TH&C Fan/Owner Club...

[CashSax]

OK, OK.. I know the old BU 270-290's are the cat's meow, but hey..there's just something about my beautiful '53 TH&C tenor that just flat gets my motor runnin' ...

We used to have a Top Hat and Cane owner/ fan club on the old forum, I miss it.. the TH&C's are pretty darn fine horns in my book.. I've stacked it many times against my (real) Selmers, my killer Sterling S20 King and several very cool ex-Conns, it's not a panty-waist Horn that's for SURE..!!

Whadda youse guys think???....... 8)

[aanz]

I have a "55 alto. Yeah, it's a nice horn, great action and big, big sound. I'd love to find a matching tenor

[CashSax]

well for those of us that got 'em hang on ..they're goin' over the top price-wise..Perfect TH&C Tenor=$5.000.00 according to saxquest !! 8)

[Talldog]

Cash, I'm down. My '58 TH&C tenor is the bomb. Better by far than my previous selmers (Mk VI & VII) and a black Guardala. Unque sound that is even throughout the range. Superior intonation to the the above mentioned horns too. Extremely versatile in terms of tone color as well. I've had mine for about a year now, and I'm still totally smitten. I was off-line for a while. What kind of case did you get for you 'Cane? Gus Lives. T-dog.

[CashSax]

Hey Gus..no case yet, :oops: but with my rack of tenors so good right now the cane hasn't seen a lot of real world action lately..it's a killer, I play it in my studio at least weekly and just love it. an amazing horn to say the least..
I guess the travel case deal is the Hiscox, I've got to pick one up one of these days..had my stock cases restored recently and the canes box case came out real good. Nice to see you, Cash :mrgreen:

[ago_ego]

Hello there,
Why not make the TH&C the most popular horn on earth?
I've bought a couple of weeks ago a terrible looking TH&C tenor ser.# 298xxx (1942: it must be 1 of the first made). I have had a lot of horns in my hands but this beats all. Such a lush, horny sweet sound. So easy to blow on. Such complex overtones. And you can let her scream also if you want. Unbelievable. Far better then my 3 MarkVI's . Even better then my best super 20. These low tones.....And so even throughout and in tune.
It has really been played a lot. But the more experienced they are the better they get IMO. It was restored several times in her life. Never toutched the lacquer though.
Great. This is it. The ultimate Horn. Recommended to everybody.
Still a question. They say in the war years (II world war) the brass was not that good as before the war. Is that also true for the Bueschers. ( where the lacquer vanished the tube is really red, lots of copper I guess...).

[CashSax]

Ego, you may have a point there..

[Lovayne]

Talk about a coincidence! I too, recently purchased a TH&C tenor s/n 298xxx. This one is original silverplate. The silver on the body is pretty decent but the keys are really ugly due to plating wear and most of the silver is gone off the neck too. Hopefully when it's time for a repad I can have the keys re-plated. The body has had it's share of dents removed but it's straight and the keywork smooth and tight. I have to second everything EGO says about the tone and intonation. This sax speaks so easily with a lush even tone. What a joy to play! I don't know the details about 1942 brass, but I'm really going to enjoy playing this tenor!! Now if I can just get the keys looking as good as the rest of the horn.....

[Hornlip]

If I remember correctly, Gayle Fredenburgh has posted hereabouts that the Buescher brass quality doesn't seem to have taken a hit until later into the 50's around serial #331xxx, and in that instance she was talking about the Aristocrats only, not the 400's.

Somebody bought that $5K TH&C from Saxquest. :shock: Sheesh. I wonder if they actually paid that much for it?

Fortunately, I don't need a perfect-looking horn. Unfortunately, if you folks keeping talking up these horns, I'll be tempted to buy one. I'm mostly an alto guy, but I've been loving my Aristocrat tenor so much I can see more tenors in my future. . . .and much more spending!!

[paulwl]

Have a cherry THC alto coming from Australia...can't wait.

[CashSax]

Hey T-Dog and youse guys..good feedback..are the Alto's over the top like the Tenors?? I gotta try one. :twisted:

[Safesax]

I have a 331XXX TH&C - the brass is just fine. Not red at all - just that bare brass patina. It's easy to tell, because there are lots of places where the lacquer is missing! :D

It's the first horn I've ever owned that my repairman tried to buy from me. It really wails, sings and moans. I also have a 1939 Aristocrat in silver - It's very pretty, but when I'm playing where looks don't matter, the TH&C gets the nod.

I got a Keilwerth (Winter) aluminum case for the 400 for Christmas - it's a perfect fit. Looks great, too.

Dale C.

