My New (old) Couesnon Alto arrived !!! [Archive]

JayeSF

08-02-2009, 06:04 AM

Just rec'd the horn formerly belonging to Shirish yesterday. I will post some pics tom'w morning, I spent most of today getting her into playing shape...she needed a few pads, some new springs, and a good cleaning...so I had her in pieces on my dining room table (complete with the requisite cursing when the odd pivot screw or rod would temporarily disappear, of course).

....hehehe...I like where they located the serial number...it's kinda like a treasure-hunt trying to find it :shock:

Anyway, just off the bat...I have to say I am surprised at the sound. It is a much edgier tone than I have heard from the other French horns I have (Noblet, Malerne, Pierret).

Again, without having played her very long, she is reminiscent of some older Martin altos I have had. A lot of bite, a lot of projection. A particularly killer upper register, also....may be the alto with the sweetest upper register I have (have to check it vs. the Noblet again, though).

But, with a tad more work, it'll be a smokin' horn....:D

styxywyx

08-02-2009, 08:38 AM

Hi Jaye,
I just bought one from ebay. I am liking mine too but haven't had time to do the needed yet - need to get some pads - but what I can play is making e very happy = like you a very pure upper reg using a rousseau.
Like you can't WAIT to get the bugs ironed out.
Congratulations on getting a goodun!

JayeSF

08-02-2009, 07:58 PM

Awesome, Styx. Please post some pics. Here's mine, serial #46XX

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/album.php?albumid=125&pictureid=708

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/album.php?albumid=125&pictureid=709

soybean

08-07-2009, 08:17 PM

Hey guys, congratulations on your new/old Couesnon altos. I love mine. Jay, yours looks to be a Monopole I.

Tryptykon

08-07-2009, 09:03 PM

I sorta wish I had mine back - s/n 12xxx

saintsday

08-07-2009, 09:17 PM

Congrats. Dave Hoskins mentioned these as one of the obscure undervalued horns on the saxchat site. I've been a fan since my first saxophone, a Couesnon tenor, in the early sixties.

Hey guys, congratulations on your new/old Couesnon altos. I love mine. Jay, yours looks to be a Monopole I.

Like so many things in Sax Land, terminology is sketchy at best. I couldn't really see the engraving very well on the pics, but the serial would lead me to agree. This is what I think of as a Monopole 1.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_1933-1.jpg
.

geauxsax

08-07-2009, 09:45 PM

Man that's a cool lookin' sax, Saints. Does it play as good as it looks?

sax-ony

08-07-2009, 10:22 PM

I had a Monopole II alto for a while: bought it from Uwe Steinmetz here on SOTW, and had it thoroughly gone over by my repairer. It had unmatched intonation and an incredibly direct and focused sound. I'd have kept it for the unique tonal qualities but I couldn't get used to the LH table keys, which seemed very primitive on such a sophisticated horn. The guy I sold it to on Ebay took a while to find the right mouthpiece and get used to it, but when he did he wrote to say that he was delighted.

I currently have a very late Monopole soprano, with MK VI style table keys. It is a seriously nice sax with a huge sound and - typically - great intonation.

saintsday

08-08-2009, 12:26 AM

JayeSF

08-08-2009, 02:41 AM

Well...I was hoping I could get lightning to strike twice and I pegged a Couesnon Tenor last week on eFlay. Got it yesterday, replaced a few pads, took out a few leaks, tweaked it here and there and got it playing shape.

Hmmm....it's not really half the horn which the alto is. This doesn't have the Monopole engraving, it just reads

Couesnon 405 Rue Lafayette Paris 52XX ...with a single star below... no florid engravings, no fancy stuff...very plain-looking horn.

Can someone enlighten me ? It is just not as sunstantial a horn...keywork is not as fine, body metal is lighter, although some of the detailing is the same and its toneholes are also rounded...

It sounds pretty good, though...

sax-ony

08-08-2009, 06:16 AM

I'd have kept it for the unique tonal qualities but I couldn't get used to the LH table keys, which seemed very primitive on such a sophisticated horn.

This is interesting. I like the LH table, likely because it was the first I ever played, but that doesn't explain a comment that a Selmer-addicted teacher/friend made to me. "If everyone's pinkies played this nicely Selmer wouldn't have needed to re-invent the pinky keys."

Was your Selmer-addicted teacher maybe just being hyperbolical about the fact that a non-Selmer table could do the job? Or did they really rate the Couesnon above other pre-Selmer tables?

