Wait a minute...were there saxes before there were leak lights ???

[JayeSF]

...This just struck me while I was in my bathroom, shades drawn, light in horn...and the plug pulled out of the wall....

I know various prototypes of the light bulb go back before Edison, back to the early 1800's...but...my recollection is that those were large contraptions...certainly not something you could stick in a body tube....:scratch:

[SAXISMYAXE]

It is possible (although this is purely speculation on my part) that some repairmen may have used the smoke technique in place of the leak light.

[Kelly Bucheger]

You don't need no steenkeeng lights! See here:

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/LeakyPads.htm

[jbtsax]

Actually they used long thin candles that were lowered into the bore on a long wire. The Amish saxophone repair techs still use that exact same technique even today.



John

[gary]

It is possible (although this is purely speculation on my part) that some repairmen may have used the smoke technique in place of the leak light.

Before I played woodwinds, that's what I saw the sax players whom I knew do. In retrospect, the saxes must have really stunk, but in those days practically everybody smoked. And even if you didn't you were playing in those smoke-filled dens of iniquity.

[JayeSF]

Actually they used long thin candles that were lowered into the bore on a long wire. The Amish saxophone repair techs still use that exact same technique even today.

John

.....OK....you are yankin' my chain, right ??????:shock:

[gary]

Actually they used long thin candles that were lowered into the bore on a long wire. The Amish saxophone repair techs still use that exact same technique even today.

John

.....OK....you are yankin' my chain, right ??????:shock:



. . . if you have to ask -

[saxtek]

I talked to one great repairman (George Jameson, I think, (inventor of George's Glue for repair techs), who told me that there were no leak lights as late as 1930, at least in the factories.

[FremontSax]

So what came first hard pads or leak lights?

[Robysax]

This is like, what came first, the egg or the chicken?

[saxtek]

So what came first hard pads or leak lights?

Good question. I vote hard pads. I've seen overhauls of saxes almost 140 years old, and the "new" pads were made using music paper (cardboard) backing that was not much newer than the horn. The pads from the first (I assume) overhaul were very thin which is how today's hard pads are made. I used oversized bass clarinet pads with white leather to replace them. They worked very well.

After over 100 years, even thin hard pads tend to "puff up" because the felt inside the pads fluffs up, especially when the horn lies around unplayed.

Back to the original post - I'm pretty sure there were no leak lights in 1861 when my oldest saxophone was made by Adolphe Sax. The pads, however, were very thin and probably very hard in their original state, so that's really why I'm guessing hard pads came first

[JayeSF]

Actually they used long thin candles that were lowered into the bore on a long wire. The Amish saxophone repair techs still use that exact same technique even today.

John

.....OK....you are yankin' my chain, right ??????:shock:



. . . if you have to ask -

...this is why you don't go online after having had a few......:fftheai:

[JayeSF]

So what came first hard pads or leak lights?

Good question. I vote hard pads. I've seen overhauls of saxes almost 140 years old, and the "new" pads were made using music paper (cardboard) backing that was not much newer than the horn. The pads from the first (I assume) overhaul were very thin which is how today's hard pads are made. I used oversized bass clarinet pads with white leather to replace them. They worked very well.

After over 100 years, even thin hard pads tend to "puff up" because the felt inside the pads fluffs up, especially when the horn lies around unplayed.

Back to the original post - I'm pretty sure there were no leak lights in 1861 when my oldest saxophone was made by Adolphe Sax. The pads, however, were very thin and probably very hard in their original state, so that's really why I'm guessing hard pads came first

Very interesting stuff, 'tek. I guess I have always wondered whether Adolphe would have ever guessed that the mechanics of the sax, and the level of intricacy it takes to properly setup and regulate one, would be as complicated and sensitive as it turned out to be. Were his original saxes as touchy as the spawn which came after ???
I mean, for example, just the entire notion that one slightly leaking pad could suck the air out of the entire horn, or a poorly set key height could throw off the intonation, etc....and the degree of getting the aforementioed set just right. I am always duly impressed by a tech who can really get it down to the millimeters...