[Talldog]

Cash, Haven't got to try an alto yet, but I'm psyched to. Maybe we ought to open an 400 alto topic to alert players to our question. I need suggestions on how to wrestle '38 SBA alto from my dad, who hasn't played in years and the Selmer just sits in the basement. I just had to sell my '53 Aristocrat alto, but the old man is unmoved. I think he's jealous, cuz I became the pro he never could. The Selmer is beauteous, with sailboat and has been played @ five years since '38. Altoless in the vortex ... T-dog.

[mark_m]

Cash - where did you have cases restored? I sure have some in need...

[paulwl]

Well, the #353k Top Hat alto has arrived. And MANALIVE! what a magnificent instrument it is. Truly a closet queen except for brand new pads. Nearly pristine leatherette/rickrack traypak tripler case (reminds me of the seats in a '53 Chevy). No Snap-Ins, but it doesn't seem to matter (pace Bootman).

I have never played an alto with such an easy low register, for one thing. First impressions suggest that it also has loads of what I look for most in a saxophone: tonal versatility and flexibility. Does it play bright? You know it. But can it be dark, dulcet and delicate? Not bad there either! It IS a Buescher, after all.

Now here's the thing. The THC craving has hit me but good...I GOTTA HAVE A TENOR! Anyone got a line on one?

[Randall]

Paul, welcome to the club....I haven't seen any tenors lately, but when I do...
I had a later 400 alto that was a killer....I'd like to get the THC alto myself. :lol: [/img]

[Bootman]

Paul,
I heard ya! I haven't played a TH&C yet that has what my earlier model Bueschers have but I agree if it sounds like you have said then it willbe a great horn. I have always found that the bottom end lost the tonal centre that the earlier horns have. The rest of the horn is very similar though. It is the last of the real Bueschers.

[JL]

Bootman, just out of curiousity, what do you mean by "lost its tonal center in the bottom end." My BU 156 tenor has a gorgeous sound in the lower register, right down to the low Bb. You've played enough of these horns to know more about them than I do, so tell me what that "tonal center" on the earlier horns means. Thanks, I really appreciate your insights.

[Bootman]

JL,
The 156 and Big B models sound spreads out in the bottom end, it is a beautiful sound but can you hear the centre of the note? The centre is the core of the note, it is a concept that Flute, Clarinet and Brass players talk about all the time (particularly the classical players) and it rather hard to describe in words. In person I could show you easily. I will try though.

Take a middle B (B2), play this note. You should hear a nice pure tone (no vibe), the centre or core of the sound will be as close to a perfect note as you can get it. Now take a B1 and do the same thing, listen for the centre, it disappears. Conns, Martins and Selmers all lose this centre too. The JK horns don't have it either. My belief is that it is to do with the bell flare that stops this from being able to be achieved.

The advantage of finding the core of the sound is that you can then develop a big sound without blasting the daylights out of you horn, it is easier for intonation, blending and projection. Trust me when I say that my Martin is very loud, my Jk's were very loud, my Selmers never were loud enough, my Conn tenors were loud but the loudest most penetrating horn I have ever played is the 270K Buescher tenor and my 290K Buescher alto, both silver plated Aristocrat models in original condition with snap in pads, norton springs etc. These horn have also been set-up by an incredible technician and handle the rigours of over use better than any other sax I have owned.

Does this help?

[JL]

Thanks Bootman,
That's a good explanation. I have an Aristocrat alto of that vintage (274,xxx), but I don't play alto very often. I'll pull it out and see if I can hear what you're talking about on the alto.

[Bootman]

JL,
I find it easier to hear it on the tenor but it is definitely there on the alto too. It usually becomes apoparent around D and below. It is also very noticeable in the palm keys and altissimo, it is easier to slot these notes than on the later model too.

[Roger Aldridge]

I was hanging out with a buddy today. He tells me that he has an old saxophone up in the attic. I tell him that I'd like to see it. He brings down this beat up old case, opens it, and here's a mouth-watering 1949 (235xxx) TH&C alto in superb condition. I completely freaked out!!! I don't think that he'll sell it....but, I might be able to borrow it to give it a try. What a discovery! :D

[Roger Aldridge]

Oops.... Make that serial number 325xxx. I've become too used to writing serial numbers for TTs. :lol:

[super20dan]

rodger -once you play it -you will want it! these saxes are the best bueschers in my opinion and you wont rest till you get one . dosnt have to be top hat &cane -all 400,s are great. even the later ones which can be had at bargin prices. this is the one sax i can really tell a big diff in sound quality from other saxes.

[Roger Aldridge]

Super20Dan,

It will definitely be really cool to give it a try!

