View Full Version : Electron flow thru a Holton
Walter Webb
05-20-2009, 02:19 AM
JazzBug said: "I have had experience in metallurgy...an unusual phenomenon in metals (brass saxophones)...The crystalline structure of sheet metal slowly aligns itself the longer it exists, that is, the atom structure assumes a direction of electron flow. This is perhaps why old horns have a different sound from new horns"
I would devise an experiment to increase the electron flow thru every molecule of brass on a saxophone. Use the horn as a part of a circuit conducting electricity in series. It could be house current, lighting a bulb, or a toaster if you think more amps would season molecules faster. If that seems too weak or too slow, hook up an air conditioner in series thru the horn, at 220v, but don't touch it, OK? Thermometers stuck at the beginning, middle and end of the horn might be necessary to monitor dangerous levels of heat buildup (don't melt your horn like a fusible link). Maybe only 12v at a few amps would be sufficient over few months or a year or two, or three. I don't know. It's a wide open field. Whaddaya think?
You're killin' me Smalls...
JayeSF
05-20-2009, 02:43 AM
JazzBug said: "I have had experience in metallurgy...an unusual phenomenon in metals (brass saxophones)...The crystalline structure of sheet metal slowly aligns itself the longer it exists, that is, the atom structure assumes a direction of electron flow. This is perhaps why old horns have a different sound from new horns"
I would devise an experiment to increase the electron flow thru every molecule of brass on a saxophone. Use the horn as a part of a circuit conducting electricity in series. It could be house current, lighting a bulb, or a toaster if you think more amps would season molecules faster. If that seems too weak or too slow, hook up an air conditioner in series thru the horn, at 220v, but don't touch it, OK? Thermometers stuck at the beginning, middle and end of the horn might be necessary to monitor dangerous levels of heat buildup (don't melt your horn like a fusible link). Maybe only 12v at a few amps would be sufficient over few months or a year or two, or three. I don't know. It's a wide open field. Whaddaya think?
Um...I think the point was that there is actually a change in the internal (for lack of a better word I will use the layman's term) structures of the brass with time, so in fact old metal will have some different characteristics than new metal.
It's not all that debatable an issue, actually. It's accepted fact with cymbals...which are bronze and thus copper/tin alloy as opposed to brass copper/zinc alloy....but similar. Aging doesn't only result in patina, it also results in a "settling down" of the metal....People think if you just clean 'em up and remove all patina they are gonna sound brand new...and it doesn't work that way...because other stuff's going on in there....
I am involved in structural engineering...metals are compounds which change with time.
Kind of odd (even here) for someone to actually start a thread with the sole intent of razzing on someone, BTW....
kuelbrz
05-20-2009, 02:48 AM
Also some trombonists on the trombone forum claim older trombones sound better due to aging and prefer older trombones. I used to think they could be imagining it, but even I prefer the sound of classic saxes. Modern ones sound too blah and tinny to me no matter what MP is used on them. Does brass, like fine liquor better with age??
Walter Webb
05-20-2009, 05:19 AM
No razzing intended here. Just exploring an interesting idea that may or may not be crazy. It makes as much sense to me as cryogenic molecule alignment. Unfortunately, written language is devoid of nonverbal elements of communication that might indicate sarcasm or general tone. I have the highest regard for Jazzbug, and I appreciate his fine line between serious and humorous, although I believe he was quite serious in this case about the electrons lining up over time. What say ye, Jazzbug?
Walter
JayeSF
05-20-2009, 06:39 AM
Ah....I see, I see...
BTW, Walter....that's an impressive SAT vocabulary you have there....good to see you are putting it to good use, right off the bat....
...so, you are saying that you know for a fact that metal molecules do NOT alter their initial alignment/state over time ?
You are a sax player... and a chemist !!!??? Talented young man 'r U.....
...'written language devoid of, etc., etc., etc'....
mmmm...that's what the smilies template is for....no ?
