Reeds affecting intonation

[Pete Thomas]

Every once in a while, I come across a reed which requires me to quite radically change the mouthpiece position on the neck due to different pitch.

It's very rare, I usually leave the mouthpiece ion the same place year in and year out, but a couple of times I have come across this, I wonder if anyone else has or can explain.

e.g just a bog standard Rico alto reed suddenly plays very sharp. I pull the mouthpiece off about 1/8th inch (quite radical for an alto) in order to get it reasonably in tune. But I notice that doing this causes the intonation overall a bit harder to control, as you might expect if the tube length is not optimal.

It makes me wonder that if there are occasionally reeds like this, there could be a much more common occurrence of reeds that are just very slightly "out of tune" and we never notice due to the normal compensation of playing, or maybe just thing we are having off day or better still, blame the bass player. A bit worrying really.

[saxomophone]

I made a comment about this topic several years ago on another site and a certain wild-haired saxophone type person from south of the Mason-Dixon Line assured me that reeds have absolutely no effect on intonation and pretty much that I was an idiot for saying so.

That being said, I find the hardness of the reed can effect intonation--hard reeds playing sharper or soft reeds playing flat particularly in the upper register, but I havn't ruled out that it could be me and not the reed. Usually if I do have a reed that does play drastically one way or the other it is either too soft or too hard.

I've heard oboe players make comments about reeds playing in tune or not but they have many more variables than we do.

It makes sence to me but I have no idea of the physics behind it.

[Pete Thomas]

I made a comment about this topic several years ago on another site and a certain wild-haired saxophone type person from south of the Mason-Dixon Line assured me that reeds have absolutely no effect on intonation and pretty much that I was an idiot for saying so.


Well, now you know you are not alone. Either we are both idiots or the mystery wild haired person is.

[hornstar]

Never, it must be your setup. I'm sure you need to buy another mouthpiece, maybe another horn. ;)

Seriously, I can't count the times over the years that I thought it was me, the mpc, or the horn, and it turned out to be the reed. Sometimes it's a pitch issue, or only certain notes, or the altissimo just not firing well. Just try a different reed.

[Lament]

I have also found that different strength, and cut, reeds have an impact on my intonation. That includes reeds out of the same box. Some, with a little work, can be usable but some just get canned. I guess that makes three of us.

[musicforemotion]

I find the hardness of the reed can effect intonation--hard reeds playing sharper or soft reeds playing flat particularly in the upper register.

I have found the same to be true in my experience. Also, it could be the player physically compensating for the hardness of the reed. We tend to bite more on a harder reed to get a better sound out, but have to play looser on a soft reed to prevent from closing off the space between the reed and mouthpiece. I know that this isn't the only thing that accounts for a reed playing out of tune, but I think it's certainly part of it.

James

[hakukani]

Every once in a while, I come across a reed which requires me to quite radically change the mouthpiece position on the neck due to different pitch.

It's very rare, I usually leave the mouthpiece ion the same place year in and year out, but a couple of times I have come across this, I wonder if anyone else has or can explain.

e.g just a bog standard Rico alto reed suddenly plays very sharp. I pull the mouthpiece off about 1/8th inch (quite radical for an alto) in order to get it reasonably in tune. But I notice that doing this causes the intonation overall a bit harder to control, as you might expect if the tube length is not optimal.

It makes me wonder that if there are occasionally reeds like this, there could be a much more common occurrence of reeds that are just very slightly "out of tune" and we never notice due to the normal compensation of playing, or maybe just thing we are having off day or better still, blame the bass player. A bit worrying really.

I've had reeds like this. I call them 'bad reeds', and immediately break them and throw them away.

I've always suspected (with no evidence, admittedly), that the reed hasn't got enough material in the 'heart' section.

[cpete]

Anyone thats ever tuned a Wurlitzer electric piano with solder and a file (painfully) realizes that more reed mass equals lower pitch especially toward the end of the reed, thus lowering the natural resonance of that particular reed (and the inverse of course) Denser cane equals more mass as well. Simple physics in play, although I'm certain someone can and will come along and "overcomplexitize" this issue :D And yes it is the air inside the cone that is in motion, but certainly reed mass and physics will have an effect on pitch to some degree.

[gary]

The only times I've really noticed this is when a reed just gets a little too old and weak, and then the upper register gets flabby (and flat). Anyway . . .

If Pete says it's so, it's so!

[Pete Thomas]

I have also found that different strength, and cut, reeds have an impact on my intonation.

True, but I'm actually talking about reeds that appear to have the same strength. I agree slightly softer reeds may tune a bit differently, but in this case I'm talking about reeds that are no softer as far as I can tell, and the tuning is way, way, way different - more than you might get from just a reed being softer. Or harder.

[milandro]

I have been battling this very same thing lately.

