The Forgotten American Manufacturer

[LaPorte]

E.A. Couturier was a gorgeous cornet player and a respected manufacturer of brass (conical bore patent).

The fact that he was a manufacturer of fine saxophones, too, is not well known.

Is anybody interested in info/discussion about

history
series
technical details
stencilling companies
serial numbers/years of manufacturing
patent info
advertisement
sound
etc.?

Please let me know.

Felix

[Walter Webb]

Yes. I am interested.
Someday I will buy one and want to know the details, like how to spot one in the wild, which models were made, and under what names. Are they like other stencils, where the knockoff is a bit cheaper and lacking features?
Walter

[jazzbug1]

I am very intrested in this topic and never heard of these saxophones until Mr. LaPorte's
research, which is much appreciated. I have seen a few saophones marked "Couturier" and many marked "Lyon and Healy. They appear identical, except for the later feature of interlocking palm keys found on my Lyon and Healy "clown face" alto. I suppose most people (myself included) dismissed them as an older French-made saxophone, based on the name. I would love to see a Couturier catalog to view the saxophones. I just finished a Lyon and Healy Buescher stencil, which plays very well. These are easy to spot, as they have the Buescher patent date (1915) on the back.

[Jorns Bergenson]

I would love to read some more infomation about Couturier, unfortunately I don't have anything to add but I do love saxophone manufacturer history.

Not to stray too far off topic, but one thing that is often seen is Couturier stencils that are incorrectly attributed to Martin due to the bevelled tone holes. For instance, there's a soprano on JunkDude's site stencilled "J.H. Troup" that he calls a Martin stencil, but it is obviously not made by Martin. Is this a Couturier stencil?

https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=151

[LaPorte]

I would love to read some more infomation about Couturier, unfortunately I don't have anything to add but I do love saxophone manufacturer history.

Not to stray too far off topic, but one thing that is often seen is Couturier stencils that are incorrectly attributed to Martin due to the bevelled tone holes. For instance, there's a soprano on JunkDude's site stencilled "J.H. Troup" that he calls a Martin stencil, but it is obviously not made by Martin. Is this a Couturier stencil?

https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=151

You've just added a valuable info to the topic 'Couturier stencils', as this soprano saxophone is indeed made by the E.A.Couturier Band Instrument Company, which can be proven by several features. I plan to talk about details in a separate 'Couturier stencil thread'.

I hope there will be an own title for 'E.A.Couturier' on SOTW as well as for 'Holton'. As Lyon&Healy is the successor of Couturier, it makes sense to combine both in one title: > Other A-M > E.A.Couturier/Lyon&Healy > The Forgotten Manufacturer (e.g.).

Saxophones made for L&H by other companies (e.g. Buescher), like Mr. jazzbug mentioned could be discussed within that category.

I vote that every American manufacturer gets his own title, 'York&Sons' (Michigan), too.

[Harri Rautiainen]

Let me come back to this,

[JayeSF]

Aaaaaaaw, crap....now I'm gonna have to go buy another saxophone....

[LaPorte]

Aaaaaaaw, crap....now I'm gonna have to go buy another saxophone....

Bruce Bailey has two for sale ...

[JayeSF]

ooooof....thanks......

BTW...are you a drug dealer on the side....?????


:TGNCHK:

[soybean]

Well this is all good. Since Harri himself posted, it appears there may soon be an area to discuss Couturier. Now if I can just learn to spell it correctly.;)

York is another interesting make. I saw a professional alto on eBay a few years ago. Too bad I didn't save the photos.

[JayeSF]

Spell it ? How's about just pronounce it ?

Yorks....yeah, they are kinda on eFlay fairly often...I get the sense from looking at them that they may have used a few different mfr's, though. But they do tend to go for cheeeeep....

[bruce bailey]

Yes I DO have 2 Altos for sale!!!

[Walter Webb]

Yes I DO have 2 Altos for sale!!!

Post a link with pix, please.

[bruce bailey]

Here is the gold plated one with the Pan engraving and double hinged octave key. Original pads, mouthpiece and case. It plays but really needs new pads.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lyonhealyg/

Silver one needs a complete redo. Bell lip has a crease that needs to be repaired.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lhaltos/

[LaPorte]

York is another interesting make. I saw a professional alto on eBay a few years ago. Too bad I didn't save the photos.

Would you call this a 'professional'?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-York-Alto-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ360157899309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53db156a2d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

'Life is too short for long tones'. This evening I heard a great concert with Roscoe Mitchell. He doesn't care shortening his life by long tones.:D

[JayeSF]

Here is the gold plated one with the Pan engraving and double hinged octave key. Original pads, mouthpiece and case. It plays but really needs new pads.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lyonhealyg/

Silver one needs a complete redo. Bell lip has a crease that needs to be repaired.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12157552@N02/tags/lhaltos/

Bruce, I sent you a message.

Can someone just give me a very abbreviated version of how Couturier became L & H ? Was Mr. Couurier still involved in L & H ?

[LaPorte]

Can someone just give me a very abbreviated version of how Couturier became L & H ?

"1916, Couturier formed his own company with investors, bought out Seidel Co. in Elkhart (anybody seen any instruments by William Seidel?) and moved there in 1918 (maybe late '17 still searching) moved to LaPorte in Oct. 1918 and went into receivership Oct. 4,1923. Lyon & Healy bought the factory in 1924 and continued to make saxophones and trumpets ... in LaPorte (marked Chicago) until April 1928 when they sold the equipment to Holton.
The last Couturier serial numbers were late 10,000, apparently L&H continued the series and went to about 19,000, then made some with 200 and 201,000 serial numbers." (Steve Mumford)

[Walter Webb]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-York-Alto-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ360157899309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53db156a2d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

I understand York made some saxes, and used various stencils too. Is it possible that this was made Couturier? It has two of the hallmarks that I look for to identify a Cout.: The scalloped G# pinky table key, and the earlobe shaped low C key lever. Other Cout. hallmarks are: linked palm keys , a Mercedes triangle low C keyguard (like Conn), beveled tone holes, and a long 3rd side key.

[LaPorte]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-York-Alto-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ360157899309QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53db156a2d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

I understand York made some saxes, and used various stencils too. Is it possible that this was made Couturier? It has two of the hallmarks that I look for to identify a Cout.: The scalloped G# pinky table key, and the earlobe shaped low C key lever. Other Cout. hallmarks are: linked palm keys , a Mercedes triangle low C keyguard (like Conn), beveled tone holes, and a long 3rd side key.

This one is York made. York made saxophones also for other companies, not vice versa.

How to identify a Couturier and/or a Lyon&Healy saxophone stencilled by other companies (some are trademarks, no stencils!) will be examined when we have a 'Couturier stencil thread' (e.g. Couturier did not use Mercedes triangle low C keygards and the Mercedes triangle low C keygards on L&H saxophones are different from those Conn made).

[jazzbug1]

I have seen Buescher stencils marked "York". These look like early 1920s. The later 20s Yorks were of their own design and a C melody I restored was a very strong player. The York-built saxophones had the tonehole stacks in one long pre-built strip which was the aligned and soldered over the body, matching the holes in the body. This was quite unusual for its day and a large amount of metal went into the horn. York (like Holton) never seemed to promote their saxophones at the professional level and although they play very well, the Yorks are at the bottom of the EBay prices. Maybe we could have a York thread. The York C melody I had featured a small bore like a Buescher, with quite a projection. There is a well-researched website on Yorks and they deserve some discussion.

