Leblanc Sax Serial Number Registry

[FremontSax]

I have been searching the web for Leblanc Saxophones trying to put a serial number list together this is what I have found.

Serial Number Type Year Source

542 Tenor Semi Rationale 1950's http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm

681 Alto 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_altsax/

752 Tenor 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/leblanc_tenorsax/

775 Tenor Semi Rationale ebay

909 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm

1015 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoViewer.asp?ProdCode=1015LeblancAlto&AtImage=9&productname=MINT+Vintage+G+Leblanc+System+Rational e+Alto+Sax+SN+1015&PhotoNum=27

1121 Alto Semi Rationale 1969 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php

1135 Alto Semi Rationale www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html

8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html

SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_s.r./

[FremontSax]

If you know of other Leblanc (labeled as such) saxophones please post what you know. Maybe we can jointly put together enough info to form a proper serial number to year list.

[jazfyrski]

Thanks for taking on this worthy task---although I'm not sure how many responses you'll receive.

Regardless, here's my "contribution":

I recently bought a Leblanc alto, serial #992. I know this horn is commonly referred to as either a "Rationale" or "Semi-Rationale", although it was officially designated by the Leblanc company as a Model 100 (Tenors were Model 120).

From vendor information and internet sources, I first assumed my horn was made c.1951; on further consideration, it seems likely it was built several years later.

[FremontSax]

Thanks for taking on this worthy task---although I'm not sure how many responses you'll receive.

Regardless, here's my "contribution":

I recently bought a Leblanc alto, serial #992. I know this horn is commonly referred to as either a "Rationale" or "Semi-Rationale", although it was officially designated by the Leblanc company as a Model 100 (Tenors were Model 120).

From vendor information and Internet sources, I first assumed my horn was made c.1951; on further consideration, it seems likely it was built several years later.

I am running a spread sheet and I will add a model number and publish it periodically upon this forum.

My efforts are minimal.... this to work has to be a collective issue.

Two positive results are possible, one the idea of a serial number to year estimation and two the ratio of altos to tenors..

PM me for a copy of the spread sheet

[warp x]

Serial 430 Tenor Semi Rationale

[AMASAX]

909 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm

above link has at least one factual error:

The Leblanc System horns were not the first to have a high F#. Selmer introduced those, as an available option(not some sort of custom job) on the Balanced Action altos in the late 1930s. I've seen pics of two or three of these, and owned one myself(# 29,3xx).

These were later listed in the catalogs after the SBA models came out, after WWII.

As far as Leblanc, a few things I've picked up over the years, after having owned(still own) several of the Leblanc System horns, along with two of the Rationals(sp?):

The Rational horns were patented in the mid-late 1920s and produced somewhere after that, presumably into the 1930s.
Production of these likely ended in 1939 when France got dragged into WWII.
Btw, these horns are hopelessly complicated critters; not really usable for real playing, but quite interesting collectibles. Not many made, at least 100 or so, but I don't know the upper serial ranges on these.

The Leblanc System horns, otoh, are a usable refinement of the Rational system. Alto/Tenor only. I have(somewhere) an ad showing Vincent Abato introducing & endorsing the Leblanc System horns. This ad dates from 1953.

Manufacturing dates for the Leblanc System were, as far as I can tell, from the early 1950s(1953, per Abato?) up to the early 1970s. I worked in a music store in 1974, while in high school. Wanting to play an alto sax solo for contest, the store loaned me a funky alto to use - turned out to be either a new or New-Old-Stock Leblanc System alto(!). I don't think this horn had sat around for 5-10 yrs or so, and therefore concluded it had been built within a few years of when I used it. I never jotted down the serial, so can't offer that up.

These horns never made it, as they were evidently wayyyy too expensive to make, and therefore sell; plus, the 'system' never caught on. Kinda neat horns, nonetheless, and have a rep of being the best in-tune saxes ever made. I haven't thoroughly checked any of mine to verify this or not. One of these days I'll dig into these more, but up to this point, I just bought 'em and threw 'em in the closet.

I think there were some refinements to the keywork along the way, particularly from very early in the run. Search my other posts, I think there was a previous thread on this issue.