I probably didn't give myself long enough to get used to my Couesnon. At the time, I felt I had too many horns (I go through this from time to time) and decided to keep just one obscure French alto! I kept a Beaugnier Fabrication Artistique, sold a Pierret Competition (LH table too cramped) and the Couesnon already mentioned. I had long ago sold a Dolnet Bel Air, which was much the easiest to let go.

When I lasted talked to Curt Altarac in January, he was moaning about the intonation on a Couesnon that he was overhauling.

Well, I've just had that Monopole II alto, and my soprano. As I recall, Uwe Steinmetz rated the alto for intonation, and my repairer was impressed as well. I shouldn't have used the word "typically" about Couesnons' good intonation - although that was an impression I had formed from reading around here.

How have you found the intonation?

saintsday

08-08-2009, 01:59 PM

This doesn't have the Monopole engraving, it just reads

Couesnon 405 Rue Lafayette Paris 52XX ...with a single star below... no florid engravings, no fancy stuff...very plain-looking horn.

Can someone enlighten me ? It is just not as sunstantial a horn...keywork is not as fine, body metal is lighter, although some of the detailing is the same and its toneholes are also rounded...

It sounds pretty good, though...

That would be 105 Rue Lafayette. It may be the same era as this one:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_3618-1-1.jpghttp://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_0899.jpg
I don't really understand the implied equation of heavy=good.
That would make a Cannonball a much better horn than any Selmer.

The earlier ones had a different address and you have to go way back or very late not to have the RTH.http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_2311-1.jpg

The tenor (first two shots) was a real eye opener for me when a friend was here over the winter for a tenor shoot out. With his Lawton, I liked him second best on it behind only my New Aristocrat.

Was your Selmer-addicted teacher maybe just being hyperbolical about the fact that a non-Selmer table could do the job? Or did they really rate the Couesnon above other pre-Selmer tables?

I probably didn't give myself long enough to get used to my Couesnon. At the time, I felt I had too many horns (I go through this from time to time) and decided to keep just one obscure French alto! I kept a Beaugnier Fabrication Artistique, sold a Pierret Competition (LH table too cramped) and the Couesnon already mentioned. I had long ago sold a Dolnet Bel Air, which was much the easiest to let go.

When I lasted talked to Curt Altarac in January, he was moaning about the intonation on a Couesnon that he was overhauling.

Well, I've just had that Monopole II alto, and my soprano. As I recall, Uwe Steinmetz rated the alto for intonation, and my repairer was impressed as well. I shouldn't have used the word "typically" about Couesnons' good intonation - although that was an impression I had formed from reading around here.

How have you found the intonation?

I agree about both the Pierret and the Dolnet, although Uwe says he's had some killer Dollys.

It wasn't just my teacher. When I took the first of mine to my tech, he commented that he would be comfortable gigging with a Couesnon. It was the strongest and most surprised reaction I've ever seen from him. He
plays VIs for A & T and a Martin curvy for sop.

I was really surprised when Curt made that comment. My experience has been that they are consistently good to great.

soybean

08-08-2009, 07:49 PM

Here's my experience from owning 3 Couesnon altos and 1 tenor. (All Monopole models from the 1940s and later.) The intonation on the altos was all great. Probably the equal or better of any alto I have owned or played including 875-ex, MkVI and S-1. Sound of the altos is very good but not as loud as modern altos like the Yamaha. However, this can be compensated somewhat with a more open mouthpiece. The exception to this is my oldest Monopole 1. It is louder and more resonant than the later models. I can't explain this except that maybe they used different metal for the body tube. I have used the Coues alto in combo settings with female vocalist and it's fine. If i was playing in a big band or rock band, i would bring the yamaha. The Monopole II had some small improvements including better octave key. The best improvement was that they moved the strap ring so the alto hangs correctly. This would be in the last few years of Couesnon. The strap ring had two holes. (I had the ring moved on my older horn).

The left hand table is outdated as you said, but no worse than many horns of the period and can be gotten used to. It's important to know that there is a lever underneath to link things so the G# is articulated or not. Most players leave the lever engaged, but it does create an awful lot of spring tension.

Perhaps Mr Alterac was complaining about the intonation on a tenor? The only Couesnon tenor i owned had pretty mediocre intonation. This really surprised and disappointed me and i ended up selling the horn. Maybe i just got a bad one. Saintsday loves his.