;)
:TGNCHK:
8-)
:salute:
:geek:
:tongue1:
...:snorting:...:fish:
blackfrancis
05-20-2009, 12:47 PM
Explain to me how (a cloud of) electrons can "line up". I'm not so sure that fits with a modern model of physics, but I can tell you that Holton used only hand-selected electrons of the finest quality...
musicwriter2001
05-20-2009, 03:25 PM
Is the origianl premise of electrons alligning in metal over time that out there? What about the most basic of science class demonstrations where you take a big bar of iron that isnot magnetized at all, lay it down in a north south orientation, whack it with a real big hammer and then it now is magnetized? cant the same type of thing happen to metal over time? and what about annealing? heating metal so that the structure lines up a certain way to make it more workable.
I dont know, just a thought.
Yofis
05-20-2009, 03:56 PM
Explain to me how (a cloud of) electrons can "line up". I'm not so sure that fits with a modern model of physics, but I can tell you that Holton used only hand-selected electrons of the finest quality...
Isn't it molecules that align and not electrons? I believe they have to be non-polar as well. In the case of magnets, I believe it is an orientation of electrons spinning in the same direction, not "lining up".
kavala
05-20-2009, 04:33 PM
The individual atoms or molecules settle into an ordered pattern.
The entire structure becomes more crystaline.
As per the magnet example.
Also the blacksmiths making super strong Samurai swords,
by beating them while hot, folding and refolding the steel.
A similar concept to the differences between normal carbon
and diamonds.
The opposite is seen in 'Liquid Metals' (metallic glass).
They have non aligned structures.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOEBR3DcqN0
http://www.liquidmetal.com/index/
However, I'm not sure about Walter's suggested methods for doing
this with a sax. :D
Sounds dangerous to me...
Perhaps all that playing over time has the opposite effect with
the various vibrations and harmonics causing the molecules
to become non crystalline.
When they start to make saxes from liquid metal sheets
we may have something phenomenal.
JayeSF
05-20-2009, 04:42 PM
Yup...it wouldn't work on a sax, but I have a few thoughts as to what else Walter can hook up his toaster to....and an appropriate location for that thermometer, too....:shock:;)
Just a miniscule point, if you read jazz's ENTIRE quote from the other thread (it's really neither rocket science nor outlandish in the least)...he never writes "electrons lining up" ....he talks about alignment of atoms....this was a misinterpretation by the author and others in this thread.... a nice 'straw man' ....
Most others seem to get the premise, however....
lhoffman
05-20-2009, 04:43 PM
By what mechanism would you propose that any "electron flow" has an effect on tone? I'm interested in the sheet metal phenomenon, if someone could link that discussion or some info that would be great. But come on, it seems quite a stretch.
Let me weigh in as a scientist.
No.
"No" on every level.
kavala
05-20-2009, 06:43 PM
By what mechanism would you propose that any "electron flow" has an effect on tone? I'm interested in the sheet metal phenomenon, if someone could link that discussion or some info that would be great. But come on, it seems quite a stretch.
It will have no effect.
The flow of electrons (electrical current) is just that.
Electrons jumping from one atom to the next and being replaced
by the electron jumping from the previous atom in the chain.
Nothing really changes.
Mind you, if you get enough of them going at once then you will
have heating of the metal. Controlling this so that it is even over the
entire sax would be difficult.
This argument sounds to me a bit like the guys with the special
copper wires and gold connectors saying their stereo amps
sound better with these adaptions.
By what mechanism would you propose that any "electron flow" has an effect on tone? I'm interested in the sheet metal phenomenon, if someone could link that discussion or some info that would be great. But come on, it seems quite a stretch.
It will have no effect.
True.
The flow of electrons (electrical current) is just that.Electrons jumping from one atom to the next and being replaced
by the electron jumping from the previous atom in the chain.
Nothing really changes.
On the other hand, there is a phenomenon of electron-driven migration of copper that occurs due to DC flow in fine copper traces in microchip interconnects.