These pop up on ebay from time to time, so if you 'gots to have one', a little patience will probably pay off. Note that the tenors are much less common to find than the altos. I don't have any alto/tenor distribution, but ebay & websites seem to verify this; at least, over the last 10-12 years or so.

[AMASAX]

btw, 'Semi-Rational', 'Rational' or whatever, is incorrect to use in referring the later series. Those are correctly identified as 'Leblanc System' horns. Rational, etc., refers to the earlier, prototype horns from the 1920s-1930s.

[jazfyrski]

Great information, Amasax. Thank you!

The Leblanc System alto I have is a real treat. As you'd mentioned, the intonation is excellent but, to my ears, the most remarkable quality is the incredibly even timbre throughout the range. It's my understanding that the Leblanc company designers were determined to create a saxophone based--as faithfully as possible--on the Boehm system, where all the tone holes lower than the note played remain open.

But of course these horns are more celebrated (or chastised for!) the incredible number of alternate fingerings because of the radically innovative key system.

I only wish a respected saxophone historian, such as Dr. Paul Cohen, would write about this horn!

[FremontSax]

It seems that there are two distinct lines of serial numbers.

SR B xx and xxx

From the xxx group lowest number I have seen is 341 and the highest 1180

The xxx group was listed for sale as model 100 an alto or model 120 a tenor.

1974 leblanc instrument prices wholesale? retail? recommended retail?

www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Leblanc/Leblanc%20LL%20UK%20prices%201974.pdf

Saxgourmet.com does have copies of literature that use the model 100, model 120 and refer to them as having the feature "Leblanc System Fingering" it also refers to these saxophones on the second page as "Leblanc System Saxophones".

Serial Number Type Year Model Source
341 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/341/
422 Tenor Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/Tenor/2-Tone/422-jd/
430 Tenor Semi Rationale Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net also http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Tenor/2-tone/430/
542 Tenor Semi Rationale 1950's http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm
670A Alto Semi Rationale cgi.ebay.com/Rare-LeBlanc-Rationale-System-Alto-Sax_W0QQitemZ400043325425QQcategoryZ16232QQcmdZVie wItem
681 Alto 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_altsax/
752 Tenor 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/leblanc_tenorsax/
775 Tenor Semi Rationale Model 120 ebay
909 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm
992 Alto Semi Rationale Model 100 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net
1015 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoViewer.asp?ProdCode=1015LeblancAlto&AtImage=9&productname=MINT+Vintage+G+Leblanc+System+Rational e+Alto+Sax+SN+1015&PhotoNum=27
1105 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1105/
1121 Alto Semi Rationale 1969 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php
1135 Alto Semi Rationale www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html
1180 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1180/
8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html



SR B 70 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/
SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_s.r./

[saintsday]

FWIW, I think there were 3 or 4 iterations of system horns and terminology is a problem with them.

Please comment and amend the following if you have definitive information that is more than guess work.

The original rational system horns were developed by Leblanc and Houvenaghel in the 30s. These were essentially all prototypes with super complex keywork including multiple extra keys that varied from horn to horn. These, and all their progeny, were an attempt to make a Boehm system saxophone.
There were apparently only a few dozen made and they never went into full production. Some of the links in the previous post show these.

There next may have been a semi-system horn made, again very low essentially prototype models.

Some time in the fifties, Leblanc made the Leblanc system 120 and 100 models based on the rational system models but with mostly standard key placement and number (placing the F# 3 key between the left pinkies and the palms) and retaining the Boehm tone hole placement. This is what allows the alternate fingerings. The common is wisdom is that there were about 1500 of these made in alto and tenor combined. I've had four of these.

In the sixties there was a Vito model 35 alto using the Leblanc system tone hole placement but with a different body tube and simplified mechanics. I've had several of these. The Johnny Hodges model had a different model number. The serials have an A at the end.

Leblanc system alto:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_1574-1-1.jpg

Johnny Hodges Vito system alto:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/21_3-1-1.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/ed_3-1-1.jpg

[FremontSax]

FWIW, I think there were 3 or 4 iterations of system horns and terminology is a problem with them.

