jumbo java t45 on Aristocrat?

[lhoover]

Has anyone tried this combo? I think I remember someone saying that small chamber mp's don't work to well on vintage Aristocrats. Thoughts?

[paulwl]

It really depends on the mouthpiece. The advice traces back to classical players without a lot of experience or interest in different mpc designs.

[Mike W]

My Jumbo Java T45 works just fine on my 1943 aristrocrat tenor. So do my Dukoff D models, Runyon Bionex, and Lawtonn BB (which is a med chamber, I think).

[Gayle Fredenburgh]

Larry,

I first heard that the size and shape of the sax mouthpiece chamber was important from Ralph Morgan. Ralph worked for Selmer for many years and his father worked for Conn for years before that. Ralph has his own mouthpiece line now and offers various chamber sizes for different instruments. There are many good articles written by Morgan in the old issues of the Saxophone Journal. I'll give you a quick simplified explanation of what he relayed to me. When a horn is designed there is an actual mathematical formula used to determine the placement of tone holes. An important part of this formula involves the volume of air. The size of the mouthpiece chamber affects the volume of air in this formula.

Many of the older American saxophones were designed around a mouthpiece with a large chamber. There are plenty of original mouthpieces around to prove this point. You can use any mouthpiece on any horn and if it suits your tastes in tone and intonation, that' fine. I've tested Morgan's theory and tried many, many different mouthpieces on many, many different horns. I have found that Ralph Morgan knows what he's talking about. Intonation can be affected greatly by the mouthpiece chamber. The notes closest to the mouthpiece are usually affected more, therefore you may find your palm key notes going sharper on a smaller chambered mouthpiece. Also, the horn may not give you the rich dark quality of sound with a smaller chambered piece. I've also discovered that the smaller the horn, the more important the mouthpiece is to its intonation.

Experiment and use your ears. Do a lot of comparison tests, that's how I've learned. Look for a mouthpiece that gives you good intonation and the sound you like without a lot of effort. There is no right or wrong with mouthpieces and horns. Some people are more or less sensitive to intonation so you'll find various opinions about whether mouthpiece chamber size matters on a saxophone.

[Mike W]

It probably also depends on how well you unconciously correct intonation tendencies with your embrochure--assuming of course that your setup is in an "intonation range" you can handle. A band director (who was a sax player--a rare thing when I was young) once told me that "if you have a very good ear, it is best to learn to play on a somewhat imperfect horn because your ear will force you to learn to correct intonation unconciously. Later, when you move to a horn with better intonation, perfect (or nearly perfect) intonation is effortless. On the other hand, he told me that for student with a bad ear--nothing helps--even a sax with perfect intonation (I have always wondered if that last comment was directed at me?)". I watched this guy pick up and play every sax in our first year (1963) band (about 11 or 12 saxes if I remember correctly) with perfect intonation (no perceptable beats) up and down the scale against a newly tuned piano and to the tuner (which I don't think itself did a whole scale). No small feat considering the junk horns some of us started with. One exercise he had us do was to tune flat and then play on pitch by embrochure adjustment, then tune sharp and play on pitch by embrochure adjustment. He used to tell us that the fingerings on sax just put us in the general vicinity of the note and the rest was up to us. In the end I am convinced that some people can play almost any setup in tune and others have more difficulty finding a setup that works for them.

[lhoover]

Thanks for all the opinions. Being the rank beginner I am on Tenor I really appreciate all the info I can get. Gayle, thanks for the info that you have given me over the last few weeks. I did have a slight leak in one pad and got it fixed and it is making a big difference. Now that I have practiced more I'm getting a lot more control of those lower notes. It certainly takes a lot more air than an alto but I'm getting used to that and the tone of that Big B is really something!

[paulwl]

Mike's sax-playing bandmaster probably had it right when he said that a player with a good ear could benefit from starting out on an imperfectly tuned sax. I didn't start on one, exactly, but I had a bit of a time in my 20s when I switched to vintage horns, figuring out how to make them respond in good tune without a lot of embouchure compromises that hurt my tone and made it hard to play.

My ear was always strong, and I had actual pitch, which helped me to be successful in my quest for workable, "real world" intonation. So I'm probably not as well equipped to appreciate the more abstract principles of saxophone mouthpiece acoustics as a player who doesn't have the "crutch" of actual pitch to rely on.

Still, I would tell any of them who quote chapter and verse to me that the elusive human factor is not to be underestimated. Nor would I want to underestimate the power of sheer rigorous practice, and careful mouthpiece selection, in making an in-tune player out of one who had no natural sense of pitch.

Gayle, I guess I never knew you'd worked so extensively with Morgan. I agree that he probably knows more about saxophone acoustics than anyone still living. You say there's no right or wrong, and I agree, but you say also that the formulae and acoustic rules are important. The question is, when you put the horn in the face of a unique individual, how important?

[Zman]

The T45 is not the best match for my '37 10M (major intonation bugs), but man it is a great mouthpiece overall. It would easily be my main squeeze if I were playing a more contemporary horn.

lhoover, I have recently rediscovered the Runyon Custom for my vintage axe. It is playing beautifully on my 10M with perfect intonation. Might be worth a try if your T45 gives you any fits.