[Walter Webb]

Here is a beauty of a Lyon&Healy Couturier, with just one great foto: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280351415366&fromMakeTrack=true

The seller thinks it's a Martin because of the beveled tone holes, which is understandable given the Forgotten status of Couturier. He says the gold plate was covered with lacquer, originally, except for the masked off bell engraving area. I asked for more fotos. I wish it was a C melody.

[NissanMarkVII]

That's funny. It has Couturier etched right on it, and he still claims a Martin stencil!

[bruce bailey]

A bit pricey however...

[jmoen3]

I just came into one of these horns. Its a piece of junk but i plan to fix it up.

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/serial-numbers.htm

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/gallery/lyonhealy-own-couturier-cmel.htm

This claims that it is in fact a martin stencil. But it also has some conn similarities.

[bruce bailey]

I think many listings assume the wide soldered tone holes make it a Martin. I find the Courturiers to be darker sounding than the Martins. The IBIco stencils are a lot more Martinlike. The low C key cage on the Courturiers is quite similar to the Conns and the soprano thumb ring is very Conn/Martinish. Someone needs to buy those 2 altos I have. No time to redo!

[LaPorte]

I just came into one of these horns. Its a piece of junk but i plan to fix it up.

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/serial-numbers.htm

http://cmelodysax.co.uk/saxophones/gallery/lyonhealy-own-couturier-cmel.htm

This claims that it is in fact a martin stencil. But it also has some conn similarities.

"On this sax, note the Martin style bevelled toneholes and bow protector -

PLUS the Conn style 'mercedes' Low-C guard, and the curved 'Conn' neck brace...."

A closer look shows that

1. the bevelled toneholes are not 'Martin style' and
2. the low C guard is not Conn style

I will explain the subtle differences in an according thread 'How to identify a 'Couturier' Saxophone (better: a LaPorte made saxophone).

[Walter Webb]

This has the features of a Couturier. Didn't Lyon & Healy use the name American Professional? These two Couturiers are just about the same:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-American-Professional-C-Melody-Saxophone_W0QQitemZ120430351282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ LH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0a3553b2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1205%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270404910921

This guy is a great photographer, and has posted closeups. He has dropped the price to almost nothing, with no reserve.

[bruce bailey]

That was me doing the questions. He just couldn't be convinced that the alto was NOT a Martin.

[LaPorte]

This has the features of a Couturier. Didn't Lyon & Healy use the name American Professional? These two Couturiers are just about the same:

Right. Lyon&Healy used the term 'American Professional' as trademark. The 'Couturier Model' and the 'American Professional' of the same period of time (1924/1925) are virtually the same. More details will follow when new titles are created on SOTW.

Felix

[jmoen3]

Will this sudden surge of information help me to find a neck for my c mel Lyon and Healy Courturier model? I sure hope so. I have plenty of time while I fix it up though lol.

[bruce bailey]

First off, try fitting some Buescher, Martin, curved Conn necks and see what works. Then you will know what you may be able to substitute.

[Walter Webb]

Regarding the Neckless Couturier: Second off, try measuring the receiver socket and asking Steve at Aquilasax.com if on of his Holton or Conn replacements will fit, or is close enough to have your tech fit it.

[jmoen3]

Alright, I just calipered the interior of neck reciever and got .987" or 25.07mm. Anyone know off hand if thats a close measurement to any neck sizes? I've contacted steve before (before I knew the model) and he said it was probably buescher and he didn't have anything. Should I re-email him now that I know more about it?

And Bruce, I wish I could try out some c-mel necks and such, but its hard for me here. There are few music shops, and they only really carry standard model saxophones, SATB. I have yet to find anyone locally who even knows about a c-mel saxophone. It would involve me ordering them and trying them, and Thats a little much hassle, especially since the horn isn't working yet.

[LaPorte]

Will this sudden surge of information help me to find a neck for my c mel Lyon and Healy Courturier model? I sure hope so. I have plenty of time while I fix it up though lol.

Alright, I just calipered the interior of neck reciever and got .987" or 25.07mm. ... It would involve me ordering them and trying them, and Thats a little much hassle, especially since the horn isn't working yet.

Ask him: Mr. cmelodysax. He can tell you exactly what works and what doesn't. My experience with alto saxophones: Only Couturier/Lyon&Healy (and stenclis) tenons of the necks fit the socket of the body. It can't be replaced by any other maker. The position of the upper octave key tonehole differs, too.

Felix

[jmoen3]

Ask him: Mr. cmelodysax. He can tell you exactly what works and what doesn't. My experience with alto saxophones: Only Couturier/Lyon&Healy (and stenclis) tenons of the necks fit the socket of the body. It can't be replaced by any other maker. The position of the upper octave key tonehole differs, too.

Felix

Thanks Felix. I will send him another email, but I really hope you're wrong on this one or I'm in for a LONG trial of looking for a neck.

[bruce bailey]

I just measured a Conn at 24.79mm and a Buescher series II at 23.88 so they won't work. I think that the Aquilasax one is your best bet but L&H altos are a lot bigger than most too. Maybe you should just buy another horn as the new neck, repairs, etc will eat you up. I sell C Melodies for $350 in fair playing condition with all the original stuff and a really nice one with new pads usually runs about $650 shipped. Ebay is still a good place to find cheapies so keep watching.

[jmoen3]

I just measured a Conn at 24.79mm and a Buescher series II at 23.88 so they won't work. I think that the Aquilasax one is your best bet but L&H altos are a lot bigger than most too. Maybe you should just buy another horn as the new neck, repairs, etc will eat you up. I sell C Melodies for $350 in fair playing condition with all the original stuff and a really nice one with new pads usually runs about $650 shipped. Ebay is still a good place to find cheapies so keep watching.

Well the point of this horn is to completely fix it up myself. I was hoping I might be able to play it after a while. I'll see what I can find. I got this horn for 20 dollars :).

Some of my measurements were a little weird, as it varied between 24.8mm to 25.07mm. I think that is roughly accurate and maybe worth a try :). I'll have to look at some of them.

I'll also email aquilasax again. I hope I can find one without having to buy a new horn, because then I'll probably be stealing a neck from a better looking horn and No one wants to do that :D!

[MAXSAX]

Here are a few photos of a restored Lyon and Healy American Professional bass sax. I never could find a solid answer as to who actually put it together and when or where it was made or the resto done. I've never seen another like it. It seemed to have a collection of different manufacturers parts, keys, guards, braces, ferrules etc.. I would be curious to find out more about this maker. Looking foward to your thread.

[JayeSF]

That's an insanely gorgeous horn...how does she play ? Did you do the rehab or dd you take it to someone ????

BTW...what's Obrador Party ?...just curious....? Only one Obrador I have ever heard of...

[jazzbug1]

Lyon and Healy bought stencils from Buescher and Buescher was a prominent (along with Conn) maker of bass saxes, so without seeing details, that's my guess.

[MAXSAX]

That's an insanely gorgeous horn...how does she play ? Did you do the rehab or dd you take it to someone ????