Please comment and amend the following if you have definitive information that is more than guess work.

The original rational system horns were developed by Leblanc and Houvenaghel in the 30s. These were essentially all prototypes with super complex keywork including multiple extra keys that varied from horn to horn. These, and all their progeny, were an attempt to make a Boehm system saxophone.
There were apparently only a few dozen made and they never went into full production. Some of the links in the previous post show these.

There next may have been a semi-system horn made, again very low essentially prototype models.

Some time in the fifties, Leblanc made the Leblanc system 120 and 100 models based on the rational system models but with mostly standard key placement and number (placing the F# 3 key between the left pinkies and the palms) and retaining the Boehm tone hole placement. This is what allows the alternate fingerings. The common is wisdom is that there were about 1500 of these made in alto and tenor combined. I've had four of these.

In the sixties there was a Vito model 35 alto using the Leblanc system tone hole placement but with a different body tube and simplified mechanics. I've had several of these. The Johnny Hodges model had a different model number. The serials have an A at the end.

Leblanc system alto:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_1574-1-1.jpg

Johnny Hodges Vito system alto:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/21_3-1-1.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/ed_3-1-1.jpg


I think you are right that including the Vito model 35 there were three different iterations. I haven't bothered to cover the Vito's because doctorsax.biz has done a really good job.

From Leblanc

1) SRB based serial number.

From the photos they look old http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/

2) The Model 100 and Model 120. I believe these were available into the 1970's given the above Leblanc Instrument Price List which is dated 1974. Similarily if you look at the patent images at gourmetsax you see filing dates in the early 1960's. So my Guess is the Model 100 and Model 120 were available from about 1961 to at least 1974.

3) The Vito Model 35

I have a Vito Model 35 that has serial number 470A with no statement of where it was manufactured. I think Dr. Sax would call this a transitional horn.
Parts probably made in France but assembled in Kenosha, WI

One instrument that I have on my list has a serial number 670A which is very similar to numbers used for the Vito Model 35. But the photos show that it has serial number 670A, the Leblanc engraving on the bell, the adjustment screws for setting up the pads.

One of my interests in this exercise, is to better determine the quantity of these instruments and at least a rough ratio of altos to tenors. I would like to better determine the dates but so far there is a lot of uncertainty.

I have looked at your Johny Hodges Vito photos before and compared them to my model 35. If you ignore the beautiful engraving on the Hodges (difficult to do but) the key work, the neck, the clothing and key guards look identical. So I have included it in my mind as a model 35.

[saintsday]

FWIW, I think there were 3 or 4 iterations of system horns and terminology is a problem with them.

Please comment and amend the following if you have definitive information that is more than guess work.

The original rational system horns were developed by Leblanc and Houvenaghel in the 30s. These were essentially all prototypes with super complex keywork including multiple extra keys that varied from horn to horn. These, and all their progeny, were an attempt to make a Boehm system saxophone.
There were apparently only a few dozen made and they never went into full production. Some of the links in the previous post show these.

There next may have been a semi-system horn made, again very low essentially prototype models.

Some time in the fifties, Leblanc made the Leblanc system 120 and 100 models based on the rational system models but with mostly standard key placement and number (placing the F# 3 key between the left pinkies and the palms) and retaining the Boehm tone hole placement. This is what allows the alternate fingerings. The common is wisdom is that there were about 1500 of these made in alto and tenor combined. I've had four of these.

In the sixties there was a Vito model 35 alto using the Leblanc system tone hole placement but with a different body tube and simplified mechanics. I've had several of these. The Johnny Hodges model had a different model number. The serials have an A at the end.

Leblanc system alto:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/IMG_1574-1-1.jpg

Johnny Hodges Vito system alto:

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/21_3-1-1.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i262/saintsday/ed_3-1-1.jpg


I think you are right that including the Vito model 35 there were three different iterations. I haven't bothered to cover the Vito's because doctorsax.biz has done a really good job.

From Leblanc

1) SRB based serial number.

