Who's Phrasing Do You Feel Influenced You?

[Rob Dorsey]

I had a bloody epiphany. I was working on some tunes and suddenly thought my phrasing sounded familiar.

I realized I wasn't hearing Pres or any other great tenor player and I wasn't hearing JJ or any of the other world class trombonists that so influenced me the many years I played that instrument. I was hearing Sinatra.

So this is the epiphany part: I've found that having transitioned to Tenor Sax from trombone, I often hear a vocalist in my head and just "feel" that the song should be phrased like Frank did it. Also, Ella and Lady Day, whoever sung the song that I hear.

Now, I know that I'm supposed to sound like me and nobody else. But a song is a musical and vocal medium, and the sax is a very vocal instrument, so if a singer laid down the best path through that tune 60 years ago. Who am to go improvising a new interpretation. I mean do I think I could phrase "Fly Me To The Moon" better than the friggin' Chairman? I think not.

So, who influences your phrasing, not your general playing per se but specifically the way you phrase tunes. It's certainly appropriate to discuss specific tunes and who's rendition you follow.

Best,
Rob D

[wheels410]

Paper Moon. I play it the way Ella sang it. I love her interpretation, and I can't play it any other way.

As far as soloing, Cannonball Adderly. It didn't really happen consciously. I played a solo during a college jazz band rehearsal and the lead tenor player told me, "good solo, Cannonball." I looked confused and he told me I sounded like Cannonball. PLEASE don't rifle back at me angrily. I know I am not the great Cannonball Adderly and I never will be. He is one of my favorite alto players, and I love his phrasing and his sound which is unmistakable. Maybe I play with similar phrasing because I listen to him so much, I don't know. Like I said, I didn't even know I was doing it.

[SoLongEric]

Hey! Great thread Rob Dorsey!

Phrasing is something that doesn't get talked about too much.

According to the title, I feel the phrasing of Warne Marsh rings the strongest in my Tenor concept (yea go figure). I like that *dodgy* approach to the line.

I dig Chet Baker's taste as well, vocally. I play along with alot of Chet's ballads, but they haven't surfaced in my playing yet, nore am I looking for it to surface, just a fun thing to have buzzing in the back of my head.

[Rob Dorsey]

Yeah, I have always been a Baker fan as well. And, I was dead nuts serious about "Fly Me To The Moon". I can't imagine doing it without the tempo (about 130) and Frank's phrasing. His use of syncopation on what is written as a smooth lyric line and his use of little silences make a soppy ballad swing hard.

Ella, well, I'd love to be able to capture her phrasing and ideas. It's just fascinating to think that Chick Webb took one look at this chubby little girl from the Harlem streets and started to send her packing. Some pressure from his sidemen got here a live, on stage "audition" at the Savoy and she blew them away.

Best,
Rob

[DanCraven]

Barney Wilen!

[hakukani]

Franco Corelli, Birgitte Nielsson, Maria Callas, Jussi Boerling, Lotte Lenya, Billie Holliday, Mose Allisson, Bonnie Raitt, Jimi Hendrix, Boots Randolf, Stan Getz, John Coltrane, Bird, Miles, Herbie, Wayne, Dolphy.

I'm sure I missed someone...

[DanCraven]

I'm sure I missed someone...

Don Ho? :D

[hakukani]

I'm sure I missed someone...

Don Ho? :D

Only on 'Tiny Bubbles'.

Oh yeah, I just remembered. John Mclaughlin and Carlos Santana

[gary]

On standards, probably Annie Ross and Chet Baker.

[toughtenor]

Barney Wilen!

now that's interesting.
not a very well known player with lots and lots of big selling albums. care to elaborate on this ?

[jazzcat58]

i think into jazz it was stan getz, especially his rendition of the ballad, very hard to imitate, and ive always liked grover washingtons tone/phrasing, often subtle..smooth of course.

[wheels410]

Ella, well, I'd love to be able to capture her phrasing and ideas. It's just fascinating to think that Chick Webb took one look at this chubby little girl from the Harlem streets and started to send her packing. Some pressure from his sidemen got here a live, on stage "audition" at the Savoy and she blew them away.