The thing is that I haven't been playing for a while and that I took to using a relatively open mouthpiece just before I started playing less.

After this long period of semi-inactivity it has been a bummer to go back to play that mouthpiece because if I use a soft reed I tend to be sharper than I would want to be and with a harder reed it is very hard to play the lower notes. In other words, yes, I believe that softer reeds are conducive to sharper playing and in fact this is the reason why as a beginner one should proceed to a harder reed as soon as possible in order not acquire a too tight embouchure.

I'm working on rebuilding some chops

[1saxman]

Well, I have to say that I haven't noticed this phenomenon in many decades of playing, but perhaps I'm simply accepting the variations in reeds. Tuning of the saxophone is very variable depending on temperature, but if I ever had to adjust the mouthpiece after changing reeds I don't remember it. That is possibly because the only reeds I carry in the case are known good reeds, so they are pretty consistent.
You can hardly expect any reed to play like any other, so you could save yourself some aggravation by either discarding or modifying reeds that don't meet your expectations. I don't 'tune' before playing. Since the advent of electronic instruments that are always in tune, I find that my mouthpiece always goes to the same position on the cork, so I just start there. If I find myself straining up to pitch, I'll go in a bit, and out if I start to hear too much sharpness.
Milandro; you are obviously 'biting' and driving the soft reed sharp. Learn to relax your jaw and stop biting on the beak of the mouthpiece. The sax is an instrument that you have to play in tune - mouthpiece position is useful in finding the center of a range of intonation extremes, making it physically easier to play in tune. A great exercise is to use a clamp-on tuner and practice bending notes up and down. This will really work your chops as well as your ears and show you where that 'center' is on your horn.

[milandro]

as I said myself , I am aware of the fact that a tight embouchure is the result of fighting against the loss of " power" of my lips caused by not having played for a while.

[jbtsax]

After this long period of semi-inactivity it has been a bummer to go back to play that mouthpiece because if I use a soft reed I tend to be sharper than I would want to be and with a harder reed it is very hard to play the lower notes. In other words, yes, I believe that softer reeds are conducive to sharper playing and in fact this is the reason why as a beginner one should proceed to a harder reed as soon as possible in order not acquire a too tight embouchure.

I'm working on rebuilding some chops
For me the opposite is true. A softer reed lets me relax the embouchure and open the teeth more and the pitch stays down. When I go to a reed too stiff for my embouchure strength I am forced to bite down more causing the pitch to go sharp.

Stiffer reeds play in the high register better because they vibrate more easily at the higher frequencies. Conversely softer reeds play more responsively in the lower register, but sound thin and buzzy in the upper register.

Especially on clarinet which plays at the top of its pitch, if the high register is flat, one should switch to a harder reed to compensate.

John

[milandro]

^interesting I will try that maybe I am seeing the things wrong, thanks!

[Laurel Moore]

I for one am really pleased to hear this from the pros.

I am usually happily playing away on my reed. Sometimes exhilirated when it's all swaning along so well.
Then, I change to a new reed!! This has happened to be yesterday. And it's a really plane crash, in contrast.

Being a beginner, I always think it has to be me at fault!! So, I hang on in there, trying and trying in vain to capture what I lost.
So, thanks for the reassurance ;)

[harmonizerNJ]

When I test a new reed, that testing includes seeing how responsive it seems at the top (how does that front-F E3 and F#3 feel?), as well as the rest of the horn. It is possible that I may have found reeds that had this issue Pete described, but that I just thought the reed did not feel right, without getting into the details of what exactly was wrong with the reed.

[Gregg W. Jackson]

... I'm actually talking about reeds that appear to have the same strength.

If two reeds appear to have the same strength but have different intonation characteristics, there may be another factor. It could be the contour of the reed, the relative density of various parts of the reed, or something more esoteric.

I would, as an earlier poster suggests, toss the reed. Or, if I were a reed worker, I'd work on it.

[1saxman]