I just wonder if all of this came about as a result of the instrument evolving over time...or was it always the nature of the beast ?

It certainly seems to me that if the horn was around a good 50+ years before leak lights (or Amish candles), something must have been significantly different about those horns in regards to how the pads sat....than what we are familiar with today. If I brought a horn to one of my techs and told him "repad this puppy...make 'er tight....but don't use a leak light"...hehehe...I can imagine the expression on his face....

[Robysax]

Thinking about this a little further, who knows? remember woodwinds where in existence before Adolphe Sax came along with "the new and improved clarinet" he called the saxophone.
What was the method to fix leaks back then?
Could it be the candle like jbtsax said?
Who knows.

[saxtek]

[QUOTE=FremontSax;1190831]So what came first hard pads or leak lights?



Very interesting stuff, 'tek. I guess I have always wondered whether Adolphe would have ever guessed that the mechanics of the sax, and the level of intricacy it takes to properly setup and regulate one, would be as complicated and sensitive as it turned out to be. Were his original saxes as touchy as the spawn which came after ???
I mean, for example, just the entire notion that one slightly leaking pad could suck the air out of the entire horn, or a poorly set key height could throw off the intonation, etc....and the degree of getting the aforementioed set just right. I am always duly impressed by a tech who can really get it down to the millimeters...

I just wonder if all of this came about as a result of the instrument evolving over time...or was it always the nature of the beast ?

It certainly seems to me that if the horn was around a good 50+ years before leak lights (or Amish candles), something must have been significantly different about those horns in regards to how the pads sat....than what we are familiar with today. If I brought a horn to one of my techs and told him "repad this puppy...make 'er tight....but don't use a leak light"...hehehe...I can imagine the expression on his face....



The really really old horns actually had a more solid mechanism. It was simpler, with fewer interrelationships between keys, but not much fewer. The keywork was built close to the body, and long keys sometimes had oversized rods. Pads were thin, keys were stiff and problems were few after the horn was set up well initially.

Adolphe Sax saxophones I've repaired were superb for playing the music of their day. They were not as loud as today's horns, but neither was the rest of the ensemble.

[sax-ony]

You don't need no steenkeeng lights! See here:

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/HandyHints/LeakyPads.htm

My repairer favours the cigarette paper method as well. He reckons the leak light is a more common tool in the US than here in the UK. Of course he also thinks that cigarette papers, in experienced hands, will find leaks missed by leak lights.

[milandro]

Yep my repair man uses at least two different leak light system (incandescence and fluorescence ) but always uses the feeler too (he has something better that cigarette paper , he uses thin cellophane ). It is , apparently, a technique used a lot in flutes and clarinets. This technique must have been used by the saxophone people in the early days.

The thin candle seems a nice enough idea but, if you want to make sure that you are setting a pad closing on his own weight ( the best way to set a pad according to my sax guru and others that I have consulted on the matter) you have to hold the horn horizontally .........if you do this with a candle burning inside you will not only smoke the horn and make it dirty but wax will drop and heat will melt things, besides you could make a small oil lamp with a wick but the smoke and heat would still be the same.

[Stephen Howard]

Very interesting stuff, 'tek. I guess I have always wondered whether Adolphe would have ever guessed that the mechanics of the sax, and the level of intricacy it takes to properly setup and regulate one, would be as complicated and sensitive as it turned out to be. Were his original saxes as touchy as the spawn which came after ???
I mean, for example, just the entire notion that one slightly leaking pad could suck the air out of the entire horn, or a poorly set key height could throw off the intonation, etc....and the degree of getting the aforementioed set just right. I am always duly impressed by a tech who can really get it down to the millimeters...

I just wonder if all of this came about as a result of the instrument evolving over time...or was it always the nature of the beast ?