My tech says a lot of the L.A. studio players used Couesnon sopranos in the 1980s for recording sessions. I never played one. I do have a Monopole clarinet which is pretty darn good clarinet.

Couesnon saxophones may be "obscure" in the USA, but in France they were once the state of the art. Marcel Mule played Couesnon for at least 10 years before switching to Selmer. It's also interesting to note that couesnon made a few altos keyed up to high G and down to low A.

Couesnon did make other lines including student horns. Monopole was their top of the line.

sax-ony

08-08-2009, 10:30 PM

Thank you for a very informative post.

My tech says a lot of the L.A. studio players used Couesnon sopranos in the 1980s for recording sessions.

I wonder if they looked like this:

http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/sax-ony/Couesnon%20soprano/?albumview=grid

As you see from the case and the etching of the Couesnon logo, mine is pretty modern. It combines excellent intonation with a really huge sound. It has a high F# key. The tone holes are unusual and must have been expensive to produce: they are preformed, with a thickened, round outer rim (not a roll) and then silver-soldered onto the body.

Anyone come across another like it?

saintsday

08-08-2009, 11:12 PM

Sax-ony, I had a silver tenor a few years ago with that style logo. It also had a very different bell to body brace than any other Couesnon I've seen. It got sold right after I had it overhauled and the guy who bought it sent me this email.

" John,
I bought the silver plated Couesnon tenor from you a short time ago. I
really love the horn.
I have made some research findings for what they are worth. In our
correspondence, you mentioned that it had unique engraving for a Couesnon.
I just recently found where the engraving pattern may have been used on
other saxes. On saxpics site, the Malernes have the same pattern with only
very small changes. I also think that this horn was a Buffet stencil. It
looks like Couesnon, in the later years, used many other French companies
to supply saxophone parts and labor. I guess this made it easier for them
to focus on flugle horns. I hope that this insite into Couesnon
manufacturing will be of use.
Thanks for a great horn. I found a couple very small leaks and now the
horn subtones with ease and it is the easiest horn I own to hit altissimo
notes."

JayeSF

08-09-2009, 01:32 AM

That would be 105 Rue Lafayette. It may be the same era as this one:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_3618-1-1.jpghttp://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_0899.jpg
I don't really understand the implied equation of heavy=good.
That would make a Cannonball a much better horn than any Selmer.

Yes, it looks like this pic. And No...I don't believe I was saying...implied or otherwise... that somehow because it's light, it's bad. For example, I was surprised at the weight of a Conn 10M I recently acquired, too. But that said nothing as to it's quality.
But...having had the Monopole alto around for a week and really digging it, in respect to how it is constructed...it is a very, very well detailed and assembled horn. This Tenor arrived and it is ....less so. Thinner body metal, keywork not as finely machined....just doesn't feel as good under the fingers (action adjustment aside). Not BAD by any means, it can be a decent player with some regulating, I suspect...but certainly not as finely made an instrument as the Monopole.

I probably didn't give myself long enough to get used to my Couesnon. At the time, I felt I had too many horns (I go through this from time to time) and decided to keep just one obscure French alto! I kept a Beaugnier Fabrication Artistique, sold a Pierret Competition (LH table too cramped) and the Couesnon already mentioned. I had long ago sold a Dolnet Bel Air, which was much the easiest to let go.

Personally the BelAir I have is a very solid player...I would not be inclined to get rid of it although some Dolnets have a rep for poor intonation. I really like my Dolnet. The intonation is quite good enuff to work with, but the sound is really, really well-balanced....sonically, it's like a nice middle ground between an old American tenor and an old French one....
I have had a couple of Pierret Olds Parisians (matter of fact an old Bari is on its way to me)...they were also pretty good, so I have found Pierrets to be quite respectable, too...but this Couesnon Monopole is significantly better, overall .

Again, I was just wondering if the Monopoles were further dow the evolutionary line of Couesnon horns...i.e. is the Lafayette just an older, simpler horn....or whether the Lafayette was just a second-line horn to begin with...? Sounds like maybe the latter was the case, per Soy's reply. The Monopoles were the top line stuff...maybe this tenor, not so...

saintsday

08-09-2009, 03:53 AM

The addresses are simply a dividing line from when they moved their operations some time in the 30s.

I've seen a model list from early on and the models had names like Opera, Standard, etc.