I have thrown away tons of reeds because I never learned to work on them. What I always do is find a brand/strength that seems to offer more playable reeds per box, and stay with that. I played Rico Royal in the '80s until Rico Jazz Select came out. I have been playing these (3S, unfiled) ever since. More importantly is how you keep/store/maintain the reeds you are currently using, and how you gradually 'bring in' new ones as they wear out. I have used LaVoz Reedguards ever since they came out. The process is simple, and if you do this with no exceptions, it will work. Never soak a reed in anything. Take four new reeds, moisten them in your mouth and put them in the Reedguard. After about an hour, begin testing the reeds by gently playing them all. With a laundry pen, make some mark on the bark of each to indicate your preferences. Put them back in the Reedguard. Another Reed guard should hold two or four proven good reeds for performance. Always remove the reed and put it in the Reedguard after playing unless you're going to be playing again inside an hour or so. Every week, take the performance reeds out one at a time and with a soft toothbrush scrub them with drugstore hydrogen peroxide all over. Put them back in the Reedguard. About an hour before playing, take them out and moisten in your mouth then put them back. They'll be ready to play when you need them, and if you have to make a quick reed change they'll be ready. Meanwhile, keep working on the new ones until you're ready to put one or more of them into the performance Reedguard. I particularly enjoy changing reeds at break time on a hot gig to get one that's a little newer and more lively - it's like coming out with a better mouthpiece or something. In the process, you will find plenty of 'turkeys' that you are not going to be able to use like they are, but you will also find many 'adequate' ones and a few 'screamers'! Generally, new reeds break in and get easier to play over a few cycles. The hydrogen peroxide is the best thing I have tried to clean/maintain cane reeds. I tried alcohol once and it failed miserably. I gig three or four times a month and can routinely keep reeds in circulation for months. So, that's the whole story. Cane reeds are individuals and must be evaluated and cared for as such. You can never expect to just wet a new reed and stick it on and play, although it does happen. You have to develop groups, or 'flights' of reeds that are all playable and work them in as above. It's very rewarding to experience a reed 'coming in' over a week or two until you finally put it on the 'first team' :)

[Mal 2]

As well as reeds varying from one to the next, they are sensitive to the weather. Hot and humid makes them behave softer, cold and dry makes them chirpy, and other various combinations. Naturally these temperature and humidity variations also affect the intonation of the horn apart from the reed. Stack it all up and sometimes you have an unmanageable mess.

I used to have to keep a couple "prime" reeds, and at least one that was a little too hard and another that was a little too soft -- at least under normal conditions. Then when I ran into one of those weather-induced "bad reed days", I had a backup plan.

I no longer do this because I have switched completely to synthetic reeds. They're all going to be oblivious to humidity, and the ones I've tried are mostly uncaring about temperature as well. The horn is still out of tune if it's too hot or too cold, but the reed is no longer adding to the problem. I also don't have to work them in. The majority of them play anywhere from "good" to "superb" straight out of the box, and the occasional one requires a little adjustment with some extremely fine wet-dry sandpaper. If too soft I can relegate it to a more open mouthpiece or let it hang over the tip of the mouthpiece.

Admittedly my reed prep procedures were a bit scattered -- I'd tear open a new box, soak all five or ten of them at once, and play each one for a minute or so until I could categorize it. Some were "good as is" (meaning a little bit too hard so they could break in -- sadly only about 30% of them), others were a simple "too hard" or "too soft" (shave or clip as necessary), and a few had problems that were harder to identify. Sometimes I could figure those out and sometimes I couldn't. I'd usually get seven I could actually use out of a box of ten, but only three or four I actually LIKED.

With Fibracells (of which I've now had about a dozen), I've had two that were too soft because I didn't yet know what I needed, one that was too soft in spite of being called a #3 1/2, and all the others were plus-or-minus a quarter strength of where they should be. Sure, failure is expensive at $14 a pop plus shipping, but they last so long it has been a good move. This is both in terms of dollars per hour of playing, and in time NOT spent breaking them in. Every minute I'm NOT fiddling with a reed is one minute I can be practicing or performing instead.

[saxomophone]

Laurel---1saxman's advice on rotating reeds will get rid of that 'out with the old in with the new' problem with your old reed dying and the new one being too hard to play on.

I don't get as elaborate as he does, but I keep 4 reeds in circulation for each horn. I use them sequentially and change reeds during practice breaks. When one starts to go I put a new one in rotation. That way you always have reeds that you know work as well as ones that you are breaking in.

I think it makes the reeds last a lot longer as well but I also keep mine damp at all times(that's a whole other topic).

[Ivan Meyer Brasil]

I already use the Fibracell reeds 19 years ago. I am in love with fibracell. Read this commentary is interesting because it speaks of fibracell and its compatibility with the mouthpiece.
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=117827

Thanks
Ivan Meyer

[skippy]

... I'm actually talking about reeds that appear to have the same strength.

If two reeds appear to have the same strength but have different intonation characteristics, there may be another factor. It could be the contour of the reed, the relative density of various parts of the reed, or something more esoteric.
A box of reeds is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're gonna get. And that's all I have to say about that.

[Pete Thomas]

Much as I find all this very interesting, it's drifting off the original topic:

I have played thousands and thousands of reeds in over 35 years, and yes of course they are all slightly different. I'm not actually talking about inconsistency or softer reeds playing different or having different intonation tendencies to hard reeds.

I can put on a number 1.5 reed and its more or less the same.

Out of those thousands I have had, only two which have the problem I'm referring to, which is a very large difference in intonation, not the usual difference you expect from different reeds or strengths.

Anyone else had this?

[1saxman]

No, nobody else had had it because it doesn't exist.

[Pete Thomas]

No, nobody else had had it because it doesn't exist.