From the photos they look old http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/

2) The Model 100 and Model 120. I believe these were available into the 1970's given the above Leblanc Instrument Price List which is dated 1974. Similarily if you look at the patent images at gourmetsax you see filing dates in the early 1960's. So my Guess is the Model 100 and Model 120 were available from about 1961 to at least 1974.

3) The Vito Model 35

I have a Vito Model 35 that has serial number 470A with no statement of where it was manufactured. I think Dr. Sax would call this a transitional horn.
Parts probably made in France but assembled in Kenosha, WI

One instrument that I have on my list has a serial number 670A which is very similar to numbers used for the Vito Model 35. But the photos show that it has serial number 670A, the Leblanc engraving on the bell, the adjustment screws for setting up the pads.

One of my interests in this exercise, is to better determine the quantity of these instruments and at least a rough ratio of altos to tenors. I would like to better determine the dates but so far there is a lot of uncertainty.

I have looked at your Johny Hodges Vito photos before and compared them to my model 35. If you ignore the beautiful engraving on the Hodges (difficult to do but) the key work, the neck, the clothing and key guards look identical. So I have included it in my mind as a model 35.


Further clarification:

Every Vito system horn I've seen has had the A serial, including the Johnny Hodges which is serial 2551A. You are right to consider it a 35 since Leblanc called it a 135.

I've never seen a Vito system horn with a country of manufacture stamped on it and have assumed that they were all assembled in Kenosha from Beaugnier manufactured parts.

As far as I know, there were no Vito system tenors and based on tracking the Leblanc system horns for several years I would guess that the altos outnumber the tenors by at least 5 to 1. All of the Leblanc system horns I've seen are stamped France.

Please help me to find the price list. Maybe a new link to it?

I'm also having trouble finding the 670A horn.

Thanks for your efforts.

[FremontSax]

Saintsday,

I apologize, I must remember to not just cut a link here on sow because they often get abreviated.

Here is the link. I will correct my link up above as well.

www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Leblanc/Leblanc%20LL%20UK%20prices%201974.pdf

While I am at it. I looked up the exchange rates and inflation rates. These prices do not include the case.

In 1974 a model 100 alto which was listed at 354.64 pounds would have cost $829.86 here in the US. and adjusting for inflation that would be $3584.41 in 2008.
a model 120 tenor which was listed at 427.96 pounds would have cost $1001.43 here in the US and adjusting for inflation that would be $4325.47 in 2008.

Compare that to a French made Selmer today? to a Chinese made tenor?

[saintsday]

Thank you.

No wonder they couldn't make any money with them. That seems cheap for the complexity.

[FremontSax]

I have(somewhere) an ad showing Vincent Abato introducing & endorsing the Leblanc System horns. This ad dates from 1953.

I really wanted to highlight the above statement. Please look for the above add because if it references the Model 100 model 120 it would push the lower date from 1961 down to 1953.

I haven't looked into historical international patent law, but now days, you generally have one year from filing for a patent in one country to filing for it in other countries and you generally don't file a patent after you release your product. However, you can file (i think extensions) which push the filing date back and thus might help extend the patent. So delays from 1953 to 1961 might be very possible.

I have just received a patent in the US and the next time I talk to the filing lawyer I will risk spending a couple of extra bucks to find out his take on how extensions change filing dates.

Also, you can go to the us patent office web site and do searches on patents. Leon Leblanc as an inventor is there as is Leblanc as an assignee as is Vito. These records are public.

[Razorbaxsax]

I play an Vito Alto saxophone with the "Rationale" fingerings (extra F key, etc...) and was having trouble finding out when it was made and where. So I went to the music store where it was purchased in 1969 and the owner let me look through an original Leblanc repair manual from that year!! It stated that my horn, which has been handed down through my family since the late 60's, was made in paris and is the "Leblanc (Paris) System Model 9135 Vito Alto Saxophone". Serial 2425A I thought people might be interested in this story as researching serials becomes very difficult with these horns. The music store is Mid-South Music in Pine Bluff, AR - next to the old Band Museum. But he wouldn't sell the book to me :(

[Walter Webb]

Another Vito System alto for the serial number spreadsheet: 1156A
Thanks be to doctorsax.biz
If you are watching eBay for a decent Vito Kenosha that has been rebuilt expertly, just go to him. Forget that mysterious junker that might have been beaten with the ugly stick. His price is right.