I wasn't aware that they ever made a student line of saxophone. If I spoke French I would contact the remnants of the company with a whole bunch of questions. http://www.pgm-couesnon.com/

Here is a little more info: http://www.smrinc.net/Sound%20Clips/JScheffler/Docs/Couesnon%20Company%20Information.pdf

JayeSF

08-09-2009, 07:28 AM

Good stuff, Saints'...you have alot of info on these. I will post a pic of the Tenor tom'w. I also am gonna get to work on the final leaks on this one, because I really wanna check out the intonation up and down and see where it falls. Cannot play her top to bottom as she came to me....

As I mentioned, it's got a nice enough tone...it's fairly wide sounding and it has a nice balance of bottom and bite...but it just seems a tad....spare, I guess..when compared to the Monopole.

Is there a serial # chart for this company, BTW ?????

saintsday

08-09-2009, 01:50 PM

it just seems a tad....spare, I guess..when compared to the Monopole.

Is there a serial # chart for this company, BTW ?????

The serial number records were burned in the factory fire in 1969. Serials can be really confusing. I have a very old sop with a serial in the 2x,xxx
range and much newer ones with serials 2,xxx.

I understand your comment about being on the spare side. That's how I perceived the tenor in the picture until I heard my friend with his Lawton on it.

Just to clear up some possible confusion, the Monopole designation goes way back. It is the Conservatory designation that is more recent.

Here is some more info:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?p=622087&posted=1#post622087

http://www.cairn.info/article.php?ID_REVUE=LMS&ID_NUMPUBLIE=LMS_199&ID_ARTICLE=LMS_199_0011

I have a five page article about Couesnon history that I can email to anyone who emails me.

warp x

08-09-2009, 02:43 PM

I've been wanting to get a tenor as a backup for the Leblanc. Did they make the tenors with high G too?

soybean

08-09-2009, 07:49 PM

soybean

08-09-2009, 08:10 PM

As you see from the case and the etching of the Couesnon logo, mine is pretty modern. It combines excellent intonation with a really huge sound. It has a high F# key. The tone holes are unusual and must have been expensive to produce: they are preformed, with a thickened, round outer rim (not a roll) and then silver-soldered onto the body.

Sax-ony, I had a silver tenor a few years ago with that style logo. It also had a very different bell to body brace than any other Couesnon I've seen. It got sold right after I had it overhauled and the guy who bought it sent me this email.

"John, I bought the silver plated Couesnon tenor from you a short time ago. …you mentioned that it had unique engraving for a Couesnon. I just recently found where the engraving pattern may have been used on other saxes. On saxpics site, the Malernes have the same pattern with only very small changes. I also think that this horn was a Buffet stencil. It looks like Couesnon, in the later years, used many other French companies
to supply saxophone parts and labor. I guess this made it easier for them
to focus on fluglehorns."These two posts taken together are very interesting. I do agree that your soprano is more modern. But it's mysterious. Saintsday's bell to body brace information and the same logo being on a Malerne makes me think that your soprano was built by some other company. However, your report of excellent intonation and high F# leads me to believe the soprano could have been designed by someone at Couesnon and built somewhere else. It could also be a Buffet horn as was stated, but would Buffet make tone holes like that? Unlikely. But Couesnon, believed strongly in rolled tone-holes and put them on all the Monopole saxes. Could your soprano and Saintsday's tenor be "ghost horns"? -saxes made after the Couesnon fire?

sax-ony

08-09-2009, 09:10 PM

...your report of excellent intonation and high F# leads me to believe the soprano could have been designed by someone at Couesnon and built somewhere else.

I'm confident it is a Couesnon design and uses Couesnon parts. As to who actually put it together, who can say? The side keys have that sort of squared-off Couesnon feel to the edges, and the LH thumb rest and octave lever are just like my Monopole II alto.

The LH table keys are odd: they have a Couesnon switchable G# lever underneath, but clearly it has never been functional: it is just factory-soldered in one position. I've seen another soprano with the distinctive Couesnon three-in-a-row table, but mine has this Selmerish affair. And then there are the extraordinary tone holes....

saintsday

08-09-2009, 10:04 PM

I wasn't aware that they ever made a student line of saxophone.Well, I could be wrong and please correct me if i am, but it was my understanding that any Couesnon without the Monopole designation (and I'm referring to horns made after WWII) were student horns. That is not to say that these were not very fine and possibly as good as the Monopole branded horns. The word Conservatoire was later added to the Monopole model. This has caused people to believe these are also student horns. However, the Conservatoire in question was an extremely tough school for virtuosos… sort of like Julliard here only more so for saxophonists, since France was the unquestioned center of classical saxophone development at the time.