BTW...what's Obrador Party ?...just curious....? Only one Obrador I have ever heard of...

Thanks Jaye When I got the horn it had already been relaquered but it would not play. I disassembled it and replaced poor fitting pads etc. and adjusted it to top playing condition. It sounded and played great. I sold it on ebay the buyer was very happy with it and the price he paid. I guess at the time there was some ebay scam involving bass saxes. Unfortunately for me he was the only bidder. Plus I think it being a Lyon & Healy and not to much info on this model might have made some think twice. --- As for Obrador it was a originally a 7 piece ( piano, bass, drums, guitar, percussion, and two horns ) jazz/ latin/ funky original music workshop based in Olympia, Washington started in 1976 that lasted until 2006. The band became an 8 piece adding another percussionist who could sing sometimes later sported a 4 piece horn section making it a 10 piece. It played throughout the northwest at various clubs and festivals. It played a lot of benefit events for organizations such as Greenpeace and the Crabshell alliance. The group opened for Charles Mingus once and for a group composed of Eddie Gomez, John Abercrombie,Lester Bowie and, Jack Dejohnette, also opened for duo of Don Cherry and Colin Walcott. I was a one of the original members but I left the group in 1983 and moved south. The band had a few records and recordings the first called 'More Odd Jobs" featured local saxophone legend Bert Wilson. The band also traveled and played in Cuba as part of a cultural exchange during the Clinton Administration. They formed the Guanabacoa Project which was a project of buying and collecting donated musical instruments and donating them to schools in the town of Guanabacoa in Cuba. I got to travel to Guanabacoa to repair musical instruments with two other techs for a week as a part of this project. It was one of the most rewarding and memorable experiences of my life. Most of the members still live in the Olympia area and play locally. Is this the same Obrador you had in mind.

[LaPorte]

Here are a few photos of a restored Lyon and Healy American Professional bass sax. I never could find a solid answer as to who actually put it together and when or where it was made or the resto done. I've never seen another like it. It seemed to have a collection of different manufacturers parts, keys, guards, braces, ferrules etc.. I would be curious to find out more about this maker. Looking foward to your thread.

Exactly like Mr. jazzbug said. This bass saxophone is made by Buescher around or prior to 1920. The serial number would tell the year of manufacture.

[JayeSF]

Actually, Max...I was thinkin' of Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador~ the progressive presidential candidate in the last Mexican elections who was the frontrunner throughout the entire campaign and who apparently had won on election day, only to have the presidency handed over by the country's supereme court to the ruling conservative party's candidate....(look at where the country is now, btw...)

I like your Obrador story much, much better...your's is life-affirming....

That's cool that you do that....the Cuba trips and stuff....

Regardless of it being a Buescher or otherwise...that's a cool looking horn...nice job on the fix-up.

[MAXSAX]

Actually, Max...I was thinkin' of Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador~ the progressive presidential candidate in the last Mexican elections who was the frontrunner throughout the entire campaign and who apparently had won on election day, only to have the presidency handed over by the country's supereme court to the ruling conservative party's candidate....(look at where the country is now, btw...)

I like your Obrador story much, much better...your's is life-affirming....

That's cool that you do that....the Cuba trips and stuff....

Regardless of it being a Buescher or otherwise...that's a cool looking horn...nice job on the fix-up.
Thanks Jaye for the kind words. Obrador in Spanish means worker or workshop and obra can mean a work ,construction, theatre play, or musical composition. It was exactly what we were all about. A labor of love so to speak. As a person of Mexican heritage I was curious about Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador and his chances of winning. Interesting how what happened with their election sounds so familiar to what happened here not so long ago.

[MAXSAX]

Here are a few photos of a restored Lyon and Healy American Professional bass sax. I never could find a solid answer as to who actually put it together and when or where it was made or the resto done. I've never seen another like it. It seemed to have a collection of different manufacturers parts, keys, guards, braces, ferrules etc.. I would be curious to find out more about this maker. Looking foward to your thread.

Exactly like Mr. jazzbug said. This bass saxophone is made by Buescher around or prior to 1920. The serial number would tell the year of manufacture.

Thank you Laporte and jazzbug for confirming my guess. I thought it was a Buescher also but the ferrules which are difficult to see in the photos were multi banded and I could not find pictures that showed that style ferrule on a Buescher bass. Also there was no water key, and the touches on the keys had no pearls. Unfortunately since I sold it I erased most of the pictures of it and I don't recall the serial#.

[jmoen3]

I got a hold of steve over at Aquilasax. I was told that my measurements were very close to some of his necks, so this could be good! He didn't tell me which model of neck to get or anything, so I'm still a little bit lost, but I have plenty of time to wait while I'm trying to fix up this saxophone. Thanks for all the tips guys, and I hope the horn plays well when and if I can get her running :).

[LaPorte]

Thank you Laporte and jazzbug for confirming my guess. I thought it was a Buescher also but the ferrules which are difficult to see in the photos were multi banded and I could not find pictures that showed that style ferrule on a Buescher bass. Also there was no water key, and the touches on the keys had no pearls. Unfortunately since I sold it I erased most of the pictures of it and I don't recall the serial#.

Those multi banded joint rings are a typical feature on early Buescher saxophones in the teenth (and again for a short time in the beginning thirties on a student model). At that time the key touches of Buescher's and Conn's had no mother of pearl inlays.

[LaPorte]

I was told that my measurements were very close to some of his necks, so this could be good! He didn't tell me which model of neck to get or anything, so I'm still a little bit lost, but I have plenty of time to wait while I'm trying to fix up this saxophone. Thanks for all the tips guys, and I hope the horn plays well when and if I can get her running :).

I will try and look after possible candidates for your C melody. Which SN is stamped on?

[Walter Webb]

My surprise! I found this lil' stinker L&H in my closet, ser# 122516, (pics attached below, if it works). I bought it about a year ago, thinking it was a Martin. The pads are ancient white, the tarnish mostly black, some tiny dings, and it's pretty unplayable with so many leaks. It is identical (slight engraving variation) to this one that just sold for $168.:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120430351282 (ser#16711)

And this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=270404910921 (ser#13524)

The factory of Couturier/LaPorte must have been commonly making horns with these features between ser #s 12516 and 16711

[jmoen3]

The serial on my horn is 134XX. I'm not intersted in buying the neck right away, but just interested in looking for my options now :).

[JayeSF]

Interesting how what happened with their election sounds so familiar to what happened here not so long ago.

...si, si...the script had already been written....

....OK, OK, I'll stop now....

[JayeSF]

Thank you Laporte and jazzbug for confirming my guess. I thought it was a Buescher also but the ferrules which are difficult to see in the photos were multi banded and I could not find pictures that showed that style ferrule on a Buescher bass. Also there was no water key, and the touches on the keys had no pearls. Unfortunately since I sold it I erased most of the pictures of it and I don't recall the serial#.

Those multi banded joint rings are a typical feature on early Buescher saxophones in the teenth (and again for a short time in the beginning thirties on a student model). At that time the key touches of Buescher's and Conn's had no mother of pearl inlays.

Okay...so...L & H's were made by Buescher...and Couturier became L & H...and early Holtons are not made by Holton, but by L & H (or is that Couturier) ?

