New G1 Neck

[spmjbro]

Recently noticed the following comment on a saxophone news site. There were many replies which seemed to support the view that there is a problem with the new G1 neck. Any information on this would be appreciated. The following is the initial comment:

"I spoke with Mike (last name?) -technician at Yamaha Band Instrument
division in Michigan and he admitted that the new tenor (alto too?) 82Z may
play sharp in the high register. he stated that it could be due to a problem
with the new G1 neck and that he has received other calls about this issue
from new owners. he noted that Yamaha is in the process of creating a new G1
neck to address this problem under warranty. I responded that there is no
assurance that it will solve the problem (i.e., it may create different
pitch problems). I have an 82Z enroute and given the unfortunate (in this
case) consistency of Yamaha's production, I am very concerned that I bought
a bad horn. I am trying to decide whether to have the horn tested for pitch
($30) and other manufacturing integrity by a local horn technician or simply
putting a return sticker to Pro Winds (I have 7 days to return it). At this
time, I may be stuck for (UPS) insurance in returning the instrument and
this could be $90+. Mike noted that some top artists (e.g., Phil Woods) are
playing the Z but he also admitted that they used prototype Z's at the NAMM
show.

Since the G1 neck is used on the new 62 II, I wonder if there are the same
pitch problems?

What a mess--caveat emptor.

I would be very much interested in impressions from other owners of new Z's. "

[psyguy]

Yes... that was my post in the internet newsgroup. There are only a handful of new tenor 82Z and 62 II owners who have confirmed this problem. Suffice to say, Yamaha appears willing to make every effort to correct the problem.

[scale_master]

From what I heard and read, the problem only occurs on the Tenors, not the Altos.

[Gandalfe]

I have a Z alto that I play in community band and dance band. I don't have any intonation problems throughout the range of the horn. As a matter of fact, the director stopped the session last week and complimented the two altos for our tone and precision. Now that rarely happens. :lol:

[psyguy]

I believe it only affects the new tenor horns

[Sax on the Beach]

Doh! I'm waiting on a YTS 62II from WWBW. Can anyone who has received a new tenor 62II confirm or deny this problem with their G1 neck on this post? Thanks.
SOTB

[Morry]

I had the problem on a 62II that I purchased from USA Horn. It is on its way back.

[psyguy]

I just got off the phone with Yamaha's warranty dept in Michigan. I learned that Yamaha will have replacement necks (Revised G1) on or about 4/15. They resolutely state it will correct the intonation problem. He claimed it affects the ALTO 62 II in addition to the new tenor line. I asked if the revision will alter the vaunted free-blowing aspect of the G1 neck and he stated it would not. He remarked that a prototype revised neck has already been tried and it corrects the problem. They have not decided if they will have the dealer replace the necks or direct from Yamaha.

[Al Stevens]

Here's my take on the G1 problem. The short version is: Yamaha has not solved the 82Z tenor upper register pitch problem, and the problem is definitely with the G1 neck.

I bought a new unlacquered 82Z tenor in May. It has the new G1 neck. I am relatively new to the tenor sax and thought the pitch problems were mine not the horn's.

A friend who is an excellent tenor player told me the sax plays sharp in the upper register. My teacher, also a fine player, said the same thing. Neither player can play my 82Z in tune. Both guys are jazz, show, and big band players. They play the same mpc I use and they have Mark VI's.

I use Otto Link 7* mouthpieces, a metal and a rubber, and either Rico 2 1/2 or La Voz medium soft reeds. Changing reeds does not help.

I tried their Mark VI's with my mpc and had no pitch problems. I did not have a pitch problem with the Vito I learned on, either. I have a Mark VII alto and have no pitch problems with it. We concluded that the problem has to be with the 82Z.

We tried a neck from the store's student model Yamaha sax, one they have for rentals. No pitch problems, but it loses that dark sound that made me love the 82Z when I first tried it out.

I tried the neck from an 82Z owned by a teacher in the store. Same problem. My neck on his horn: same problem. Him playing either neck on either horn? No problem, but I think he was tuning flat and lipping up in the low register and down in the upper register. That's what he suggested I do. I'd rather play a horn that plays in tune on its own.

Yamaha refuses to do anything about the problem because the serial number indicates that the horn was shipped with the new G1 neck. The rep actually said Yamaha built it that way "intentionally" to give jazz players "more freedom," whatever that means. Their only suggestion is that I purchase a student model neck.

I tried a Selmer C* mpc and, guess what? The pitch problem is not as prominent, almost nonexistant. But not the sound I want, either.

Curiously, the crappy mouthpiece that comes with the horn will not even tune up to C on the staff with the mpc jammed all way in. The meter needle doesn't budge. Upper register C does register on the meter. The horn has the pitch problem with the mpc it comes with!

I wonder if the gold-plated G1 will solve the problem, but there's not one available for me to try out. If it would, I'd keep the horn. In the meantime, I'm looking for something else.