Sax's original horns, were they being built today, would be laughed at from all quarters. The pillars were rivetted onto the body, the body was so thin that it flexed when you gripped it, and the keywork was astonishingly crude.
But - they still worked, and they worked quite well, which is perhaps indicative of the saxophone's very forgiving nature.

Regards,

[Pete Thomas]

It certainly seems to me that if the horn was around a good 50+ years before leak lights (or Amish candles), something must have been significantly different about those horns in regards to how the pads sat....than what we are familiar with today. If I brought a horn to one of my techs and told him "repad this puppy...make 'er tight....but don't use a leak light"...hehehe...I can imagine the expression on his face....


I don't think so, I've known several repairers who do not use leak lights. Some consider that there are a leak light won't show up some leaks, so why use them at all.

Leak lights are probably most useful to find big obvious leaks, but if someone is doing a repad, they will (hopefully) level the toneholes and keycups, in which case any possible leaks would be very slight and best found with a cigarette paper.

[Stephen Howard]

Yep my repair man uses at least two different leak light system (incandescence and fluorescence ) but always uses the feeler too (he has something better that cigarette paper , he uses thin cellophane ). It is , apparently, a technique used a lot in flutes and clarinets. This technique must have been used by the saxophone people in the early days.

The thin candle seems a nice enough idea but, if you want to make sure that you are setting a pad closing on his own weight ( the best way to set a pad according to my sax guru and others that I have consulted on the matter) you have to hold the horn horizontally .........if you do this with a candle burning inside you will not only smoke the horn and make it dirty but wax will drop and heat will melt things, besides you could make a small oil lamp with a wick but the smoke and heat would still be the same.

Each leak detection method has its pros and cons - I prefer to use feelers as they give a tactile reading. In some cirumstances it's possible for a light show a pad seating, but a feeler will show that the seat isn't even and will fail in time.

I also test pads under tension rather than unsprung on the basis that the spring will force the key to take up any free play once applied, and thus change the cup angle very slightly. Won't be by much, but the error gets compounded with interlinked keys.

Regards,

[milandro]

I also test pads under tension rather than unsprung on the basis that the spring will force the key to take up any free play once applied, and thus change the cup angle very slightly. Won't be by much, but the error gets compounded with interlinked keys.

Regards,

Hello Stephen! :)

as you know I am very much a novice at doing any work on a saxophone and I am going by the advise that my mentor is giving me but learning is as much something you do by following someone else's advise as something one needs discover by himself. Thanks! :)

[Stephen Howard]

Hello Stephen! :)

as you know I am very much a novice at doing any work on a saxophone and I am going by the advise that my mentor is giving me but learning is as much something you do by following someone else's advise as something one needs discover by himself. Thanks! :)

Hiya mate!

Best thing to do is to try the various methods and then use the one that works for you. After a while you sort of 'get a feeling' that one method is going to work better in some circumstances than others and you'll probably find yourself using a variety of techniques...and you may even come up with a technique of your own that works better than all the others.

Cheers!

[Pete Thomas]

Surely many of the pads on pre-leaklight instruments were those big soft puffy ones, in which case a leaklight would have been more or less completely useless as the pads intruded so far into the toneholes, any light would not show.

And the Amish's candles would probably set fire to the pads.

[JayeSF]

So the mechanisms were notably different then as compared to now, so much so that the sort of miniscule adjustments necessary to make "todays" horns play up and down weren't required back in the day ? So it would be fair to say then, that as the instrument evolved into it present form, it became more complex and ...difficult (for lack of a better word) to work on...meaning, more variables, more elements to adjust and sync....

It's funny, because Steve..you called the instrument's nature "forgiving" (although I understand the context you intended ~ being that despite the relative crudeness of the originals, they still played and functioned well)....

I guess the subtext to my original Q is that, based on today's anatomy...I think the saxophone is absolutely the opposite. Compared to brass, strings, and percussion (all instruments I have played and worked on)...I find the sax to be an extremely.... temperamental mechanism.....

(of course, the payoff being what it is capable of producing....)

