Holton for Beginners?

[soonkies]

Hi guys,

I'm currently picking up the saxophone as an instrument and am looking for a cheap but decent tenor sax to start on; I've chanced upon a Holton 241 (in this forum too!), but have a few questions regarding a vintage horn - seeing as I am a beginner.

I've tried the Selmer Bundy for a few months as a rental, was moderately okay I guess, but other than that haven't had any experience at all with other brands/saxes.

1. How different is the keywork on the 241? Would I be able to pick it up easily even though I am a beginner? Rather, would it be recommended for me to learn with the 241?

2. Would maintenance be a problem - are pads brand-specific or can any technician in the area re-pad a sax?

Thanks guys :)

[LaPorte]

Hi guys,

I'm currently picking up the saxophone as an instrument and am looking for a cheap but decent tenor sax to start on; I've chanced upon a Holton 241 (in this forum too!), but have a few questions regarding a vintage horn - seeing as I am a beginner.

I've tried the Selmer Bundy for a few months as a rental, was moderately okay I guess, but other than that haven't had any experience at all with other brands/saxes.

1. How different is the keywork on the 241? Would I be able to pick it up easily even though I am a beginner? Rather, would it be recommended for me to learn with the 241?

2. Would maintenance be a problem - are pads brand-specific or can any technician in the area re-pad a sax?

Thanks guys :)

Welcome to Sax On The Web.

I've personally no experience with the '241' but you'll find some info in this thread: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=71134

and an older thread on the '241':
http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?p=401078#post401078

Felix

[JayeSF]

Hi Soonk, and welcome !

Wow....the 241 was arguably the best Tenor which Holton ever produced...it's one serious horn. A big, bold American tenor in every sense of the word. I love 'em. Their sound is just deep and rich and resonant and fat. They are great and very underrated horns !

Some folks here would argue that a beginner should be playing a beginner horn. But IMHO, what the heck kinda sense does that make ?...I mean, if you have a good opportunity to buy a great old vintage horn...why the heck would you buy a cheap contemporary one labeled as 'beginner' or even 'intermediate'? I am baffled by this mindset.

But anyway...Quick answer to one of your Q's: Tech work, repair, tuneups etc is absolutely NO PROBLEM on a 241, or any vintage horn for that matter. So there is no concern about upkeep or repairs costing more than any other horn.

Now a Question (or 4) for you:

When you tried the 241, did it FEEL good to you. Was it comfortable ? Was the reach to the left-hand pinky table OK, not too much of a stretch. Was the reach to the low C spatula key smooth for your right-hand pinky ??? Did the right and left hand palm keys seem fine, or did they seem set too high or low ?

When you answer this, you have answered your own question. If it seems to work for you...then go for it. If you play other horns and they seem easier, then...that may be a factor in your decision.

So, compared to the Bundy, does the 241 seem easier/smoother/more fun to play ???

Vintage horns vary in their ergonomics and keywork. Unlike today, there really was no standardization of a lot of horn specifications, so each brand felt sorta different, and one needed to familiarize themselves with the particular horn. But, of course, all the keys are there where they are supposed to be :shock::TGNCHK:...it's not like if you pick up another horn, your fingrers are going to have to go completely different places. Even vintage sax keywork is certainly standardized enough to insure THAT. ;)

For me, a 241 feels just fine....no weird reaches, no fumbling fingers, no difficulties in finding/identifying/accessing any keys quickly.

My GF has a Keilwerth New King Tenor...and she doesn't like the low right hand spatula design on my 241...she says she keeps fumbling over 'em when she plays my horn...she's quite used to her New King...yet she admits that the pinky table on the 241 is much easier to navigate than her Keilwerth's. So, the 241 key design is different from her horn's...just as a Conn 10M would be, or a Dolnet, or a Martin, or a Buescher would be...

The other issue is intonation...some vintage horns require more embouchure work to play all notes in tune from top to bottom. I have 3 Holtons...the 241, a Revelation, and a Collegiate...and none of the 3 have intonation issues I have experienced...for me. How about for you ? Does it sound like some of the notes on the 241 are "off" a bit when you blow ? Or do you not notice any such thing ?

IN a nutshell, if the horn feels good and sounds good, it may be a good match (you are certainly eyeing a very, very GOOD pro-calibre horn). If it feels uncomfortable or seems to play with difficulty or out of tune, then maybe it isn't a great match for you (all of this assuming, of course, that the horn is setup well to play...no leaks, decent action/regulation, etc).

Sorry for the novel...

[jazzbug1]

I agree with JayeSF. This is a pro horn comparable to any of the post WWII era. I always recommend to my students to buy vintage horns, as the value always increases. The advantage of a Holton is the price for a fine 241 is what you would pay for a Bundy, which was never built as a pro horn. Go for the 241, enjoy it, and let other players hear what a great horn it is.

[geauxsax]

I concur with my above fellow Holton fans--a great and underappreciated horn--probably the best Holton ever made. I don't see any problem starting on one. The ergos are comparable to the rest of the "big brands" of the era. The LH cluster may seem different after playing the Bundy though, if it was a Bundy II--any horn would feel different, as Bundy II clusters are far forward. Anyway--let see some pics!!!:D

[hgrail]

I had a Holton 241 in college - good horn - great sound. Keywork was as good as any from the era - and with some tweaking the LH cluster was more than acceptable.

Any decent tech should be able to work on this horn - nothing weird. I had heard they were actually copies of Conns - but I never got around to owning a Conn so I can't verify that claim..

A better horn than the Bundy hands down. Go for it!

[NissanMarkVII]

Holtons are more French than American. American lineage, french design. That make sense?

[JayeSF]

...to you...everything's French.....:shock: ;)

[geauxsax]

Holtons are more French than American. American lineage, french design. That make sense?

Nissan--you're gonna have to explain that one. I don't have any French saxes, and it's been 20 years since I had the school's Mk VI, so I can't offer any ideas about how they relate to French horns, but my 241 sure does seem very similar to a RTH Conn 10M I had briefly.

[NissanMarkVII]

Holtons are more French than American. American lineage, french design. That make sense?

Nissan--you're gonna have to explain that one. I don't have any French saxes, and it's been 20 years since I had the school's Mk VI, so I can't offer any ideas about how they relate to French horns, but my 241 sure does seem very similar to a RTH Conn 10M I had briefly.

Please, take this with a grain of salt, but from looking at the pictures here, and from studying from other sites (even before LaBlanc officially took Holton over), there were many French attributes (most notably in the Bari).

These attributes, are very similar to Beaugnier (Low C vent key, cages in some models, key layout on some models). Don't know if they had a Frenchman formerly from Beaugnier working for Holton or if there was more going on behind the scenes than what perceived Holton history appears to show.

Like I said, I am NO expert, far from it, and take this with a grain of salt. Ever since stumbling on these Holton threads, it's got me very curious about the brand (since LeBlanc did eventually buy Holton, Martin, and became a Yani distributor, and has been tied to Vito for a long time).

[jazzbug1]

Holton, early in their history, copied some French features, such as the high D side trill key, low C vent key, and the lever type G# trill key. These were all features on a ca. 1910 Buffet, as I've blabbed about before on this site. Perhaps Holton hired a French designer, or they just copied the ideas. Certainly, Holton was looking for ideas to make a "different" saxophone. Too bad they didn't market to the pro players in the big band era, like Conn, Buescher, Martin, and King were doing, but that is why we can all afford entire "Holton Arsenals."