Everything's so clear, now.....:scratch: :banghead:

[bruce bailey]

Pretty much BUT I have seen L&H saxes made by King. Just thought I should clutter things up even more. One horn we haven't talked about is that L&H soprano that looks like a saxello. I have heard they are not too good. Google Lyon & Healy saxophones and there is a site that has a catalog printed online with all the finishes, text, drawings, etc.

[LaPorte]

okay...so...l & h's were made by buescher...and couturier became l & h...and early holtons are not made by holton, but by l & h (or is that couturier)?...

1. Prior to 1924 Lyon&Healy saxophones were mostly made by Buescher, some by King (Cmelody "Inspiration") and Conn (curved soprano, "Inspiration").

2. Couturier (LaPorte) became L&H 1924.

3. Holton purchased the complete LaPorte-tools for making saxophones 1928 from Lyon&Healy. That's the beginning of the first Collegiate (CollegiateI) made by Frank Holton, see model list.

The whole story will fill some threads for a couple of months ...:D;)

Felix

[LaPorte]

Pretty much BUT I have seen L&H saxes made by King. Just thought I should clutter things up even more. One horn we haven't talked about is that L&H soprano that looks like a saxello. ...
... "The Perfect Curved Soprano". There are some more horns we haven't talked about. I'll wait until Harri Rautiainen has decided on the structure.

Felix

[LaPorte]

The factory of Couturier/LaPorte must have been commonly making horns with these features between ser #s 12516 and 16711

I'll come back to that topic. Very good photos!

Felix

[LaPorte]

Pretty much BUT I have seen L&H saxes made by King. Just thought I should clutter things up even more. One horn we haven't talked about is that L&H soprano that looks like a saxello. ...
... "The Perfect Curved Soprano". There are some more horns we haven't talked about. I'll wait until Harri Rautiainen has decided on the structure.

Felix


http://drrick.com/Vintage%20Sax%20Collection.htm
Number 8.: King 'Saxello'
Number 9.: 'Perfect Curved Soprano' made by Lyon&Healy 1925 in La Porte! Not made by Martin !!

Felix

[LaPorte]

Lyon&Healy's "Perfect Curved Soprano" (semi-curved soprano):

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/27811z.jpg

source: www.vintage-instruments.com

[JayeSF]

THAT is very cool !!! Providing it's intonation was OK, I sorta wish that that shape had become standardized. I think both the straight and conventionally curved soprano profiles leave something to be desired....

[LaPorte]

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/lyonhealy.jpg

[LaPorte]

http://s546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/lyonhealy.jpg
The thread takes a break with Steve Bowie playing the Lyon&Healy semi-curved soprano.

http://blogojazz.blogspot.com/2008/09/grand-avenue-festival.html

[JayeSF]

Yeah, there it is...good image. That's what I mean...it just looks more comfortable to hold and play than either a straight or conventionall curved one....

[LaPorte]

The history of saxophone production by E.A. Couturier will be continued very likely in October. Thank you for your patience.:)

Felix

[jazzbug1]

Thank you, Mr. LaPorte for all your work. It is deeply appreciated. I have played vintage horns for 40 years, but never heard of a Couturier until your valued contributions. I have since restored a C melody and an alto. Both were very impressive horns. I see Lyon and Healy C melodys finally fetching good EBay prices, perhaps due to this thread.

[LaPorte]

Circumstances are forcing me to cut back my activities at present.

[soybean]

Thank you, Mr. LaPorte for all your work. It is deeply appreciated.I agree. LaPorte (Felix) has already changed the history of Holton on my "Serial number Registry" thread. Now he may do the same thing for Curturier and York.

[soybean]

Circumstances are forcing me to cut back my activities at present.

"Why is it that, train as we may for breath control, and practice as we will for technical perfection, we .. must remain at the mercy of an imperfect instrument?" (E.A.Couturier)

I hope you are in good health. That is a very interesting quote from Mr Couturier.

[LaPorte]

On request I bring forward following matter:

How to identify a LaPorte made saxophone.

All following statements are based on my own examinations and researches.

I recommend not to rely on one feature alone as there are similiarities which can be found on saxophones of different manufacturers as well as differences which easily could be changed e.g. keyguards. Note that there are some positive related features but also features which exclude a LaPorte origin.

And of course there are features that can be identified on good photos but there are some - and that are the most reliable - which requires the real object of examination e.g. measurements of the body!

All LaPorte made saxophones

1. have split bell keys except straight sopranos.

2. are lacking front F.

3. have thick simple bevelled toneholes (handcrafted, therefore slightly varying in shape) soldered onto the body. I call them „LaPorte Type“ as most saxophones made since 1922 equipped with this type of bevelled toneholes were produced in LaPorte. Saxophones produced at the same time (twenties) by Martin have thick bevelled toneholes, too. But unlike those made in Laporte they have usually an inward sloping rim.

What makes things more complicated: Martin saxophones made between 1918 and ca.1921 and some stencils are lacking this feature, they look like the LaPorte type ones! So not all saxophones with 'LaPorte Type' toneholes are made in LaPorte! Vice versa: Saxophones with toneholes other than 'LaPorte Type' are not made in LaPorte.

4. have serial numbers in the range of 6,xxx and 19,xxx as well as 200,xxx and 203,xxx (except Holton Collegiate I which are not considered here). Possibly there are very rare exceptions. Still researching.

5. All numbers are written in a straight line e.g. with an „A“ above for alto saxophone and an „L“ beneath for „Low Pitch“. There never can be found the term „LOW PITCH“ like stamped on Martin made saxophones. Since 1926 (1925 on the 'Perfect Curved Soprano') "PAT APPLD FOR“ was supplemented.

6. LaPorte made saxophone bodies are larger bored than any other contemporary make. Trying (e.g.) to fix a martin neck on a LaPorte saxophone, you will be very surprised how much the difference in diameter is!

7. LaPorte made saxophone bodies (comparing examinations on numerous alto saxophones) are longer than any other make. Accordingly their necks are shorter (otherwise they would have a pitch which is much too low).

There are more indications which I will explain when presenting some info about model history.

Felix

[soybean]

Wonderful!

Is it time for a Couturier area here?

[soybean]

(deleted)

[minous]

I'm really excited to read this thread. I have a true curved soprano by the brand name "Harmony" that I have no idea of its make. It's stamped "low pitch", is made in Elkhart, and has the "scalloped" bevels around each tone hole. The samples that have been displayed within this thread (of various breeds) are the closest I've seen to mine from a conceptual design point of view. I haven't played it much and in fact was once considering turning it into a table lamp. :shock: But I've never had the heart to do so. I'll post a few pics when I can and maybe one of you could confirm the make of this horn.

More to come.

[soybean]

I'd like to see that. How high does the keying go? (High E, High F?)

[minous]

Here you go. Pardon the pics...not very good, but it should give you this gist of the horn. A little cleaning, love and attention and maybe she'll play. I'd really like to find out the actual maker though. Any ideas?

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150578.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150587.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150585.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150583.jpg

[Walter Webb]

Not that I'm an expert, and it is extra hard to identify sopranos, but I see the so-called "Pontiac" ribbed body tube joint bands that suggest Martin. Also, Martin had rather large block capital letters proclaiming "LOW PITCH." Pontiac autos had a wide strip down the center of the hood for decades, up till the mid 50s, similar to those.