So, if you are thinking of buying an Yamaha 82Z tenor, I strongly recommend that you try it out with your mpc of choice and with a meter in front of you. Tune to C on the staff. Then play C in the upper register. If that needle doesn't hang near the center, don't buy the horn.

Conclusion: Yamaha has engineered a horn that does not play in pitch with the kind of mouthpieces that many jazz players prefer.

[pknight]

With all due respect, it might be more accurate to say that Yamaha has produced a sax (yours) that does not play in tune. I would be surprised to learn of any sax model for which the same could not be said. Reports of G1 neck problems have about disappeared from the forum. Your situation is unfortunate, but if it were a general problem with G1s, this section of the fourm would be flooded with reports.

Good luck finding something that works for you.

[gary]

Al, I'm sorry you're having problems. The way you've test-played the sax and made multiple comparisons, I have no doubt you are having problems. But just to add a bit of perspective, I have a Yamaha Z tenor and the intonation is impeccable.

Among other groups, I play in a big band and the leader and some section mates have immediately commented on the improved intonation in the section since I've been playing the "Z" verses my previous sax.

Wish I knew what the answer to your problem is but I've got to say I don't think it's a universal problem with these saxes.

[Al Stevens]

Given these responses, I can accept that it's my horn and not the horn in general. More specifically, I think the problem is my G1 neck.

My conclusions about the 82Z are based on my experience with that store teacher's 82Z that had exactly the same problem. Granted, a 2-horn sample is far from representative, but it's all I have to go on.

Now I think it might just be the neck. I think that somehow they packed an old neck with the new horn. Yamaha won't do anything about it, though. At the very least they ought to ship me a new neck.

I'm trying to determine now whether something about the neck might identify its vintage. The only markings say Custom G1.

I think I might start to make some very loud noises about it.

Thanks for responding.

[pknight]

I think that somehow they packed an old neck with the new horn. Yamaha won't do anything about it, though. At the very least they ought to ship me a new neck..

It seems very unlikely that they shipped you the wrong neck. The 82Z was never produced with the old neck. Also, all of the pro (62) and Custom saxes are made in the same facility, and all of them ship with G1 necks. There wouldn't be any other necks around!

It sounds like you need to find a Yamaha dealer who will let you swap out necks from other 82Zs, and use your neck on other 82Z bodies. That sort of information (and the dealer's help) might get you farther with Yamaha.

[Jazzer]

My experience with my 82Z Tenor is that the palm keys were opening too far and causing the notes to play sharp. Once we made some adjustments, it plays very well in tune for me. My 2 cents.

David

[sessionsax]

I checked into getting a G1 neck and Mike Lutely from Yamaha gave me this info. I was asking him how it would work on an old model 62 alto.

"Terry-- Nice to hear from you. I definitely prefer the tonal characteristics and blowing feel of the G1, but the pitch tends to be somewhat higher in the upper register and I think B, C, C# tend to be slightly lower---there are plenty of people that this seems very workable in amount---you'd have to decide for yourself. On my alto I have the palm key openings a bit lower and I usually tune at a balance point requiring slightly higher voicing of the midrange B-C#. "

[Al Stevens]

It seems very unlikely that they shipped you the wrong neck.

It seems very likely to me, all things considered.

The 82Z was never produced with the old neck.

According to the Yamaha rep, the first run of 82Zs were indeed shipped with an earlier version of the G1 neck. After people started complaining about intonation, Yamaha modified it and replaced old G1 necks with the new one under warranty. Since my 82Z's serial number post dates the upgrade, Yamaha is just assuming that I have the new neck without even looking at it. I am asking them for a bona fide new neck to test, but I haven't heard from them yet.

With respect to palm keys contributing to the problem, the local tech checked them and made whatever adjustments he could. But the problem occurs on notes that don't use palm keys.

And, remember, the problem goes completely away with a student model Yamaha neck. I'd use one but it just doesn't produce an acceptable sound.

[Jazzer]

Does your neck have a dot inside the saddle on the neck where the octave arm rests?

[Al Stevens]

Does your neck have a dot inside the saddle on the neck where the octave arm rests?

It has a tiny dot in the center of the saddle. Based on what I read, that is the revised neck. I'm still hoping to try another one.

Frustration...

[rapabq]

Hey Al,

I can empathize with you on your 82Z intonation woes. Your story is just like mine. I have a laq 82Z tenor with the revised neck (it has the dot on the saddle). If I tune dead center to middle C, and then move to high C, I go way sharp. I've tried three different mouthpieces, but the basic problem remains....the horn goes sharp in the upper register. I too am growing frustrated, because I really like the sound and feel of the horn. I talked to Mike at Yamaha, and he gave me similar suggestions on adjusting keys. I'll give that a try.

rap

[sessionsax]

I just tried several G1 necks this weekend and I can tell you that the sound and feel of these necks are all over the board. The intontation (for alto) was generally good, but Mike was on the mark when he said that the b, c and c# would be a hair flat, but the intonation is manageable.

I tried a non-custom G1 lacquered, and the intonation was not that sharp in the upper range, but the middle D, E, and Eb were very flat and dead sounding.