BTW...never been to a tech around here who didn't reach for his light almost as a reflex action.....

[Stephen Howard]

So the mechanisms were notably different then as compared to now, so much so that the sort of miniscule adjustments necessary to make "todays" horns play up and down weren't required back in the day ? So it would be fair to say then, that as the instrument evolved into it present form, it became more complex and ...difficult (for lack of a better word) to work on...meaning, more variables, more elements to adjust and sync....

It's funny, because Steve..you called the instrument's nature "forgiving" (although I understand the context you intended ~ being that despite the relative crudeness of the originals, they still played and functioned well)....

I guess the subtext to my original Q is that, based on today's anatomy...I think the saxophone is absolutely the opposite. Compared to brass, strings, and percussion (all instruments I have played and worked on)...I find the sax to be an extremely.... temperamental mechanism.....

(of course, the payoff being what it is capable of producing....)
BTW...never been to a tech around here who didn't reach for his light almost as a reflex action.....

It wasn't so much that the adjustments weren't required, more that the crudeness of the mechanism made it impossible to do so with any real accuracy.
As Pete Thomas pointed out, the workaround was to use soft pads. Sax's original pads were extremely soft - almost a stuffed pad ( as used on earlier clarinets etc. ). This meant that any discrepancies in the action would be taken up by means of pressing the keys down harder.

I once made the mistake of repadding such an instrument with modern pads. I can laugh about it now....

Were modern horns fitted with such pads you wouldn't have to worry about the complexity of the action - but the feel would be appalling.

Regards,

[jbtsax]

Thinking about this a little further, who knows? remember woodwinds where in existence before Adolphe Sax came along with "the new and improved clarinet" he called the saxophone.
What was the method to fix leaks back then?
Could it be the candle like jbtsax said?
Who knows.The Amish later abandoned using candles which tended to singe the pads and developed a new "technology" by which they trapped a large number of fireflies in a small pouch made of sheer cloth which was then tied with a string and lowered in the the sax in a darkened room.

The tune they hummed as they worked on saxes also changed from "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" to "Glow Little Glow Worm". :D

John

[saxtek]

It wasn't so much that the adjustments weren't required, more that the crudeness of the mechanism made it impossible to do so with any real accuracy.
As Pete Thomas pointed out, the workaround was to use soft pads. Sax's original pads were extremely soft - almost a stuffed pad ( as used on earlier clarinets etc. )



Actually, the several original Adolphe sax saxophones I've seen with original pads had very thin pads. Also, by the angle of the keys it is possible to determine the correct thickness of pads for these old horns. After 100 years, especially when the horn does not get played, the felt in the pads "fluffs up" spontaneously, giving the once thin pad a soft consistency that was not present when the pad was new.

The best pads I have found for overhauling 19th century Adolphe Sax saxophones are large diameter bass clarinet pads - the thinnest ones available. In most cases, they fit perfectly without bending keys. The resulting "feel" is very solid.

The old mechanisms can be restored to play perfectly. Any play in keys can be eliminated in the same way one perfects a modern horn. The brass used for the keys is very strong, as is the design of the keys. There was less "flex" than on modern saxophones.

It's a bit of a shock to feel the action of a 150 year old saxophone. Key placement is quite different, especially the palm keys. Arno Bornkamp resorted to using cork risers when playing his 1876 alto. However, if the player simply lives with the instrument for a few days, it no longer seems strange.

As for the original question, the first Adolphe Sax saxophone I restored was my 1861 baritone. Because it was a baritone, the use of a flourescent leak light was nearly impossible, as it was to the original maker. I sometimes used a small incandescent leak light, but mostly I used paper or mylar feelers. It would not have inconvenienced an experienced saxophone builder to use feelers when assembling or repairing a saxophone over 100 years ago.

