Holton USQMC bari

[dcflyer84]

I've got a Holton bari engraved with USQMC in silver matte with brass wash on the bell. Playable condition due to pad job several years ago. Any ideas on the year of mfg. or value? It's obviously a military issue/contractor horn with the Quartermaster inits., but beyond that, I don't know much about it. The serial number is not in the usual place and I can't seem to find it anywhere else on the horn.

[JayeSF]

Can you post a pic (use "manage attachments" button below the message screen to upload from you computer). If you get a "file too large" message, find a free image resizing site..

[soybean]

I'm guessing silver matte with brass wash (gold wash?) bell means it's a horn from the 1920s. Photos would tell the tale.

[bruce bailey]

I was sent the photos (via Foreverwoodwinds) and it is a real Holton built horn. It has the bow extra vent key on the C. Looks rather nice.
Welcome to SOTW dc! Hope you find better answers that I could give!

[dcflyer84]

Thanks, Bruce, for your input! I'm going to attempt to attach some photos of it.11680

11681

11682

[NissanMarkVII]

Nice. Does she play as good as she looks?

[dcflyer84]

Yes, it does play well...at least as well as my out of shape chops can play--been a long time since high school! Never played bari til I got this one; always alto. Used to play the school's Buescher. Got a H Couf Superba I for my 16th b'day, so I played on that afterwards. Bari was a gift from antique-ing parents/grandparents. They also came across a Martin 'handcraft' alto from ~1925. Got 'em both. Martin Alto plays more free than the Couf and has a more in-tune C#. Couf's is flat as heck!

[NissanMarkVII]

I'm 31, and was lucky enough to have my mom buy me my '26 King Bari for Christmas in '08.

After a few mild modifications, this Bari is just as comfortable to play, as it sounds! And, me, like most it seems, hadn't played Bari since high school!

Only took 4 mouthpieces (sold Metalite M7, and traded Otto Link metal #5) and 4 months to find the right combination (now settled on an H. Couf Artist 5*R for community band, and a Berg Larson stainless steel 6* (115/1/M). The Berg is very flexible, and perfectly in tune on this Bari.

Perhaps your Couf is just as mouthpiece picky?

[JayeSF]

Rare enuff for a Holton Bari to appear anywhere...yours looks in good shape. Congrats....

[musicwriter2001]

I've got a Holton bari engraved with USQMC in silver matte with brass wash on the bell. Playable condition due to pad job several years ago. Any ideas on the year of mfg. or value? It's obviously a military issue/contractor horn with the Quartermaster inits., but beyond that, I don't know much about it. The serial number is not in the usual place and I can't seem to find it anywhere else on the horn.

I have a holton tenor in silver with USQMC on it with a serial number of 1100, which seems to date from the late teens. they stopped calling it the quartermaster corps i think after the late 20's or early 30's, so perhaps your bari dates between there somewhere. I also have a silver holton bari with USN on it from the early 40's.

[dcflyer84]

perhaps so, NissanVII...never tried changing mouthpieces. Since I haven't actively played it for quite some time, it doesn't get much priority on the 'to do' list. But, one of these days, when I have some free time . . . and some great advice from SOTW!
New mp would help with bari, too, I'm sure. I've got the one that came with it, but haven't tried to ID it.

Thanks, JayeSF!

[dcflyer84]

Excellent, Musicwriter! That really helps pin it down! Want the bari for your growing USQMC collection? ;)

Edit: If you don't mind me askin', what did you pay for the USQMC tenor? you can email me privately if you wish.

[johnnysax]

they stopped calling it the quartermaster corps i think after the late 20's or early 30's, so perhaps your bari dates between there somewhere.

Apparently still exists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartermaster_Corps

http://www.quartermaster.army.mil/

[dcflyer84]

Well, well, John, the links do tell! I had assumed it was defunct, like many. I'll have to pursue the Army office from the website to find an historian that can tell me more about the music side of it.

[soybean]

"Former functions and missions of the (United States) Quartermaster Corps were:

* military transportation (given to the newly established Transportation Corps in 1942)[1]
* military construction (given to the Engineer Corps in the early 1940s) [2]
* military heraldry (given to the Adjutant General's Corps in 1962)"

Hmmm, heraldry using baritone saxophones?? That's an interesting concept. I wonder if they used baris when there was a lack of trombones.

[bruce bailey]

When I was in HS I had a QM alto. Not marked. Teh quartermaster also issued anything needed such as uniforms, bedding, instruments, reeds, radios, etc.

[jazzbug1]

That low C vent key identifies it as a "post Wiedoeft" model. Possibly 1931 or so. I had considerable trouble finding the correct level to adjust the low C felt bumper on my Wiedoeft tenor to achieve good intonation on low or middle D. You may have to adjust the opening height down some. This is not present in the Wiedoeft C melody, alto, or soprano. I think it appears only on the large bore tenor and probably the baritone. That little key increases the resonance of low E and D and eliminates some of the stuffiness on the middle E and D. Good luck with your beautiful horn.