I tried a non custom gold plated G1 and it sounded dead and lifeless, but the intonation was very good -- in fact -- spot on.

I also tried an unlacqured G1 Custom and this was by far the best of the bunch. It did show the flat b, c and c#, but it was just a hair and the upper stack and palm keys tuned better than my stock 62 neck and better than a Ponzol that I have. It gave my old 62 a very fat yet bright sound quality. Much better than the thin sound that I get with the stock 62 neck.

I have requested a custom G1 Lacqured to compare against the UL model and will let you know how it works.

I can say, that the custom G1s are much better -- IMO -- that the non-custom models. Also, I can tell that trying the G1 neck is like trying several models of the same mouthpiece -- everyone is different.

I always credited Yamaha with being very precise in thier manufacturing, but with the G1s, you will need to try several to get that "one".

I will let you know if I notice manufacturing variances between the customs that I have coming in.

I would expect a tonal difference between G1 necks because of finish, but not dramatic differences in intonation and feel. We will see.

[pknight]

It seems very unlikely that they shipped you the wrong neck.

It seems very likely to me, all things considered.

The 82Z was never produced with the old neck.



OK. By "old" neck, I thought you were referring to the pre-G1 necks.

[pknight]

I can say, that the custom G1s are much better -- IMO -- that the non-custom models. Also, I can tell that trying the G1 neck is like trying several models of the same mouthpiece -- everyone is different.

I always credited Yamaha with being very precise in thier manufacturing, but with the G1s, you will need to try several to get that "one".

I gather that you are trying these necks on a 62 alto? Is this a 62-II or an older 62? I don't know, but given other differences between the 62s and the Custom models, I never expected that the 62 G1s and the Custom G1s would be designed exactly the same, and therefore wouldn't expect them to perform the same on any given sax.

FWIW, I have a 62-II with the stock G1 neck, and have no intonation problems to mention. I have found that the tone of this instrument is quite flexible, and easily modified by changes in reeds alone, not to mention more dramatic changes with mouthpieces.

[sessionsax]

pknight,

Its an older 62 and I am just giving my experiences thus far with the non custom G1s.

I am sure that there are good ones -- the main point that I was trying to get across is that it seems that "all" of the G1s are a mixed bag and that it would be smart to try several. Also, my best luck thusfar has been with the custom necks. I was talking necks only, not horns -- so I am sure that there are some great 62IIs out there and quite possibly -- the necks shipped on these horns could be the creme of the crop. I could be working through necks that "just did'nt quite make it".

[pknight]

I gotcha.

[Jedi2427]

Hi, I posted this under necks a few days ago, but thought it might be helpful here.
I did exactly what some of you are talking about... I own/play the YTS-62II as well as the old 62 tenor. I did a three hour play test comparison of the lacqured YTS-82Z and it's Custom G-1 neck, and a gold plated Custom G-1 neck, and my plain G-1 neck, taking them on and off the 82Z and my 62II.

My results: The Custom Gold Plated-G-1 neck added signifigant warmth to both the 82Z and the 62II.
There is a slight difference between the regular Custom G-1 and the plain G-1 (marked only G-1 on the neck, verus Custom G-1 on the Custom neck) But, not enough difference to make me buy the lacqured Custom neck. But, I may eventually fork out the $$$ for a Gold Plated Custom neck, it was that good to me.

The 82Z sax had slightly more warmth/resonance compared to my 62II, but not enough to make me buy one.
And...I was able to interchange the G-1 necks on my "old" YTS-62 tenor but, one will have to modify the octave key stem slightly, and it does make the old 62 play similar to the new horns, "freeing" it up.
Just my experience...hopes this helps.

[Al Stevens]

Hey Al,

I can empathize with you on your 82Z intonation woes. Your story is just like mine. I have a laq 82Z tenor with the revised neck (it has the dot on the saddle). If I tune dead center to middle C, and then move to high C, I go way sharp. I've tried three different mouthpieces, but the basic problem remains....the horn goes sharp in the upper register. I too am growing frustrated, because I really like the sound and feel of the horn. I talked to Mike at Yamaha, and he gave me similar suggestions on adjusting keys. I'll give that a try.

rap

It's reassuring to know I'm not the only one. Yamaha sent me a new unlacquered G1 Custom neck. It seems to have solved the problem only slightly. Upper notes are not as sharp as with the neck that came with the horn. Adjusting palm keys can have no effect on the problem we have. The palm keys are all closed when playing C in either register.

The problem seems to be a combination of mpc and neck. Try a Selmer C*. It seems to work best. Not that I'd want to sound like that...

I find the biggest correction comes when I put a whole lot more air behind the upper notes. More than is comfortable. It's not perfect, but it seems to help -- at least when I'm looking at a meter. But my teacher, who can fill a room with air, still has intonation problems with this horn.

My plan is to find a horn I like and sell the 82Z.

[Al Stevens]

I solved my intonation problem. The solution was simple. It's called Mark VI, 68K.

You can solve almost any problem if you throw enough money at it. Now I have a new problem. Coming up with the money. :(