[Stephen Howard]

Actually, the several original Adolphe sax saxophones I've seen with original pads had very thin pads. Also, by the angle of the keys it is possible to determine the correct thickness of pads for these old horns. After 100 years, especially when the horn does not get played, the felt in the pads "fluffs up" spontaneously, giving the once thin pad a soft consistency that was not present when the pad was new.

The best pads I have found for overhauling 19th century Adolphe Sax saxophones are large diameter bass clarinet pads - the thinnest ones available. In most cases, they fit perfectly without bending keys. The resulting "feel" is very solid.

The old mechanisms can be restored to play perfectly. Any play in keys can be eliminated in the same way one perfects a modern horn. The brass used for the keys is very strong, as is the design of the keys. There was less "flex" than on modern saxophones.

As it happens I have a Sax pad right here ( I sometimes keep them, they often have backing cards fitted that have writing on them ). It's a baritone pad, 60mm diameter and 5mm thick. The core is still flat, but the felt is of rough quality and is layered rather than woven. It's readily compressible, down to about 3mm.
The skin is kid, stitched on the underside to pull it taut, with a single stitch through the centre of the pad.

I've collected quite a few over the years and they're all pretty much the same.

I'm surprised you describe the action as solid, I always had to wrestle with the weakness of the body and the completely inadequate point screws.
I remember seeing a particularly troublesome set that I restored in the Horniman Museum back in the '90s. I was curious as to how they were standing up to being stuck in a cabinet for years, so I asked the curator if I could have a closer look. He said "Good heavens no, we don't just let anyone touch them!"
Made me smile.

How did you deal with the loose pillars?

Regards,

[saxtek]

How did you deal with the loose pillars?

Regards,

I've been lucky. All the posts (pillars) on my original saxes are very solid and strong. Sax used many different methods of construction, and some were not so good in the long run. Benedikt Eppelsheim sent me photos of an Adolphe Sax instrument he was restoring, and the posts kept popping off. it must have been a nightmare.

The horns I've seen had posts firmly riveted to a large rib, which was soldered to the body - very strong. I'm glad the first original saxophone I restored (circa 1861) didn't have the post problems. I was warned of big trouble by George Jameson (of George's glue fame), but nothing materialized, and the restoration went smoothly.

The old pads fit your description, but they were thin. As a matter of fact, the thin cardboard backing was paper from an old music publishing company. I was able to determine the time that the publishing company was in existence and I could make an educated guess as to when the pads were made. I think the horn was overhauled about 10 years after it was made (circa 1871) and then put away for good due to a broken low C# touchpiece.

My 1876 alto was in extremely good condition, with only 1 small dent. It had the same robust construction. Again, I went with thin (roughly 3 mm thick - I've forgotten the exact thickness) pads, and everything went faster than I had dreamed possible.

[Stephen Howard]

I've been lucky. All the posts (pillars) on my original saxes are very solid and strong. Sax used many different methods of construction, and some were not so good in the long run. Benedikt Eppelsheim sent me photos of an Adolphe Sax instrument he was restoring, and the posts kept popping off. it must have been a nightmare.

The horns I've seen had posts firmly riveted to a large rib, which was soldered to the body - very strong. I'm glad the first original saxophone I restored (circa 1861) didn't have the post problems. I was warned of big trouble by George Jameson (of George's glue fame), but nothing materialized, and the restoration went smoothly.

The old pads fit your description, but they were thin. As a matter of fact, the thin cardboard backing was paper from an old music publishing company. I was able to determine the time that the publishing company was in existence and I could make an educated guess as to when the pads were made. I think the horn was overhauled about 10 years after it was made (circa 1871) and then put away for good due to a broken low C# touchpiece.

My 1876 alto was in extremely good condition, with only 1 small dent. It had the same robust construction. Again, I went with thin (roughly 3 mm thick - I've forgotten the exact thickness) pads, and everything went faster than I had dreamed possible.

Lucky? I'll say!!
I suspect all the examples I worked on were very early ones as nearly all of them came via a specialist dealer and were intended for museums and specialist collectors. Quite a few of them had problems with degraded seams and suchlike, which would indicate some hard use in years gone by.