[QUOTE=minous; I'd really like to find out the actual maker though. Any ideas?

http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150578.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150587.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150585.jpg
http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz300/minous_bucket/P9150583.jpg[/QUOTE]

[LaPorte]

... I see the so-called "Pontiac" ribbed body tube joint bands that suggest Martin. Also, Martin had rather large block capital letters proclaiming "LOW PITCH."

I agree.

BTW no regular shaped curved sopranos were built in LaPorte. Only straight ones and the 'Perfect Curved Soprano' (1925/1926) made by Lyon&Healy also sold under the tradename "American Professional".

[LaPorte]

I would love to read some more infomation about Couturier, unfortunately I don't have anything to add but I do love saxophone manufacturer history.

Not to stray too far off topic, but one thing that is often seen is Couturier stencils that are incorrectly attributed to Martin due to the bevelled tone holes. For instance, there's a soprano on JunkDude's site stencilled "J.H. Troup" that he calls a Martin stencil, but it is obviously not made by Martin. Is this a Couturier stencil?

https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=151
New researches make it nessesary to revise my answer given in Reply #5.

Some special features indicate this soprano as being made in LaPorte, but the serial number - given it is correctly told by the seller - speaks against my conclusion. The addition 'LP' beneath the SN
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/lg-VintageUsed-MartinStencilSoprano.jpg
neither indicates a Martin nor a LaPorte made origin. Still searching .. .

[minous]

... I see the so-called "Pontiac" ribbed body tube joint bands that suggest Martin. Also, Martin had rather large block capital letters proclaiming "LOW PITCH."

I agree.

BTW no regular shaped curved sopranos were built in LaPorte. Only straight ones and the 'Perfect Curved Soprano' (1925/1926) made by Lyon&Healy also sold under the tradename "American Professional".

Thanks guys, very much. My horn's "LOW PITCH" is printed exactly as you suggest. And since reading your answers I've found another "Harmony" soprano listed in a post under the Martin section. That instrument is a straight sample, but nonetheless it gives support to your thoughts. Again, thanks for the insight.

[Woosax]

Thanks for all the info. Attached are some pics of my Courtier soprano. The bell says "Made by Courtier LaPorte Ind".

[LaPorte]

Thanks for all the info. Attached are some pics of my Courtier soprano. The bell says "Made by Courtier LaPorte Ind".

Your Bb sprano is an important piece of saxophone history as it bears one of the highest serial numbers (#10468) stamped on a Couturier (LaPorte) made saxophone engraved:

Made by
Couturier
LaPorte IND

That means it was made just before the company went into receivership Oct. 1923. Nearly all saxphones produced since then by Couturier were ordered by Lyon&Healy until the Couturier Band Instrument Company was sold to L&H 1924.

Thank you for your input. Nice photos!

[LaPorte]

Starting an own company: The 'E. A. Couturier Co., Ltd.'

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Kopievon120602313.jpg

soon to be continued ..

[LaPorte]

The photo #80 shows a part of the bell engraving of a tenor saxophone, one of the first bearing the name 'COUTURIER' and the addition 'LTD'. It's a negative, which shows the letters better than the normal view.

Let's have a look at some historical background:

"In 1916, Couturier, Melvin G. Lathrop, and William N. Barlow opened their own business, "E. A. Couturier Co., Ltd.," with the intention of producing their own line of conical bore instruments. Couturier transferred all of his patents from J. W. York & Sons to his new company. According to their catalogue of 1916, his company did produce an entire line of conical bore instruments, including the saxophone. In 1918, the firm moved from New York to LaPorte, Indiana, and was bought by Lyon & Healy in 1923. It operated until 1929." (Richard I. Schwartz, 2001)

The bottom line is well researched. Diggin' deeper we will learn new aspects which makes it nessesary to modify the summary given above.

[LaPorte]

"Couturier wasn't just some random nut. He was an amazing musician who could play things on the cornet that nobody can play today. I'll extend a standing challenge - I have the music! He built a company that produced the full range of brass instruments and also saxophones. All the brass instruments were made on the "conical bore" principal, even the trombone. He had a dream and he made it happen." (Steve Mumford)

For those who like to know some more about the musician and inventor E.A. Couturier:
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/thecornetcompendium/well-known_soloists_co-cz.html
and
http://www.rjmartz.com/horns/Couturier_056/

In the following posts I'm concentrating on the period 1916 until July 1922. The main question will be: Is it correct - as claimed above - that Couturier's saxophone production started 1916?

[soybean]

[I]"Couturier wasn't just some random nut. He was an amazing musician who could play things on the cornet that nobody can play today.Fascinating stuff! That conical french horn is amazing!

[VintageSaxGuy]

I was happy that I ran across this thread, just today I brought home a Couturier soprano that has the serial number of 104XX. Looking at the pictures of it before taking the plunge I also made the amateur mistake of assuming it was a Martin, but when I was picking it up I realized it was a different beast...thus inspiring a search which led me here! Mine is in extremely sad shape with dents and two missing keys, but I'm optimistic that it will be brought back to life. It's fun to get a new sax that inspires you to do a little research. :D

[LaPorte]

I was happy that I ran across this thread, just today I brought home a Couturier soprano that has the serial number of 104XX. Looking at the pictures of it before taking the plunge I also made the amateur mistake of assuming it was a Martin, but when I was picking it up I realized it was a different beast...thus inspiring a search which led me here! Mine is in extremely sad shape with dents and two missing keys, but I'm optimistic that it will be brought back to life. It's fun to get a new sax that inspires you to do a little research. :D

I hope you will get the Couturier soprano in good playing condition. I'm sure your efforts will be worth it.

[LaPorte]

[I]"According to their catalogue of 1916, his company did produce an entire line of conical bore instruments, including the saxophone. ..."

Contrary to that quote above reliable sources verify that Couturier's saxophone production began summer 1922 in LaPorte:

1." ... Couturier began sax production in August 1922. ..." (Saxquest Forum)

2. Lowest serial numbers found on Couturier's saxophones (own make) are around 6,5xx). They never show the "LTD" which disappeared 1921. (Horn-u-Copia).


3. "The recent decision of the E. A. Couturier Band Instrument
Co. to add a line of saxophones has been instrumental in lining up a large number of dealers who were considering the Couturier instruments but needed the saxophones." ( THE MUSIC TRADE REVIEW AUGUST 19, 1922)


So what saxophones may have been shown in the catalogue of 1916?

[LaPorte]

Once I found this bare brass tenor saxophone on ebay:
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/120602301.jpg

The bell says "COUTURIER" and "LTD" and more ... :
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Kopievon120602313.jpg

Serial number:
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/120602312.jpg

Undoubtedly a Conn New Wonder made in ... 1916!

[soybean]

A Conn. Of course!

[cpete]

I have a very nicely engraved alto that I haven't yet restored, it's a beauty. I guess I'll have a look and post info for you guys. The horn looks very "high end"

[LaPorte]

I have a very nicely engraved alto that I haven't yet restored, it's a beauty. I guess I'll have a look and post info for you guys. The horn looks very "high end"
"High end". Yes; it's definately a Couturier! ;)
I'll give away how to play the top tones - after you will have it properly restored. ;) Mr. Jazzbug will be the judge. :D

[VintageSaxGuy]

I hope you will get the Couturier soprano in good playing condition. I'm sure your efforts will be worth it.