Anyway, some special work is being done to my TT alto that -- if everything works out right -- is going to transform a sweet horn into a completely awesome one. When I get it back and try it out I'll let everyone know about it. I'm feeling very excited about this. :D

[aanz]

Hey Cash,
If you want to try a Top Hat alto you can check mine out. I live in Oakland, you're around here aren't you? I might be forced to sell it to you.

aanz@mindspring.com

[JL]

"some special work is being done on my TT alto....."

Roger, my first horn was a TT alto. I got it in high school in 1968. I consider myself extremely lucky to have started with that TT. Although I mostly play tenor now, I still have the TT alto and to this day haven't played an alto with a better tone, even though in a misguided moment I bought a Yamaha Custom several years ago, thinking "newer is better." Then when I recently pulled out the TT, it blew me away how much better it sounded than the Yamaha. I'd bet the TH&C is really incredible, also.

[tophatsax]

I'm in the club now. I've had a Big B Bari for 20+ years, but just sold my Mark VI tenor and got myself a fabulous TH&C from '51. No regrets at all! Even managed to get a new Walt Johnson Case with the proceed from the VI. I found a Tenney Broadus mpc and now I'm playing again after almost a decade.

tophatsax

[paulwl]

The THC craving has hit me but good...I GOTTA HAVE A TENOR!
Finally got one...#340k, and another drop dead beauty, in every bit as good a condition as the alto...EXCEPT it arrived with one out-of-round tonehole. Plays beautifully down to G - after that, aAaaRrGgg. :(

Seller & I are going to file a claim with Unscrupulous Package Smashers, but I have a few questions for the knowledgeable...

1. The tonehole was pushed out of round by the bell brace getting pushed ever-so-slightly in. Could this have to do with putting a big bell horn in a standard tenor case? (followed by the dreaded "front end collision"?)

2. Could it have to do with particularly soft metal? How durable over all are your THC saxes?

3. Anyone have to have a stack F# or other tonehole unbent? How did the instrument do afterwards? Is it the ruination of the horn, or not necessarily?

TIA... :?

[CashSax]

These TH&C tenors don't seem to fit standard cases, hopefully the seller didn't cram it into one. If the body tube isn't bent too bad the horn should be OK.I have discovered recently a Pro-Tec contoured case works well for my TH&C.Tried a friends Hiscox case, it didn't fit. :roll:

[morgan]

Expect to need all new pads in the vicinity of the unbending. Like say the whole right hand stack. Maybe the left too.

Winter Greenline case (the "for Keilwerth" model) holds a bigbell 400 nicely but needs a little adjustment to accommodate the underslung mechanism of the neck

[paulwl]

My tech thinks we can get away with only one new pad (stack F#, the damaged tonehole's pad). He gave me a reasonable estimate, so I'm going to leave him the horn once I snap some pix of the damage and the carton side. Looks like another carton could have been dropped onto it from above. Then I'll have what I need to confront Unscrupulous.

The case was a standard DEG type, plenty roomy, with what seems like enough bubblewrap provided by seller.

[michaelbaird]

Can I be a member if I have a 400 Bari #377436?

[paulwl]

Damage update...

Bad news is UPS has taken no action on my damage claim. Their policy is evidently "when in doubt, insist the item was packed incorrectly and wash our hands of any blame."

Good news is the horn has come back from the shop playing as beautifully as any tenor I have ever owned. It's going to be a real joy to play.

[tophatsax]

Paul,

Forgive me if you've already tried all of this, but here are some suggestions.

1 - Keep pushing up the UPS "ladder". There are local and regional sales (and maybe other) managers who are more interested in solving problems than the regular customer service folks are. If you haven't already tried them, ask to speak to a supervisor when you are on the 800 number, or do a little research to find a UPS District Manager in your area.

2 - If your pictures show that the instrument was packed properly, get the packing instructions from a couple of vintage saxophone sites as proove that it was done correctly.

3 - If you can, get your tech to verify that with the way it was packed and the type of damage it received, it could only have been damaged by UPS abuse. Ask him to document that in writing (including information on his "20 years of experience" as a tech etc.

4 - If you or anyone you know uses UPS a moderate amount, play the "I could take my account elsewhere" card.

5 - Don't give up. It doesn't have to stop at the local level. You can always complain to the VP of Operations and the CEO and let them know that you know lots of professional musicians who ship musical instruments. If this is the way they plan to handle a claim, then the word can be spread on the use of FedEx or another shipping vendor.

Again, you may have tried all of this but making lots of noise in a professional and documented manor, having solid documented evidence and being persistant will usually pay off. Keep pushing .