As regards the music on the backing cards, I've seen that too. Whenever I found them I retained them and mounted them on a sheet of card, which was returned with the completed sax by way of providing provenance.
On a couple of occasions I found card with handwriting on, as well as one set of pads that had been backed up by what turned out to be some sort of advertisement.

By far the biggest problem with these horns was severe deterioration around the base of the pillars. The rivet itself was usually intact, but the body around it was usually decayed or damaged.
Once such horn I worked on had each pillar secured with a huge blob of Chatterton's Compound - took me a week just to get the stuff off! I can still smell the stuff.

The ribs would have been a logical solution to the problem, but I have no idea when they first appeared. I would estimate that Sax would have seen problems after around 5 years of using the direct mounting method.

A couple of the best examples I worked on were used by John Harle for the incidental music for a Radio 3 play based on the life of Sax as seen through the 'eyes' of one of his instruments. I don't think the play was up to much, but the music was interesting!

Regards,

[saxtek]

Back when every operation in the construction of a saxophone was done entirely by hand, each horn could be made in a different manner, and the cost of production would not increase much.

Therefore it is not safe to say that early saxes were made using one method or another. Too bad we don't have enough of these old horns to better document the evolution of construction methods.

I also save all the old pads on instruments I restore. I mark each pad with it's associated key and keep them in the case with the instrument.

I think these old horns have a story to tell. Not so much the story of the previous owners, but the story of the craftsmen who made them.

For example, I noticed that the legs on the low Eb keyguard on my 1861 baritone were not parallel. The top of the keyguard was wider than the bottom, where it was soldered to the body. I thought it was an oversight, until I completed the low Eb keywork. Then I noticed that when the low Eb key was at rest, the keyguard (across the top, north to south) was immediately above the back 1/3 of the low Eb key cup, which is narrower than the diameter of the key. As the low Eb key was raised, it became more centered under the keyguard, and the guard had to provide more room for the widest part of the key.

Therefore, as the low Eb key was raised, the amount of clearance between the keyguard and the key cup remained constant between the legs of the guard. This "constant" amount of clearance is not necessary, but someone 148 years ago decided that a little extra effort would produce a more elegant mechanism. The worker who did this work might have been a former prisoner hired by Adolphe Sax, or the design might have been the brainchild of Mr. Sax himself. Whoever did it, it impressed me in a different time and place. Good job!

Now that we have thoroughly hijacked this thread, my vote on the original question:
No, there were probably no leak lights at the Adolphe Sax factory. I'm not even going to check Edison's patent dates and his European licensing agreements. I'll go out on a limb and guess that Sax's craftsmen could do an admirable job without leak lights. If anyone can prove me wrong, I'd love to hear the argument and I'll believe any creditable presentation.

[jbtsax]

Now that we have thoroughly hijacked this thread, my vote on the original question:
No, there were probably no leak lights at the Adolphe Sax factory. I'm not even going to check Edison's patent dates and his European licensing agreements. I'll go out on a limb and guess that Sax's craftsmen could do an admirable job without leak lights. If anyone can prove me wrong, I'd love to hear the argument and I'll believe any creditable presentation.
I suppose it is time for a serious response to this thread from me. Since checking the pads on all the other woodwinds is primarily done using a "feeler gauge" even today, I would think that this technique would logically have been transferred to the saxophone and used before the advent of electricity and the "small" incandescent light bulb.

John

[cjsaxman]

I dont use those leak lights you can buy, I just stick a string of christmas lights in my horn and find something to block the bell and neck hole

[jrvinson45]

Actually they used long thin candles that were lowered into the bore on a long wire. The Amish saxophone repair techs still use that exact same technique even today.

John

.....OK....you are yankin' my chain, right ??????:shock:



. . . if you have to ask -

...this is why you don't go online after having had a few......:fftheai:

Didja hear the one about the Amish saxaphone player who went into a bar....

didn't think so...:D