1156A has no stamp of country of origen, but was presumably assembled in Kenosha of Beaugnier parts. I read somewhere that Vito defeated import taxes by assembling in USA.

Great alto. Sings, honks, squeals high, acts all high brow classical and plays whole tone scales easier than any sax, ever, with steps available in the right hand like you normally get with B-Bb, but add likewise G-Gb, A-Ab, C-Cb, C#-C, all done with the right middle finger.

[AMASAX]

I have(somewhere) an ad showing Vincent Abato introducing & endorsing the Leblanc System horns. This ad dates from 1953.

I really wanted to highlight the above statement. Please look for the above add because if it references the Model 100 model 120 it would push the lower date from 1961 down to 1953.

I haven't looked into historical international patent law, but now days, you generally have one year from filing for a patent in one country to filing for it in other countries and you generally don't file a patent after you release your product. However, you can file (i think extensions) which push the filing date back and thus might help extend the patent. So delays from 1953 to 1961 might be very possible.

I have just received a patent in the US and the next time I talk to the filing lawyer I will risk spending a couple of extra bucks to find out his take on how extensions change filing dates.

Also, you can go to the us patent office web site and do searches on patents. Leon Leblanc as an inventor is there as is Leblanc as an assignee as is Vito. These records are public.


Yes, the ad is correctly dated at 1953-1954. I picked it up off of ebay, and the seller cut it out of a magazine from that time period. I don't remember whether the ad I received has enough of the mag on the reverse that would include a date or not.

Pretty young pic of Abato, too. No doubt this timeframe is quite close/correct.

As for patents, I've seen copies of the 1926(I think that's correct) and later patents for the Rationals, but have not seen any paperwork for patenting the Leblanc System 100/120 horns.

Also, if you inquire about timeframes on patents, check to see if the rules have changed. Lots of time gone by in the last 50 yrs :)

I think saxpics had some pics of the old patents on his site, so you might check. Also, there's a guy on ebay who peddles copies of old patents(I bought one or two old Selmer copies from him). I don't remember whether he was selling any of the old Leblanc one or not. If so, I probably picked up some, but I just don't remember.

I buy 'stuff' off of ebay whenever something interesting pops. Unfortunately, I don't have this stuff organized. I just buy it and shove it somewhere, thinking I'll get it all sifted out later...and of course, later never arrives.

I've either seen or owned a Model 100 alto in the ~1350 range, so those estimates of up to around 1500 horns total may be fairly close. I've never seen a serial > ~1350, tho.

[FremontSax]

from ebay Switzerland

Model 100 serial number 1173

Nice looking horn for 899 Euros

http://cgi.ebay.ch/Leblanc-Leblanc-Systeme-Alto-Saxophone-TOP-no-Selmer_W0QQitemZ270388674963QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBla sinstrumente?hash=item270388674963&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A3|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0| 293%3A1|294%3A50

Very rare and in wonderful condition Leblanc "Leblanc-Systéme" Alto - saxophone Leblanc Model 100.

lots of alternate fingerings

many screws for keymechanism tuning

pads and springs are in good condition

serial number is 1173

no dents or repairs.

Original - case and original - neck plug.

Out of a collection.

[FremontSax]

from: this is actually from out of google's cache

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:2-Km3ULimRoJ:www.centrostudimusicali.it/shop/listino.php+leblanc+saxophone+%22model+100%22&cd=29&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

80. LEBLANC “Model 100”, #1260, laccato, campana incisa € 1.550

[Walter Webb]

It sure looks like a Vito Model 35, ser. 408A, pretty darn rare. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=300318307427

Went for $425. Pictures were horrible, but there was that unmistakeable G# key around the back side, and the extra G hole.

[isabelle3]

Hi, I have a Vito Leblanc alto sax in PRISTINE CONDITION!!! I would say almost NEW!!! the serial # is 8704A in its original case.
Is this the right place to register it???