As an example: http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/sec_subscribe.asp?CID=2660&DID=106719&action=detail
Not appropriate to saxophones - and no effect on acoustics.
jazzbug1
05-20-2009, 08:29 PM
WOW- Did I start something! All metals are slightly magnetic, including an alloy such as brass. The crystal (hence atomic) structure slowly aligns itself as it exists until it is melted or perhaps subjected to a strong electrical field. I know it sounds like alchemy, but I spent considerable time with these very elderly and educated metallurgists, who studied in the 1920s-30s. One of them even worked on the Manhattan Project (and created an atomic saxophone!!! ;-) Maybe old horns sound differently because of this process, or a difference in thickness, or a difference in older brass formulae, or these old guys and I are crazy and the difference in all in our heads, but I feel there is a difference between a Suckahatchi and a Balanced Action that amounts to more than craftsmanship. My final thought on this subject: Respect your elders and believe anything they say!
geauxsax
05-20-2009, 08:36 PM
wow- did i start something! All metals are slightly magnetic, including an alloy such as brass. The crystal (hence atomic) structure slowly aligns itself as it exists until it is melted or perhaps subjected to a strong electrical field. I know it sounds like alchemy, but i spent considerable time with these very elderly and educated metallurgists, who studied in the 1920s-30s. One of them even worked on the manhattan project (and created an atomic saxophone!!! ;-) maybe old horns sound differently because of this process, or a difference in thickness, or a difference in older brass formulae, or these old guys and i are crazy and the difference in all in our heads, but i feel there is a difference between a suckahatchi and a balanced action that amounts to more than craftsmanship. My final thought on this subject: Respect your elders and believe anything they say!
:mrgreen::cheers::colors::joker::salute::occasion:
WOW- Did I start something! All metals are slightly magnetic, including an alloy such as brass. The crystal (hence atomic) structure slowly aligns itself as it exists until it is melted or perhaps subjected to a strong electrical field. I know it sounds like alchemy, but I spent considerable time with these very elderly and educated metallurgists, who studied in the 1920s-30s. One of them even worked on the Manhattan Project (and created an atomic saxophone!!! ;-) Maybe old horns sound differently because of this process, or a difference in thickness, or a difference in older brass formulae, or these old guys and I are crazy and the difference in all in our heads, but I feel there is a difference between a Suckahatchi and a Balanced Action that amounts to more than craftsmanship. My final thought on this subject: Respect your elders and believe anything they say!
Maybe I should be more succinct - "No".
"Crazy"? Perhaps not. "Ill-informed"? Perhaps so.
Your statements are wrong on so many levels. There is a difference between metallurgists of olden days and materials scientists of today - a big difference. I don't tell a metallurgist how to do their business nor do I place great weight on their "ideas" of what goes on in materials science.
Brass is not slightly magnetic. Whether it is or not has nothing to do with the influence of electron-enhanced migration.
If you are perpetrating a joke, good for you. If you are serious about this concept, please let it go.
blackfrancis
05-20-2009, 10:32 PM
I think that one big reason that a Holton (or any other old sax) sounds different than a new one is that it's not a Selmer copy.
jkite636
05-20-2009, 11:07 PM
No...the real question is whether it is lacquered or unlacquered.....
jrvinson45
05-21-2009, 01:14 AM
If one must really test electron flow through metal, then please feel free to do it as the lad in Xulld's avatar is preparing to do...
Yofis
05-21-2009, 02:05 AM
...or these old guys and I are crazy and the difference in all in our heads...
"The folly of mistaking a paradox for a discovery, a metaphor for a proof, a torrent of verbiage for a spring of capital truths, and oneself for an oracle, is inborn in us"
jazzbug1
05-26-2009, 06:10 PM
I asked a Pair-O-Docs and that's what they said.
Ever hear of "scope of practice"?
harmonizerNJ
05-26-2009, 08:00 PM
Magnetizing the metal of your saxophone might have an effect on the flow of air in your horn if you are exhaling ionized air.
I have not mastered this trick yet of learning how to exhale ionized air, so for now I am using traditional methods of trying to improve my sax playing, such as posting messages on Internet chat boards.
Sorry, just could not resist a little irony after having read this thread!
jazzbug1
05-26-2009, 08:19 PM
I originally got my electrical flow theory from two gastro-intestinal specialists, so it's within the "scope of proctice".
soybean
05-27-2009, 01:46 AM
i am using traditional methods of trying to improve my sax playing, such as posting messages on internet chat boards.
:d :) :d
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