Best,
Rob

Thank God for sidemen

[MartinMusicMan]

King Curtis, Jr. Walker, Eric Clapton.

[DanCraven]

Barney Wilen!

now that's interesting.
not a very well known player with lots and lots of big selling albums. care to elaborate on this ?

When I first heard Barney Wilen, I heard lines that made harmonic sense to my ear. It was like hearing exactly what I wished I could have played at the time. I lifted lines back then that I still hear in my playing today. When I listen to him, I still get that sense that that's what it should sound like when I play. I wouldn't say I have worked any harder on him than on any other player I've studied, but it seems that his playing is more of a foundation in what I do than any of the others.

[littlewailer]

Not that I play anything like him.... But the way Kenny Garrett sets up his lines and repeats things strikes a chord with me.

I catch myself playing the same three or four note motif sometimes and go "I'm pulling a Kenny".

[Grumps]

Captain Kirk's...

[Rob Dorsey]

"This is damned peculiar"
JTK

[jrvinson45]

Manhattan Transfer..
and Zoot, of course..

[gary]

Captain Kirk's..."This is damned peculiar"
"Rocket Man" .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvQwXOCKNLY&feature=related
Jump to 1:02. Phrasing to die for.

[Third]

As far as jazz, you'll hear an endless amount of bird and dex in my solos.

When I'm playing a not-so-straightahead tune, you'll hear...Serj Tankian!? :O

That's right, his imperfect placement of figures and the heaviness with which he sings gets me every time I listen, and I often find myself "talking" like him on sax.

[Bebopalot]

My phrasing has been influenced mainly by Art Pepper's playing, Mark Murphy, Merle Haggard, Willie Nelson and Shirley Horn's vocals. If you listen closely, they have similar phrasing. Especially on ballads and standards, which is my thing. I am fortunate enough to have listened to them long enough to hear it in my playing. Generally speaking, when I play, I hear one of them inspiring me.

Interestingly enough, I find that many of the older country music vocalists had so much soul in their renditions. Something that is no longer true of country music in general today (it's mostly bad pop tunes). Unfortunately, most of them have faded into the past and no one really takes them seriously anymore.

[Rob Dorsey]

As far as jazz, you'll hear an endless amount of bird and dex in my solos.

When I'm playing a not-so-straightahead tune, you'll hear...Serj Tankian!? :O

That's right, his imperfect placement of figures and the heaviness with which he sings gets me every time I listen, and I often find myself "talking" like him on sax.

Perfect! That's exactly what I mean. It's often vocalists who give me the phrasing. And usually it's a song to which I know the words. If I know the cut really well I'll sing it in my head when I'm gardening, cooking, other stuff. Then when I get the horn in my hands there's no other way I can think of to phrase the tune. I mentioned "Fly Me To The Moon." We had a singer about a year ago who wanted to sing it at about 60. It was plumb lethargic. It's hard to get really good quality sleep while playing trombone, but I tried.

"Fly Me" should swing. Kay Ballard, Johnny Mathis, Nat Cole, the all sang it first but to jazz folk, Frank made it work. Wiki says he first sang it with the Basie Band in Vegas in 1964, when I was a junior in high school so that's pretty late, ballad speaking. But it's the definitive example.

I started to put IMHO, but my wife regularly reminds me that, to her knowledge, I've never had a "humble opinion."

Shed On,
RD

[hakukani]

Fly Me to the Moon makes a great Bossa.

[Rob Dorsey]

Wiki was wrong. As it sometimes is. YouTube has a video of him singing it with Basie in 1954. On live TV. Geeze, I might have seen that. Wow.

RD

[patchmo]

Edgar Allan Poe.:shock:

[MartinMusicMan]

Edgar Allan Poe.:shock:
Keeping time, time, time,
In a sort of Runic rhyme,
To the tintinnabulation that so musically wells
From the bells, bells, bells, bells,
Bells, bells, bells -
From the jingling and the tinkling of the bells.

Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'