I will take some pictures and post them

Iam interested in the history of this sax

thanks,
Yvonne:treble::D

[FremontSax]

Hi, I have a Vito Leblanc alto sax in PRISTINE CONDITION!!! I would say almost NEW!!! the serial # is 8704A in its original case.
Is this the right place to register it???

I will take some pictures and post them

Iam interested in the history of this sax

thanks,
Yvonne:treble::D

Sure if sow members want we can include vito saxophones as well. I have mostly been relying on doctorsax.bz but we can be a supplement to their fine work.

[FremontSax]

Updated list:

Leblanc System Saxophones
Serial Number Type Year Model Sales Date Sales Price Source
341 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/341/
422 Tenor Model 120 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/Tenor/2-Tone/422-jd/
430 Tenor Model 120 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net also http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Tenor/2-tone/430/
542 Tenor 1950's Model 120 http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm
664 Tenor ~1958 Model 120 06/21/09 $1,554.00 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEDWX:IT&item=250444325570
670A Alto Model 100 cgi.ebay.com/Rare-LeBlanc-Rationale-System-Alto-Sax_W0QQitemZ400043325425QQcategoryZ16232QQcmdZVie wItem
681 Alto 1960 Model 100 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_altsax/
752 Tenor 1960 Model 120 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/leblanc_tenorsax/
775 Tenor 1970's Model 120 04/2009 $1,775.00 ebay included 4 mouth pieces
909 Alto Model 100 http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_909.htm
992 Alto Model 100 Reported on forum.saxontheweb.net
1015 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxquest.com/popPhotoViewer.asp?ProdCode=1015LeblancAlto&AtImage=9&productname=MINT+Vintage+G+Leblanc+System+Rational e+Alto+Sax+SN+1015&PhotoNum=27
1105 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1105/
1121 Alto 1969 Model 100 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php
1134 Alto Model 100 www.howarth.uk.com/acrobat/Sax-Flute2h.pdf
1135 Alto Model 100 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html
1142 Alto told 1953ish Model 100 pm saxontheweb – bought via ebay from a seller in France
1180 Alto Model 100 http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/System/Alto/2-tone/1180/
1195 Alto Model 100 www.saxalley.com/saxophones.html
8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html


Leblanc Semi Rationale Saxophones
SR B 70 Alto Semi Rationale http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/Leblanc/Semi-Rationale/alto/silver/ex1/
SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_s.r./

[SaxSanDiego]

Just to add to your list, I have a Leblanc system alto, SN 223. DoctorSax did an excellent job of bringing it back to life for me (http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_2xx.htm). It does not have a high F# key and it does not possess as many key-height adjustment screws as the later horns. It was purchased new. A family member claims it was bought in 1952 but I have no proof of that. My earliest memory of it is 1959 but by then it had been in the family for at least several years.

[FremontSax]

Just to add to your list, I have a Leblanc system alto, SN 223. DoctorSax did an excellent job of bringing it back to life for me (http://www.doctorsax.biz/leblanc_2xx.htm). It does not have a high F# key and it does not possess as many key-height adjustment screws as the later horns. It was purchased new. A family member claims it was bought in 1952 but I have no proof of that. My earliest memory of it is 1959 but by then it had been in the family for at least several years.

Thanks San Diego,

So 223, was owned by a member of your family and you had Doctor Sax refurbish it?

223 would be earliest number on our list. Being able to pin it to the early 1950's would be cool.

Looking at your pictures I do see the adjustment screws, yours are different then mine in that I have what looks like a washer with a felt pad on the bottom so that the tone hole cover strikes the felt and thus wouldn't clank. Is there felt that I can't see or rubber or cork on the bottom of your saxes screws? This sax is definitely not a model 100. Thus, I think you have something rare.

Besides missing, the high F# key you also are missing one connection rod to the low b tone hole cover. One of the main features of the Leblanc system horns was that pressing any of the three finger keys on the lower stack (left hand) would lower a note from the upper stack by 1/2.

Keying an B on the upper stack and your right hand middle finger key would thus blow an A sharp. Similarly no keys press on the upper stack is a C# but pressing your right hand ring finger would cause the note to be a C. If you haven't already would you mind checking your sax and seeing if this is true?