[dcflyer84]

Just saw the posting from 9/2005 about that USQMC Soprano. Wow! Just from folks on this thread we could put together a whole swing band sax section of USQMC horns! Now let's work on resurrecting the Andrew Sisters so we'll have some decent vocalists to sing with us.

Seriously though, for me to adjust any keys would be WAY beyond my expertise, Jazzbug. Although my ear is pretty good, so I might try some experimenting just to see if I can hear a difference. Gregg Gelb is in my area and pretty accessible. If I get serious about this thing, I could always buy some of this time and ear. He's already given me some contacts for evaluating this bari and my Martin alto.

[dcflyer84]

Jazzbug, of the two keys on the bow, which one is the vent key? the smaller of the two?

[NissanMarkVII]

The vent key is the smaller one, creeping up onto the bell part of the bow.

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=11680&d=1243294203

[jazzbug1]

Those vent keys have a patent # stamped on them, but Holton stole the idea from the French Buffet Crampon saxes of ca. 1910. Same with the side C to D key. They were nice ideas that no other American maker used. I notice my 1939 Holton model 214 tenor is finally rid of that leak-prone Eb trill key. My 1941 Conn 10M lost it too. Most players have shut those keys off and it appears by the late 30s, they were no longer on horns. The only vestigial trill key on the late 30s-40s horns is the G# trill. By this time Holton had copied everyone else with an extra pearl touch on the bottom stack for the G#. I believe by the late 1940s this key disappeared also. To play a saxophone is enough of a "trill" for me without extra keys.

[NissanMarkVII]

Beaugnier (and their stencils) had the low C vent as well (though of a different design, higher up the bell, just below the low C# key) on Baris for a time.

[dcflyer84]

New found info!
Got home from my trip that I've been on since I started this thread and took another good look at the bari. Found the s/n 34627 and looked at the vent key for a patent number, but there wasn't one there. Instead, these words "PAT APLD FOR". I know what the abbreviations mean, but does that help date this horn??

[JayeSF]

...1916...thereabouts....(?)

[NissanMarkVII]

Wrong Jay. It has high F, which would put it 1919 or newer. It also has Fork F, which, unless installed later, would date it around 1924 (that's when Buescher and Conn started with Fork F anyway. King didn't start 'till 1935 on Baris, and 1926 and Alto/Tenor)

[jazzbug1]

I go for the last of the Wiedoeft bodies, say 1930, as only the Wiedoefts and "post Wiedoefts" had the low C key. My mistake- "Pat. applied for" is on all my Wiedoeft low Cs. The Wiedoeft baritone (hence your horn) is extremely rare, as I have only seen one Rudy baritone ever. Your serial # is 1929-30. The Quarter Master stamp could even date from WW II, as the military purchased many instruments during the war, and with limited musical instrument production, surely some used ones were purchased. Perhaps your baritone also served as a Bazooka. When launched from, I'm sure it played quite a note.

[dcflyer84]

LOL! Looks like you guys are narrowing this down quite well. Jazzbug, what's your source for the s/n date? Also, as far as value is concerned, when you guys go out to look for a horn as a player and/or a collector, does 'extremely rare' enter into your price point? Or, do you base value on 'playability'? I prefer drinkability, myself, but that's a different subject.

[jazzbug1]

Based on the newly-revised Holton serial #s per Mr. La Porte. I am a vintage jazz player, although I have many horns, they are all played. The collector thing is nice, but unfortunately takes many great horns out of circulation. Fortunately for Holton afficianados, the Holton is not collectable and is rarely mentioned on vintage sax websites. A Wiedoeft baritone is the only Rudy missing from my family. However, if it did not match my Conn Chu Berry model in playability, I would not purchase it. Guitar collectors have tied up so many vintage Fenders that the price is now ridiculous. The same thing has happened to the Selmer tenors and altos. The sad thing is that many collectors are mediocre players, so the horns are not used, or played by someone who would be just as good on a Bundy.

[dcflyer84]

thanks for the insights. Good info to ponder on awhile.

[LaPorte]

Based on the newly-revised Holton serial #s per Mr. La Porte. ...

http://vintage.saxontheweb.net/Holton.html

[soybean]

Another USQMC horn just showed up on eBay. I suspect this is an Abbott, not Abbot as spelled.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Abbot-alto-sax_W0QQitemZ220428757613QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item335293ea6d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A3|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0 |293%3A1|294%3A100

[LaPorte]

Another USQMC horn just showed up on eBay. I suspect this is an Abbott, not Abbot as spelled.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Abbot-alto-sax_W0QQitemZ220428757613QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item335293ea6d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A3|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0 |293%3A1|294%3A100

Joint rings, body design and position of the upper octave key tonhole tells that it may be made by Martin. Definately no Holton, no LaPorte made saxophone either.

Felix

[dcflyer84]

Just took my gold-plated Martin 'handcraft' in for a dip and clean to remove years of grime. Looks super now! Marsh Woodwinds (great shop!) in Raleigh did the work. The original neck, mouthpiece cover and ligature (all gold-plated) went in for the clean-up, too. Unfortunately, they say a new pad job is needed to make it really playable again. bummer. that'll cost me over half of what the horn is worth. Anyway, here are some before and afters (a link to my album)
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/album.php?u=47641