Feel free to email me if I can be any help.

Phil Brewer
aka tophatsax

tophatsax "at" hotmail "dot" com

[Hurling Frootmig]

I've now officially joined the club. I picked up a 320k tenor in wonderful condition this week. It looks like it hasn't been played much. I had to adjust the spring on the neck and it needs a couple of keys adjusted but it is very playable. It has all of the snaps except for the palm keys.

It has a rich sound all the way up and down the horn. The build quality is really good. I own a 394k 400 alto and a 328k aristocrat alto as well as a 340k aristocrat tenor and they are quite nice but the 400 is a whole different level of beefy. The raised pearl on the Bis key is an example of some of the little things that they really were paying attention to with the horn.

It partnered well with a white Buescher piece I have that is correct for the vintage and worked well with a variety of Selmer Soloists, Brilhart Great Necks, Runyon Customs and SR's, and a vintage no name large chamber 20's/30's piece.

I'm leaning towards the Soloist and the white Buescher piece for the legit playing I am doing at the moment until I can track down an old Buescher Tru-lay.

Does anyone have any experience with the Morgan 3C or a Caravan?

I got tired of fighting the left pinky table on a Mark VII and didn't find any modern horns that spoke to me as well as the 400.

[Hurling Frootmig]

[Roger Aldridge]

Hurling,

I'm using a Morgan 3C on my TT alto and absolutely love it. This mouthpiece really surprised me! I found that I can get a bigger and more vibrant sound with it than with a Morgan EL. The EL has lots of power. But, to my ears, it sounds on the thin side when compared with the large, round sound of the 3C. I talked to Ralph Morgan a few days ago about the 3C and learned that it's his mouthpiece of choice when he plays alto. He was very happy that I "discovered" the 3C. I HIGHLY recommend it. In fact, I ordered a 3C for the Buescher TT tenor I recently acquired. Can't wait to try it on that horn.

By the way, if I get another alto I'll definitely get a 400!

[JfW]

Reading this thread and noting how fine an instrument my #441xxx 400 Tenor is, I'm really curious how the TH&Cs play

[paulwl]

Phil/Tophatsax: Thanks for the pointers. I'll ask around and see where things stand.

My tech can't testify to the condition of the packing, however. Part of the problem may have been putting a 400 in a conventional case. It fit, but... :?

[tophatsax]

Paul,

I just meant to show your tech the pictures and see if he could verify that the packing was appropriate. Good Luck.

Phil
tophatsax

[Hornlip]

So . . . you guys went on & on about the 400 and so I've joined the club. I had some very good news recently, & to congratulate myself I bought a 306xxx TH&C tenor.

I've played True-Tones & Aristocrat altos & tenor from the '20s & 30's, but never a 400 from any period. I Play-tested this one against a mid-60's Mark VI, a brand new Cannonball "Mad Meg" big-bell & a 60's 10M. I told myself that I wouldn't buy the 400 unless I plainly liked it better than all the other horns, and if it turned out I liked one of 'em better, I just wouldn't buy anything at all.

Here I am, at home with a TH&C!! 8)

The competition was stiff, though. The Mark VI was an extremely good horn, but I'm just not a big Selmer fan, so it lost. The 10M played very well & was all around very tight, but it just wasn't intriguing enough. The Cannonball was the biggest surprise -- I had heard mixed reviews of the Cannonballs, but mostly good things about the big-bell series -- and judging from this example it's definately a horn to contend with. If you're shopping for a new tenor, you owe it to yourself to check one out. You may not like it, but I don't think you would be able to deny that it's a serious pro horn. That said, the 400 was still sweeter to my ears -- so I didn't have to leave the store empty handed!!

It sounds like a Buescher, all right, so I loved it right away, but it's definately "jazzier" than my Aristocrat tenor. It plays somewhat brighter & it's got more flat-out punch. Which, I understand, is exactly what Buescher was going for when they introduced it. I would have loved to compare it to a Super 20, but the store didn't have one around.

It's an old relac, but superbly done. You have to look close to see the evidence. All but a couple of snaps present & all but one Norton. No major repairs, just a few very shallow dings. Came with a 60's 400 case (probably along with the relac) and the original "Buescher 400" mouthpiece.

This, folks, is a swell horn!!

[Hurling Frootmig]

I picked up a Morgan 3C and am using the TH&C 400 tenor with it in a classical ensemble with great results. I couldn't get any of my Bonade ligs to fit on it right so I ended up using a Vandoren Masters and now a Vandoren Optimum. This horn can go from dark and classical to really bright with a reed change.

[Hornlip]

This horn can go from dark and classical to really bright with a reed change.