So how would you explain my experiences? :scratch:

[Doc Frazier]

It does exist! Since our shop deals with the restoration of many fine vintage horns,I will try to test the horn after building it with the original mouthpiece (or as close as possible if I don't have the original) and have found that various brands of MODERN reeds will affect intonation.

I have had mouthpieces refaced by several fine techs on this forum and most of them want to know what brand and strength reed is used. A piece that I have here was refaced and a Fibracell recommended plays great and in tune with a Fibracell. Put on a ZZ of the same strength and it takes more effort to play in tune. I've tried almost a whole box of ZZ's on this piece and it varies even between reeds out of the same box!

The most consistent wood reed that I have found so far is Rico Jazz Select. Your mileage may vary. The ONLY problem I have had with them is 1 split reed out of the box. I even have a decent selection of steril (new, unused)
vintage reeds here that I use as test pieces and they affect intonation less than the modern reeds.





No, nobody else had had it because it doesn't exist.

[Turnaround]

The only times I've really noticed this is when a reed just gets a little too old and weak, and then the upper register gets flabby (and flat). Anyway . . .



I just dealt with this again today.

This is what I found as well. I play reeds till they split though. So I'm dealing with this quite often. It's nice to finally swap out the reeds and play in tune. :shock:

I put on a new reed if I'm going to be recording and get it broken in FYI.

I've also found there are a few reeds that seemed softer than normal for the box and they seem to play out of tune. More likely that I'm used to the particular strength and then this softer reed pops up, they don't play as expected and I compensate.

[jthole]

I have also found that different strength, and cut, reeds have an impact on my intonation.

True, but I'm actually talking about reeds that appear to have the same strength. I agree slightly softer reeds may tune a bit differently, but in this case I'm talking about reeds that are no softer as far as I can tell, and the tuning is way, way, way different - more than you might get from just a reed being softer. Or harder.

Yes, for me it is extremely noticable when switching to Fibracell reeds. They don't feel harder to me than Vandoren reeds, but I definitely play flatter on Fibracell reeds. With all of them.

[old999]

That being said, I find the hardness of the reed can effect intonation--hard reeds playing sharper or soft reeds playing flat particularly in the upper register, but I havn't ruled out that it could be me and not the reed. Usually if I do have a reed that does play drastically one way or the other it is either too soft or too hard.

I've heard oboe players make comments about reeds playing in tune or not but they have many more variables than we do.

It makes sence to me but I have no idea of the physics behind it.

Right on! I've been playing with Legere Studio cut 2-1/2 reeds for over two years now. I've been having trouble with them collapsing when I try to increase volume. I finally went to the 2-3/4 (I had been avoiding it because of the increased resistance) and it was like playing a new instrument. Seriously. No more collapsing. The upper A/Ab and B/Bb at long last sound in tune and the instrument as a whole has much more punch. Starting a low note softly is less easy, but in time that will come around as it did with the 2-1/2.

This is not a case of one reed being overworked and finally wearing out. I rotate 4 different 2-1/2 reeds. Now I'll have to stock up on 2-3/4 reeds.

[Michael]

I got to talk to a bassoonist who makes a living selling reeds, and although a double reed is very different, the concept of equilibrium in a reed remains. In a bassoon reed, the part that determines intonation is the channel(s). The channels are the part that on your website, says the shave down to make a reed softer (sorry, no easier way to describe it). Now this will make your reed softer, so I don't know what to say there, but again, equilibrium, and if there's a part that is uneven, you'll have to do shaving. Also keep in mind that when reeds are cut, they are cut with very precise machinery, the only thing is that cane may be denser or less dense in different parts. Cane is sorted based on density, and that's how some cane is harder and thus all reeds of the same type are the same cut. This means that you may have to make the reed appear uneven, when you are making it even in terms of mass

[marton]

Hmm, the only problems I have with reeds is when I play a Vandoren, over my usual RR's. I get all regretful.

[Kini]

I remember from a thread a couple years ago, when I inquired something about bari mouthpieces, one of our professor members stated that he preferred smaller tips on bari, in order to use harder reeds because the softer ones affected intonation. In this case it was overall intonation, ie weeker reeds were so flat that you couldnt push the mouthpiece in enough.

[nitrosax]

I've noticed a big difference in tuning with the current Link STM pieces...I used to have a 7* and if my reed was too soft, the piece would blow flat...big chamber...So, playing in big band, where i had to blow loud over other instrument presented a challenge...I'll blow the piece flat-even if I pushed all the way in...So, I navigated toward the smaller chamber pieces so I'd have something to work with pitch-wise...the Vandoren V16 rubber pieces are good examples of this...the piece has more room to play sharp if I need it...hard to explain but i'd rather be on the high side and blow down the pitch than be pushed all the way in and need to play higher to match the trumpets and not have anywhere to go...

Cheers,
R