I am starting to revert my opinion about the time frame of these saxes. Would you mind, giving us your approximate age... For example, if you were born in 1950 I would expect your memories of 1959 to be much better then if you were born in 1957.

I am also back to wondering about about the serial number sequences of vito and Leblanc. Has anybody seen where two saxes other then the "A" had the same serial number?

Edited to add:

I don't see a good photo of your serial number in Doctorsax's pictures. Could you take one and send it to me. I am really interested in comparing how serial numbers where applied, how uniform and if they were put on before the finish or after. Also, your case is very interesting. Its outside is very similar to my Vito Model 35 case on the outside other then the clasps and it has a different inside setup up and color felt.

Thanks for sharing it,

Edit: Further changes.

Going back and looking at the pictures of SN 341. 341 has the high F# but it also lacks the low B extra rod. 341 has a case very similar to your. 341 has adjustment screws are similar to yours? then to my tenor sn 775.

Edit: more additions

Looking at the photos of SR B 70 it also lacks the low B extra rod but it might have a high f# it has a unique set of keys for thr side of the left hand pointer finger. From SR series to 223 to 341 are we looking at the transition from a system rational to a Leblanc system?

[SaxSanDiego]

FremontSax - In answer to your questions, there is cork under the key-height adjustment screws that come in contact with the top of the keycups.

I have a copy of the Leblanc fingering chart and my saxophone has all the alternate fingerings (and produces all the corresponding tones) listed in the chart except for the one requiring the high F# key. So, yes, pressing any of the three left-hand keys lowers the note by a half tone. Like all Leblanc system saxophones, the intonation is excellent.

I'm not sure why Leblanc bothered to add the extra high F# key because the alternate fingering chart shows that this note can also be produced on Leblanc system horns by pressing the front high F key plus the B-flat right-hand side key. This note is easily produced without going into the altissimo range.

In response to the age of my saxophone I called an older family member. She readily remembers playing this Leblanc when she was in fouth grade during the 1952-1953 school year. It was not purchased for her so it was acquired well before the fall of 1952. To this, one has to add the unknown amount of time it sat on the store shelf before it was purchased.

As per your request for a picture of the serial number:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/28823461@N07/

Although my saxophone is the earliest on your list, DoctorSax has pictures of SN 122 on his website (http://doctorsax.biz/rationale_122.htm). There are differences between my horn and SN 122. You have already noted differences between my horn and SN 341. What I conclude from this is that these saxophones were, to some degree, hand made, and that the factory made design changes along the way that stabilized, somewhat, after about SN 500.

[warp x]

I the fingering chart they also mention the model which has an open low C#. Has anyone actually seen one of these? My guess is it was a custom order.

[Collie]

Just a little note :
Comparing the hole bunch of pictures now provided of these rare and - at least technically - fascinating saxes something very interesting seems to show up.

There are a lot of changes during the manufacturing time of the altos. The way the adjustment screws were positioned, the different versions of the front-F-key, singls and double rods for the bell keys, some of the keywork of the upper stack also changed as well as the lower octave hole.
The very late system alto also shows a different body-bow connection (in the same way as the Vito system altos were built) and a different neck receiver (seems to have changed during the 5xx-run).

The tenor did not follow these rules. The neck receiver always looks the same way as the later (post 5xx) altos and the adjustment links always seem to be the same, as the front-F-key does, no signifigant changes in the upper stack keywork or the positioning of the lower octave vent. Even in the run 4xx, where the alto significantly differs.
They changed the positioning of the G# key and doubled the bell key rods.
:confused:

To make a long story even longer ;) :
The Vito alto is (compared to a 5xx alto) a very different horn. The neck tenon is larger, the bell is larger and its sound is more on the dark, mellow side.

Now to the questions, this story is causing:
Did Leblanc change the neck tenon on their altos (by 5xx)?
Did the very late System horns slowly morphe to the Vito 35 (apart from the adjustment screws)
Are the toneholes of the late System altos still soldered on?
Are there as well differences in sound?

Are there (more) changes in the tenor production such as a different bore size?
Why do the tenors differ that much from the altos even in the same serial run?