I noticed a bit of that when I was play-testing the horn -- I was using my HR Vandoren T75 piece, but I also played it with the "Buescher 400" mouthpiece it came with. It's definately a classical piece with narrow tip opening, a large, scooped out chamber and the barest hint of roll-over baffle. It plays quite dark. But the tone darkened up markedly switching from a 2.5 to a 3 Vandoren blue-box reed.

[Hurling Frootmig]

For classical I am playing on Hemke's and sometimes Alexander's Classiques. When I put a Rico Jazz Select reed on my Morgan 3C it totally changes the character of the tone. I have a white Buescher mouthpiece that is considerably brighter than the Morgan but the Morgan is a really great piece and I can make it do whatever I want.

[rcsax]

I am interesting on 3C
What strength did you use hemke and RJS

[Hurling Frootmig]

I am using 3's with the Hemke's and I think the only Jazz Selects I have at the moment are 2 Medium's Unfiled but they are a little softer than what I really need. I need to pick up a couple of more boxes in stronger strengths to find the right match.

I'm playing 2 1/2 on the Classiques but prefer the Hemke's.

[rcsax]

Thanks
I am using hemke 3 too and 3S on RJS but hemke is much better
However I want ask what do you like more of morgan 3C, jazz, Excalibur ?
I do not want stuffy sound but not too much edgy
I liked meyer 5 with cannonball bigbell alto, they warm and round tone
and easy of blowing also clear
I have conn new wonder II brass alto I need large chamber

[Hurling Frootmig]

I haven't played the Morgan Jazz or Excalibur pieces. I mostly play classical Tenor at the moment. For most of the horns that I own I have found that the Morgan works very well with them. I am fortunate to have a variety of vintage mouthpieces and really prefer the Morgan more than anything else I own in terms of classical. I have also found the Morgan to be very flexible with moving to a bright reed for non-classical playing. Ralph Morgan told me that he plays on the 3C and used it to play lead in a Big Band.

On alto I really like the vintage Selmer Scroll shank pieces or a vintage Soloist in about C**. I find the sound to be more round than my Vandoren A5M (Meyer like piece). I will be getting a Morgan 3C for alto as I am very impressed with the quality of his pieces.

[rcsax]

Thanks

[Zoot Horn]

My main alto is a 1953 TH&C. I use a Lamberson 5M mouthpiece and Rico Jazz 3s. I also liked the Hempke 3s a lot. This horn sounds exactly the way I want it to!

[Hornlip]

So -- what well known players used to employ the 400 in its day? I know I've seen pix of Johnny Hodges with one. Seems like it really made its mark in R&B and R&R, though it was around for the later half of the swing age. They had to be fairly popular, b/c though they're not as easy to find as Aristocrats, they aren't the most scarce horn, either. Anybody know?

[Hornlip]

Look at this -- a "Top Hat and Cane" drum kit by Ludwig in the early 40's:

http://www.adrummerstradition.com/museum.htm

Scroll down about 3/4 the way on the page. I wonder if one influenced the decor on the other? Though I guess the top hat, gloves & cane said "classy" in a more resonant way then than now, so I suppose the top hat & cane motif might have been more common back then.

[Pinnman]

..... so I suppose the top hat & cane motif might have been more common back then.

There was also the Topper sax made by Conn which I believe I mentioned on another thread some time ago. I would have expected the motif to have been trademarked, but this looks unlikely with at least tree manufacturers adopting it.

[Pinnman]

... three manufacturers ...

[SactoPete]

Hi folks,

After an extensive search, I've joined the TH&C owner's ranks. After a few weeks of playing it, I've made some interesting observations:

- The action, range, and intonation of this horn is wicked-good. It just "feels right".
- Of the mouthpieces I have, I've found the setup I like best is with a Otto Link 7* and a LaVoz medium-hard reed. Seems to give almost a coltrane-like sound that I really dig. Other pieces I tried were two Berg-Larsen metal bullet-chamber pieces (too hollow-sounding), a Brillhart level-air metal (very buzzy), an MC Gregory (just not right) and a HR Link (not quite there).
- The tonal qualities of this horn in general are edgier than the 30M that I own (yes, I couldn't resist, I love it), which seems more adaptable to different setups than the TH&C. The Jupiter 787 student horn that I have is kind of in between, but the action and intonation on that horn aren't very good.
- The TH&C and the 30M are both MUCH heavier horns than the Jupiter... and the 30M is a bit heavier in the hand than the TH&C, but the TH&C feels much heavier while playing than the other horns - I think the neckstrap position should be lower for me.

All in all, I love this sax!