My original plan was to put it in line behind a few alto's and a tenor I recently bought...but I couldn't keep my hands off of it and now it is stripped of its keys and mostly cleaned/polished on the outside and partially cleaned internally.

Right now I'm just debating if I want my local and unknown tech to do the dent removal for me, or if I'm sending it out somewhere known and trusted. After that, I need to find someone to fab. the missing bits I need and then I'm all set to give it the overhaul it deserves!

LaPorte, do you happen to have scans of any original Couturier ads that you could share?

[LaPorte]

LaPorte, do you happen to have scans of any original Couturier ads that you could share?

I'm sorry, I don't know any ads showing a Couturier soprano except one Lyon&Healy catalogue (1926) after L&H had changed the keywork.

Apparently the first soprano saxophones marked "Made by/Couturier/LaPorte IND" belong to the last instruments produced by Couturier just before he went into receivership Oct. 1923. L&H didn't change the keywork on his 'Couturier Model' until ca.1925. Later models have different keywork, but the body did not change.

I recommend to ask woosax - who owns a Couturier soprano SN #10,468 which is very close to your's - to give you photos of the parts missing on your soprano sax. He has attached some photos in his post #78 in this thread.

Thanks for all the info. Attached are some pics of my Courtier soprano. The bell says "Made by Courtier LaPorte Ind".

Hope that helps a bit. Please let us know.

[cpete]

I have a very nicely engraved alto that I haven't yet restored, it's a beauty. I guess I'll have a look and post info for you guys. The horn looks very "high end"
"High end". Yes; it's definately a Couturier! ;)
I'll give away how to play the top tones - after you will have it properly restored. ;) Mr. Jazzbug will be the judge. :D

You need not worry there, It will be better than new and meticulously air tight and regulated, but you are right, no front F on her. I can do without everything but that, so I guess I'll be selling it.

[soybean]

… no front F on her. I can do without everything but that, so I guess I'll be selling it.It is not too hard to add a front F. Mal 2 or one of the guys here could tell you how to do it.

[LaPorte]

... I guess I'll be selling it.

Playing it might be dangerous to the intention of selling it.:D . I might sell my entire collection except my 'Couturier' alto.

[cpete]

... I guess I'll be selling it.

Playing it might be dangerous to the intention of selling it.:D . I might sell my entire collection except my 'Couturier' alto.

Really?
Ok I got it out. Yep it's gorgeous horn. Marked Lyon and Healy on top of the extensive floral engraving all over the bell and Couturier Model at the bottom of the bell. Here is the weird thing. It has nearly Martin style beveled toneholes, but Conn style Mercedes Keyguard! Pearl Keys and rollers, serial number reads

A
13918
L
Really remarkable looking horn, built like a tank. What do you think this is?

[LaPorte]

Really?

Yes, I've virtually stopped collecting saxophones. I would keep my L&H 'Couturier model' alto, no beauty but a great player - my most favoured alto - , a soprano (G.H.Hüller), and my L&H baritone 'Artist model' (project horn). I would like to test a Couturier straight soprano. All others I don't really need, although there are nice players among them.

[LaPorte]

... Yep it's gorgeous horn. Marked Lyon and Healy on top of the extensive floral engraving all over the bell and Couturier Model at the bottom of the bell. ... Pearl Keys and rollers, serial number reads
A
13918
L
Really remarkable looking horn, built like a tank. What do you think this is?
Yes, you own one of that unique alto's, manufactured by the Lyon&Healy Co. ca. summer 1924* in their newly purchased factory in LaPorte, designed 1922 by the genius Ernst Albert Couturier - like the engraving 'Couturier Model' refers to.
Apparently it has a "DeLuxe" finish, "bell exquisitely engraved in a pattern of great beauty. Finger tips and rollers are of beautiful selected pearl" (L&H, 1926)

This alto has imo exceptional tonal qualities which I couldn't find on any other contemporary make. I wouldn't call this an alto for universal use. But if you like a rich and expressive tone, try it. I combine it with a Yana metal9 and a Vd. java reed 2, which allows to bring out subtleties as well as an 'unlimited' dynamic range.

Good photos of that rare find are highly appreciated, especially when I begin the chapter "The Couturier Model" probably in november 2009.


*based on my currently unreleased reconstructed Serial Number chart

[LaPorte]

... Here is the weird thing. It has nearly Martin style beveled toneholes, but Conn style Mercedes Keyguard! ...

I would like to remind about the introduction of my contribution #68: "How To Identfy A LaPorte Made Saxophone":

"I recommend not to rely on one feature alone as there are similiarities which can be found on saxophones of different manufacturers as well as differences which easily could be changed e.g. keyguards. Note that there are some positive related features but also features which exclude a LaPorte origin."

and

"All LaPorte made saxophones ...

3. have thick simple bevelled toneholes (handcrafted, therefore slightly varying in shape) soldered onto the body. I call them „LaPorte Type“ as most saxophones made since 1922 equipped with this type of bevelled toneholes were produced in LaPorte. Saxophones produced at the same time (twenties) by Martin have thick bevelled toneholes, too. But unlike those made in Laporte they have usually an inward sloping rim.

What makes things more complicated: Martin saxophones made between 1918 and ca.1921 and some stencils are lacking this feature, they look like the LaPorte type ones! So not all saxophones with 'LaPorte Type' toneholes are made in LaPorte! Vice versa: Saxophones with toneholes other than 'LaPorte Type' are not made in LaPorte."

Reality is mostly complex and chaotic, sometimes more than we want to realize.

The presented results are partly based on my own researches and examinations and I usually tell my sources. A good portion of my insights are based on the excellent work of other author's who were kind enough to tell their sources, especially Steve Mumford. Some valuable information I've found here on SOTW, especially contributed by Bruce Bailey. Many thanks to all!

There may be different theories.

[cpete]

Wow!
Thanks! I will move it to the top of my restore list.

[binsax]

I like a lot the Coutorier story and now I now there is another gret vintange horn.
I surfed internet ad sow this:
https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=1808
Now I thimkthat this sax is not a stencil but a genuine Couturier.
Am I Right ?

[LaPorte]

I like a lot the Coutorier story and now I now there is another gret vintange horn.
I surfed internet ad sow this:
https://www.junkdude.com/ProductDetail.aspx?id_product=1808
Now I thimkthat this sax is not a stencil but a genuine Couturier.
Am I Right ?

Yes, this is a genuine Couturier sax, no stencil.

[LaPorte]

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/palacegaragelnclnway_000-1-1-1.jpg

Saxophones made in LaPorte

Model History

List of contents

is in the state of revision, therefore
deleted. New sources found.

To be continued soon.

