Super 20 Tenor: early versus late...

[xax]

ok, so i read all kinda contradictory information about the evolution of the Super 20. it runs the gamut: from, "the later S20's are just fine and virtually indistigiushable from the earlier ones" to, "the newer ones are 'not very desireable'", to, "the newer S20's are actually mo' betterer because of certain keywork changes". well, just to add fog to the fire...anyone else heard of differences between the early and late body tubes?

[T.S.]

I own a 1976 576xxx range all brass 20 with underslung neck (and brazed on tone holes), that I've since replace with a Gloger Silver underslung. It is, in every way, a superb tenor. I bought it in 1977 new, and have yet to find a horn I like quite as well. I've played a number of 20's from early to late (with under and over the top octave keys) in both variations of brass and silversonic types in both alto and tenor. I prefer from about 385xxx on up to 580xxx, but prefer the underslung neck(merely aesthetic-as the SML over the Top necks play just fine). I prefer the keywork (specifically the left hand pinky table on these.
The earlier 20's a prettier, insofar as there is engraving on the key cups and there is much detail work that disappears later...Double sleeve necks give way to single sleeve, which some say was a cheapening move, however I've been told by a few old timers that this more due to easing the difficulty of damage repair.
They all sound good to great-if set up well-as with any horn- (the Super 20 sound is something that once you're hooked on, spoils you for anything else)...It's a toss up and very subjective which vintage Super 20 sound you may prefer.

[Saxturtle]

I think Super 20's pretty much are what they are from a sound/tone perspective due to the basic design commonality on all versions. I've never heard any reference to bore/taper/etc. changes being introduced by the succession of King/HN White corporate owners. The differences we do know exist, i.e. neck cosmetics, neck mounting methods, how many holes are in the strap eyelet, engraving on the BK's, pearl chips, pant guard design(all sax players pant now and again, right?), have nothing to do with sound, although there is a definite and real price difference for these visual niceities. Separating sound from beauty(in the eye of the beholder, I know... :lol:) could allow you to consider a great newer 'less desirable' horn and save a ton 'o money as a bonus, and with a S20 you could probably always get back at least what you paid if selling becomes a must,

T.S., I have a 376xxx with silver underslung double socket neck. I recently read that these necks are next to impossible to come by if anything happens to them :( , so I've recently become serious about an aftermarket neck. Can you comment on your Gloger? Thanks!

[shmuelyosef]

The double socket necks are nearly impossible to come by...I have converted several Zephyrs to single socket as a result of irreparable damage to the socket (on the other hand, both of these horns cost less than $200 as a result and were otherwise excellent).

[T.S.]

Saxturtle- Karsten Gloger's necks are fabulous and I couldn't be happier with mine...My 20 sounded quite good with the brass neck, but just sings with the silver. The great thing, is that he can make a double socket or single socket neck for you. I believe the doubles are more expensive, but he does great work, and I don't think you'll be unhappy should you choose to order one from him. He will ask you what kind of quality sound you are going for and can do a variation on neck curves an tapers, and know's his stuff....

I read (I think it was on the cybersax site, but I could be mistaken) that people don't buy Super 20's, they adopt them! ...I have to agree....

[shmuelyosef]

T.S.
Just curious (if you're willing to share)...how much did the silver Gloger set you back? Was it a tenor?

[T.S.]

At the time I bought mine (for tenor) it ran me about 625. or so...The exchange rate of the dollar to the Euro now is very poor, so they are probably more now. You can go to his site and he has a breakdown of prices with options. E-mail him or E-mail Mad Duran in the bay area (she's the US rep) for exact info.
He makes great necks which are a God Send to Vintage owners.

[SAXISMYAXE]

Saxturtle;
Your post about the Early Vs. Late King Super 20's rings true from the first word to the last. There are a number of great horns out there that sit neglected purely because of a certain "Collector" snobbery or myth. I advise anyone with the funds to buy these horns up while the are relatively affordable; this won't be the case in a few years as they begin to dry up in availability.

[PB]

The best King I ever had was a 295xxx tenor. I sold it three years ago and I don`t know why!!!! All the Kings I tried after that, especially 400xxx and beyond didn`t have better keywork. A King is a King. 1948 or 1974- you have to get used to it.
But the old ones were by far the most forcefull horns. The later models do not have that heavy sound - they are more elegant but thinner in sound. Collector or not -- try it. But not with a Dukoff please..........

[Mike W]

I like the sound of my dukoff on my eastlake S20 a lot. All a matter of taste, I guess.

[twowheels]

Couple of months ago I picked up a silver-necked Super 20 (SN 402K) that had been worked over by Palo at "Just Saxes" (His personal horn for a while). I find it has that nice King "brassy" tone with my SR Tech Pro metal piece, altissimo has never been as easy as it is on the King.

This one has had the lacquer removed. Haven't played any other King Super 20's but this one has a great sound, different enough from my Mark VI with Noyeks that I bought it. A GREAT horn! Having alot of fun with it.

Is it considered an "early" Super 20? Maybe "late early" because it's pre-Eastlake? All I know is that it has a great sound, and intonation is well-behaved.