "white paper" trick I had to try it. HS, it works! I had 4 reeds that I thought were bad, all, yes all now play well. 70 to 100 strokes will do the trick. Oh, the reeds need to be damp not dry.
Thanks for the tip
yam 875ex 4c hr

[cromerblues]

Just caught this thread and was wondering..............

Anyone had similar problem with ZZ's? I bought a box of 5 for Tenor 2.5's and one by one they play beautifully out of the wrapper then suddenly they stuff up completely. so much so I immediately look for a sticking key!! Why does this happen with an expensive read? more to the point, why does this happen with the whole box? Is there a cure? I think what irks most is that they play so well to start then ***!!!

Thoughts please

[Laurel Moore]

If you are looking to sand......

I came up with a great thing when I went to visit the finger nail section in our supermarket. You can buy this all-in-one nail file. One side is one (rough) the other side has 2 and 3 on it (fine, then finer) This works so well on my reeds. Number 3, is more of a buffer! Which means its incredibly fine, since it brings your nails to a buffed shine.

So, go visit your nail section all you men! Just to make us ladies laugh :D:D

[Rex]

Just caught this thread and was wondering..............

Anyone had similar problem with ZZ's? I bought a box of 5 for Tenor 2.5's and one by one they play beautifully out of the wrapper then suddenly they stuff up completely. so much so I immediately look for a sticking key!! Why does this happen with an expensive read? more to the point, why does this happen with the whole box? Is there a cure? I think what irks most is that they play so well to start then ***!!!

Thoughts please

I've tried ZZ but can't say I've observed this. However yours could be "unseasoned" (too green), 2.5 could be too soft for you or with your mouthpiece choice, they could be waterlogged, or they haven't been prepared/conditioned by you? ZZ and Java cuts have less "backbone" than some of their other cuts too.

[cromerblues]

thanks Rex

I have been using ZZ's on a Link HR 7 and Barone HR 8* Never had this problem with another make. It is really odd. Al lreeds usually work and just have their little idiosyncracies etc but these, one by one, 15/30 mins in "bang" stuffed completely. As I said what irritates is that they play so well out of the packet. Are they recoverable? Surely if the cane is too green then this would have been spotted and batch withdrawn.........unless...........I bought these from an Ebay seller, is it possible something is not quite as it should be here. Pack seems right, as does the individual sealed packs, but if there was a poor batch and someone got hold of them cheap that may explain it!

Any thoughts?

[Michael]

A reed that I had successfully used on a couple of gigs previously seized up on me after a few numbers at a gig yesterday. It started to get difficult to blow on the second number and then completely choked up and I couldn't get a sound from it. I had soaked it for an hour or so beforehand (shorter time than usual) but on this occasion I had not dried it with a cloth before using it.

I then tried a second reed that I had prepared in the same way (had also used it a couple of times before without a problem), and it did exactly the same thing. They were both Rico Jazz Select 3H from the latest box I had bought.

Luckily I had another older RJS 3H reed with me in case of difficulties and it played fine. It was dry since I had not soaked it in advance.

Could the first two reeds have been waterlogged?

Has anybody else experienced this?

My friend I've been making reeds for a little over a year so I can give you a definite answer. It is 100% because of your oversoaking. When you soak a reed that much the reed can swell A LOT. This swelling can produce the same effect as having a larger tip opening which increases resistance. So you play a .100 and with that swollen reed it becomes a .115. Of course it would be hard to play.

Check the video, gonna start a series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfDhaeePf6w