[LaPorte]

ACCURACY RULES COUTURIER PLANT

President E. A. Couturier Tells of Remarkable
Precision Necessary in Making Conical Bore
Brass Instruments—Production Growing

LA PORTE, IND., March 1.—"One one-thousandth
of an inch is a mile at the Couturier plant,"
stated E. A. Couturier, president of the E. A.
Couturier Band Instrument Co., to a representa-
tive of The Review, in describing some of the
new machinery he has just installed for per-
fecting the conical bore that is the patented
feature of the Couturier instruments. In ex-
plaining his remark, Mr. Couturier took the
writer through the factory, demonstrating the
wonderful new machinery which draws out the
brass to delicately small fractions of an inch.
The utmost care is used by trained workmen
to see that each instrument is perfect before it
is sent to the finishing department. ...

"The conical bore method is the logical way
of producing the proper tone effect from a
brass instrument. Having studied the scien-
tific construction of band instruments for a
great many years I have applied to the con-
struction of Couturier instruments the theory
that a sound wave expands as it travels. This
is an absolute physical fact. It is based on a
law in physics and the principle is strictly ad-
hered to in the manufacture of every instru-
ment that goes out from this factory."

(Music Trade Review, March 5, 1921)

[LaPorte]

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/palacegaragelnclnway_000-1-1-1.jpg
http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-10-0817-58-58.jpg
The Couturier factory ca.1920

Comparing both pictures you will notice that the garages passed from sight completely. 'PALACE GARAGE' was replaced by 'E. A. Couturier Co. Ltd / Band Instrument MFR'. Apparently the whole building belonged to the Couturier Band Instrument Company then, not only the upper floor.

Considering the extension of the subject I decided to open a new thread on the model history of the Couturier saxophone soon. 'The Forgotten American Manufacturer' will be continued for general company history, questions, answers and discussion .. .

[WinnSie]

Hello Mr. LaPorte, thank you for your effort.
I have this 'American Artist' alto that was sold to me as Martin stencil couple years ago but then I found a few threads mentioning Couturier and one of them suggested that American Artist was a Couturier horn.

In your post listing distinctive Couturier features you mentioned many but could you also say that most of the Couturier horns had round post base plates, mercedes-type low C keyguard, horizontal slot under the neck tightening screw, long low C-key.

Anyway, do I have a Couturier here?

[LaPorte]

Hello Mr. LaPorte, thank you for your effort.
I have this 'American Artist' alto that was sold to me as Martin stencil couple years ago but then I found a few threads mentioning Couturier and one of them suggested that American Artist was a Couturier horn.
Under the label 'American Artist' can indeed be found saxophones made by Martin. But also Couturier or Lyon&Healy/Couturier.


In your post listing distinctive Couturier features you mentioned many but could you also say that most of the Couturier horns had round post base plates, mercedes-type low C keyguard, horizontal slot under the neck tightening screw, long low C-key.

Anyway, do I have a Couturier here?

I've not included the features you've listed above as the single feature tells little about the origin. But in this particular combination it is found only on Lyon&Healy (Couturier) saxophones since 1926 (except the horizontal slot which is probably put on later). Note the L-shaped C#/G#-key which is exclusively found on L&H saxophones between 1926 and 1929. If you like to know the year of manufacture please tell me the SN.

Would you please do me a favour and take a photo from the front engraving, especially from the flower if existing, as I'm examining special details?
Thanks.

[WinnSie]

Unfortunately I don't have the saxophone at hand so I cannot look up the serial number though as far as I remember it's in 20xxxx up range.
Luckily I have the front engraving picture.
So do I then have the Lyon&Healy Couturier that is the one made after L&H had purchased Couturier? It's all a little complicated.

Regarding the horizontal slot under the tightening screw: I have a 'Supertone' alto that's in the same serial number range as this Am. Artist (sorry couldn't resist buying it, it was a bargain) and it's almost a clone of American Artist (or vice versa) and it has the same slot in the same place. Looks like factory made.

In addition (or, boy) I have a Holton Collegiate alto that's another clone of the previous two but without a slot. I didn't really buy them all intentionally as I wanted to have a Martin stencil and a genuine Holton and as a result I have this bunch of these clones :)

[LaPorte]

Unfortunately I don't have the saxophone at hand so I cannot look up the serial number though as far as I remember it's in 20xxxx up range.
Luckily I have the front engraving picture.
So do I then have the Lyon&Healy Couturier that is the one made after L&H had purchased Couturier? It's all a little complicated.

Regarding the horizontal slot under the tightening screw: I have a 'Supertone' alto that's in the same serial number range as this Am. Artist (sorry couldn't resist buying it, it was a bargain) and it's almost a clone of American Artist (or vice versa) and it has the same slot in the same place. Looks like factory made.

In addition (or, boy) I have a Holton Collegiate alto that's another clone of the previous two but without a slot. I didn't really buy them all intentionally as I wanted to have a Martin stencil and a genuine Holton and as a result I have this bunch of these clones :)

Thanks for the photo.:D

All three alto saxophones are 'Couturier' saxophones as they are designed by E.A. Couturier 1922. They were built by the E A Couturier Band Instrument Company, since 1924 under the leadership of Lyon&Healy, 1928-29/30 made by Holton in Elkhorn. Your's are made between 1926 and 1930. The exact SN's would tell it more precisely.

After receivership Oct.9 1923 the factory was under threat of closure. 1924 Lyon&Healy decided to purchase the company and production was continued until 1928, when the equipment was sold to Holton. New reliable sources indicate, that the LaPorte factory was closed 1928, then Couturier saxophone production continued in Elkhorn both as 'COLLEGIATE'-Holton and 'Lyon&Healy' until 1929/30.

Don't worry, these altos are of premium quality, imo much better than the Martin 'handcraft' at that time although that was a good one, too.:)

I will tell the details in this thread and the 'The Couturier Saxophone' thread, soon to be started.

[LaPorte]

Title of the following article:

Couturier To Double Capacity

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-11-0917-52-23.jpg
MTR January 18, 1923

"500 saxophones per month" ... that seems to be slightly exaggarated. 250 per months may be more realistic.

As we soon will see things didn't go as well for the company as suggested in that article.

[spiderjames]

This is very curious stuff. Changes our perspctive on the history of early american manufacturers and my personal sax history as well. I owned a C melody marked American Professional that I always assumed was a martin stencil. now you say American Professional was a line of Courturier? It is a bit confusing. Are you saying that Courturier made their own saxes in their plant until they were bought by Lyon and Healy? Did they not buy stencils from other manufacturers prior to this date? If the Conn made tenor shown earlier is from 1916 then it must have been stencilled for Courturier by Conn. I have seen these come up on Ebay many, many times and dismissed them as Martin stencils. If they were manufactured by Courturier in their own plant that is very interesting history.

[Walter Webb]

This is very curious stuff. Changes our perspctive on the history of early american manufacturers and my personal sax history as well. I owned a C melody marked American Professional that I always assumed was a martin stencil. now you say American Professional was a line of Courturier? It is a bit confusing. Are you saying that Courturier made their own saxes in their plant until they were bought by Lyon and Healy? Did they not buy stencils from other manufacturers prior to this date? If the Conn made tenor shown earlier is from 1916 then it must have been stencilled for Courturier by Conn. I have seen these come up on Ebay many, many times and dismissed them as Martin stencils. If they were manufactured by Courturier in their own plant that is very interesting history.