This is just my understanding and interpretation. Unfortunately, the real Couesnon expert on this board no longer is in France and no longer posts here.

If you are referring to Jean Monange, he died about a year ago or so.

I'm not sure that I've ever seen a post WWII horn without the Monopole designation, although I have several older ones without it.

I think that you are exactly right about the conservatory designation. Couesnon's original market was largely military brass bands from around the time of Adolph Sax until somewhere around the time that the classical market emerged and Marcel Mule played Couesnons. The conservatory designation was meant to recapture the classical market. My first Couesnon in the early 60s was bought with help from Cleveland Orchestra members.

I've been wanting to get a tenor as a backup for the Leblanc. Did they make the tenors with high G too?

I've only heard of two altos with the G. The F# is actually pretty rare. I've had 30 or 40 of these and only one has the F#. The horn that Jean Monange posted pictures of with the high G was definitely an alto.

warp x

08-10-2009, 07:20 AM

Thanks Saints. What's your general experience with the tenors?

sax-ony

08-10-2009, 07:41 AM

Self-deleted.

saintsday

08-10-2009, 01:12 PM

I've had less than 10 tenors, including my very first saxophone which was over 45 years ago. Two of them are here waiting for overdue overhauls. The one that I posted the buyer's feedback about is hard for me to count since it was so different from the others.

That said, with the Lawton the one in the pictures sounded great to me with what both my friend and I thought of as a Coltrane/Selmer vibe. That's an older one with a fresh overhaul using white kangaroo with Noyeks. These have very shallow key cups and I went with those pads because I liked the look and the pads fit well. I'm not sure that I would buy roos for one again since I perceive that they are less forgiving of tone hole imperfections. I had one that wanted to burble on the low end, but it never got a complete overhaul.

I guess that the bottom line is that I still think that the tenors can be as good as the altos and sops. My tech is a magician with making horns play well with a pretty basic play conditioning, but I am now figuring a complete overhaul when I buy a Couesnon tenor.

warp x

08-10-2009, 02:23 PM

Thanks again!

JayeSF

08-10-2009, 06:51 PM

Well, I can now get most of the notes to speak on this Tenor...and yeah, she is sounding pretty good.

Am gonna replace 3 pads (low C, top C, and the F-pad are too leaky and shot to solve just by key adjusting) so in a couple of days she should play up and down.

It does have a rich tone, however. Haven't decided on the ergos yet...

soybean

08-10-2009, 08:28 PM

These have very shallow key cups…Yes, that is something to be aware of if you intend on having an older Couesnon re-padded. Make sure your tech has done a few re-pads on older horns with shallow cups. He can't simply use the same pads he uses for modern horns. My guy had to order these special.

by the way, it's great to see some activity here in the Couesnon section.

warp x

08-10-2009, 08:37 PM

There's one for sale here (http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/couesnon_monopole/) at €700 or so. I'll go test it when I have some spare cash.

soybean

08-10-2009, 08:40 PM

saintsday

08-10-2009, 09:59 PM

There's one for sale here (http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/couesnon_monopole/) at €700 or so. I'll go test it when I have some spare cash.The neck doesn't look correct. Possible replacement or maybe only the brace was changed.

Exactly. I would suspect a brace added since it would be really tough to find a double socket that would fit correctly. Here is a correct neck.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_5831.jpg

NissanMarkVII

08-10-2009, 10:29 PM

Definately a brace change. The solder on these comes loose quite often, and the brace could have been lost.

warp x

08-10-2009, 10:38 PM

I hadn't even looked at the neck yet! Anyhow, I don't care much for original condition, as long as it plays well.

EDIT: Saints, you need to clean that macbook!

soybean

08-30-2009, 09:01 PM

JaySF, how's the horn working out?

JayeSF

09-05-2009, 02:31 AM

All leaks are gone, and she is blowing very nicely. I do have to say (again) that her looks and weight were deceptive...nice big sound, not American-tenor like because there's more roundness and ...panache...to the tone than that.

But like the Alto I bought recently from Shirish...I was surprised at the nice bite it has in the mid and upper...more so than the other French tenors I have (Malerne, Dolnet, Beaugnier).

Ergos are neither here nor there. I have played less comfortable horns, and more comfortable. No problems in that dept, though...just different.

Intonation seems pretty good too, nothing dramatically out of whack.

All in all, a nice, balanced big-sounding Tenor...