I believe there are American Professionals by Lyon&Healy that were made by others, like Beuscher. If it's a real Couturier, whether labeled so or not, it was made in LaPorte, Indiana at that factory, and is not a Martin. Confusion occurs when you see the "Mercedes" triangle guard on the low C key, which makes most people proclaim, "Conn!" when it may be Couturier. It's the beveled tone holes that give it away. Other identification cues are the scalloped G# key, and a sometimes articulated D-E-F palm keys that lift and hold each other open going up the scale (easier to understand if you see a picture). Your C Melody was probably a Couturier

[spiderjames]

My C melody, as I recall had soldered tone holes bevelled at a sharp 45 degree angle at the top. They were missing that typical martin style scooped bevel. It did not have the Mercedes style keyguard. Does this mean that martin never used a mercedes style keyguard contrary to what has been believed in the past? Keep in mind that Conn also built horns early on with soldered tone holes and a Mercedes keyguard. I own a Conn labelled C melody like this.

Since Conn, Martin, and possibly Buescher all used soldered tone holes and Conn and Martin (at least from what we thought in the past) used a Mercedes style keyguard, What are the designating factors that would verify a horn as a Courturier and not possibly just a stencil from Conn, Buescher, or Martin.

[LaPorte]

This is very curious stuff. Changes our perspctive on the history of early american manufacturers and my personal sax history as well. I owned a C melody marked American Professional that I always assumed was a martin stencil. now you say American Professional was a line of Courturier?

‘American Professional’ was a trademark or second line of Lyon&Healy. Prior to purchasing the LaPorte plant saxophones marked ‘Lyon&Healy’ and additionally ‘AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL’ are made by Buescher , some (late 1923) made by Couturier. Currently there are two examples on ebay:

An early C melody with soldered tonholes #31989

http://cgi.ebay.com/LYON-HEALY-AMERICAN-PROFFESIONAL-SAXAPHONE-31-9xx_W0QQitemZ220508294856QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item3357518ec8#ht_500wt_1182

and a C 'medley' #119698

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Lyon-Healy-Tenor-Saxophone-w-Original-Case_W0QQitemZ140359043379QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item20ae0d0933

both made by Buescher.

After purchasing the Couturier Co. (and an interruption) Lyon&Healy continued the ‘AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL’ line lacking the ‘Lyon&Healy’ engraving usually using a C-keyguard in T-shape instead of the Y shaped keyguard used on their first line. Both lines were made in LaPorte and are essentially identical. The factory name ‘Couturier Band Instrument Company’ under the new leadership of L&H was uphold for the moment.

It is a bit confusing. Are you saying that Courturier made their own saxes in their plant until they were bought by Lyon and Healy?

That’s correct. The 'Made By' on Couturier saxophones tells the truth: Made by Couturier. Couturier saxophones stencilled by other companies and those made by Lyon&Healy can be identified according to my post #68 this thread.

Did they not buy stencils from other manufacturers prior to this date?

Prior to moving the Couturier company from Elkhart to LaPorte October 1918 there had been Conn saxophones, stencilled 'Couturier LTD'. In LaPorte no saxophones were sold until ca. August 1922, when Couturier started his own saxophone production.

If the Conn made tenor shown earlier is from 1916 then it must have been stencilled for Courturier by Conn.

Right.

I have seen these come up on Ebay many, many times and dismissed them as Martin stencils. If they were manufactured by Courturier in their own plant that is very interesting history.

I agree.:)

My C melody, as I recall had soldered tone holes bevelled at a sharp 45 degree angle at the top. They were missing that typical martin style scooped bevel.

Well observed. Your C melody was made by Lyon&Healy in the Couturier factory most probably 1924/1925.

If the engraving says both 'Lyon&Healy' and 'American Professional' it was made by Couturier during receivership October 1923 and march 1924. November and December 1923 the factory was closed. And you really sold a genuine Couturier saxophone without having it played? (Otherwise you wouldn't have it sold ;)).

It did not have the Mercedes style keyguard. Does this mean that martin never used a mercedes style keyguard contrary to what has been believed in the past?

I've never seen a Martin with a 'Conn' style low C keyguard. The keyguard is no reliable feature as Couturier saxophones have either an Y or a T style C-keyguard. All the same the combination of bevelled tonholes and an Y style C keyguard may arouse suspicion.;)

Keep in mind that Conn also built horns early on with soldered tone holes and a Mercedes keyguard. I own a Conn labelled C melody like this.

An early 'C.G Conn' alto I saw on ebay that had soldered and bevelled toneholes! I missed to save the pictures.

Since Conn, Martin, and possibly Buescher all used soldered tone holes and Conn and Martin (at least from what we thought in the past) used a Mercedes style keyguard, ...

I came across five different manufacturers which used Y-style (Mercedes style) C keyguards at some time. There are probably more. Yesterday I met Gerhard Julius Keilwerth, grandchild of the saxophone manufacturer Julius Keilwerth. He told me how manufacturers exchanged keyguards and other features in order to give a certain impression to the customer. I do know e.g. that 1926 Lyon&Healy sold the whole line of their ‘Artist Model’ with a Mercedes style C-keyguard (all made in their LaPorte plant) except the baritone which was made by Conn. That Conn made baritone was equipped with a T-shaped C keyguard! And my Conn made L&H ‘Trojan’ alto has a T shaped C keyguard, too! There may be many Trojan horses out there. A keyguard could easily be exchanged and they did.

What are the designating factors that would verify a horn as a Courturier and not possibly just a stencil from Conn, Buescher, or Martin.

I've listed the most important (those found on all Couturier saxophones)
in post #68 this thread. There are some more which can be found on certain models, like mentioned by Walter Webb.

Thank you for your thoughtful questiones, spiderjames!:)

[soybean]

"500 saxophones per month" ... that seems to be slightly exaggarated. 250 per months may be more realistic.I also think they exaggerated in that picture of the factory (post #105). Compare the aerial view to the photo. The aerial is done by a draftsman who made the structure appear larger than it really was.

[LaPorte]

I also think they exaggerated in that picture of the factory (post #105). Compare the aerial view to the photo. The aerial is done by a draftsman who made the structure appear larger than it really was.

Interesting observations. You remind me that there are more pictures. Here is a view on the section of mounting dept, upper floor, looking in the direction of Lincoln Way. Is anyone recognizing his great-grandfather?

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-11-1022-08-41.jpg

MTR April 30, 1921

[LaPorte]

... If they were manufactured by Courturier in their own plant that is very interesting history.
I revised my answer #114.

[LaPorte]

Another view into the Couturier factory with the president himself:

http://i546.photobucket.com/albums/hh411/LaPorte1922/Bildschirmfoto2009-11-1321-28-26.jpg
MTR April 30, 1921

[LaPorte]

"Imminently playable, with a stately and solid voice. ... Perfect intonation, and something incredibly lush and complex in terms of timbre. Absolutely playable in a modern context."

Enjoy the pictures of a great instrument. Sorry, no saxophone!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1920-A-E-Couturier-Conical-Bore-Cornet-w-Xtras_W0QQitemZ280426338551QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBras s_Instruments?hash=item414ab658f7#ht_9585wt_941

[soybean]

The photos of the factory are fascinating. I find myself trying to figure out what each man is doing. The courtier cornet on eBay is so beautiful. It shows the amazing quality of work this company was able to produce.