Hmmm....that's all folks ... for now :D

[coastalstorm25]

I have a Vito Alto Sax #4402A Kenosha that comes in a LeBlanc case, the case looks old. Can you give me any info on this?

[Collie]

Hi coastalstorm,

there are a lot of infos about the Vitos on this site:
http://www.doctorsax.biz/vito_ser_nos.htm

I am pretty sure you will find what you are looking for.
Judging by the serial this might be a Kenosha made Vito....looking a bit like the "35".
It might be useful to use "Kenosha" as additional keyword for your search in the Vito forum.

I think they are really good horns, very much underrated (unfortunately as all vintage Vitos).

[warp x]

Some interesting reading here. (http://www.todayaq.com/saxophone-market/models-03951.html)

[Gobo Diddly]

Hello, Saxophonists!!!!

I'm a 44 year old, been in the business for 25 years, jazz musician, recently turned band director in New York City. The very old school where I teach has a LeBlanc alto SN 612 that's been in the band closet for God only knows how long. Here are some pics...

Now I'm a rhythm section player and not so familiar with woodwinds and I'm concerned that the repair person that just suggested that I "get rid" of this horn may not have my best intentions in heart. What do you think this horn is worth? Am I correct to think that this horn was made in France? $$$$ This horn was stored and not in use, but looks to be in good shape, other than some lacquer issues. Is this horn "too good" to put in the hands of a high school student? (even a responsible one) Or am I thinking that I have a horn that is worth more than it really is? Who's the best, most honest, fair-priced sax repair person in Manhattan that I should build a relationship with?

Many thanks for your help....

[FremontSax]

Hello, Saxophonists!!!!

I'm a 44 year old, been in the business for 25 years, jazz musician, recently turned band director in New York City. The very old school where I teach has a LeBlanc alto SN 612 that's been in the band closet for God only knows how long. Here are some pics...

Now I'm a rhythm section player and not so familiar with woodwinds and I'm concerned that the repair person that just suggested that I "get rid" of this horn may not have my best intentions in heart. What do you think this horn is worth? Am I correct to think that this horn was made in France? $$$$ This horn was stored and not in use, but looks to be in good shape, other than some lacquer issues. Is this horn "too good" to put in the hands of a high school student? (even a responsible one) Or am I thinking that I have a horn that is worth more than it really is? Who's the best, most honest, fair-priced sax repair person in Manhattan that I should build a relationship with?

Many thanks for your help....


This has the potential to be a very nice saxophone. They are fairly rare and when working and properly set up sound wonderful. Out here in CA I had an alto rebuilt for $600.00. This was a complete strip, clean, re-pad and tune. I am thinking that as is would be worth worth around $600 rebuilt $1200.

[saintsday]

Hello, Saxophonists!!!!

I'm a 44 year old, been in the business for 25 years, jazz musician, recently turned band director in New York City. The very old school where I teach has a LeBlanc alto SN 612 that's been in the band closet for God only knows how long. Here are some pics...

Now I'm a rhythm section player and not so familiar with woodwinds and I'm concerned that the repair person that just suggested that I "get rid" of this horn may not have my best intentions in heart. What do you think this horn is worth? Am I correct to think that this horn was made in France? $$$$ This horn was stored and not in use, but looks to be in good shape, other than some lacquer issues. Is this horn "too good" to put in the hands of a high school student? (even a responsible one) Or am I thinking that I have a horn that is worth more than it really is? Who's the best, most honest, fair-priced sax repair person in Manhattan that I should build a relationship with?

Many thanks for your help....


This has the potential to be a very nice saxophone. They are fairly rare and when working and properly set up sound wonderful. Out here in CA I had an alto rebuilt for $600.00. This was a complete strip, clean, re-pad and tune. I am thinking that as is would be worth worth around $600 rebuilt $1200.

I think that Fremont is pretty close with his numbers in the current market. I've seen lacquer altos represented as being in playing condition, but not freshly overhauled, range from about 800 to 1500 over the last several years. Given how nicely they play and the low production it seems like they should sell for more when you compare them to a new Yamaha. In my opinion (which with 4 bucks or so will get you a latte da da) they are undervalued.

[warp x]

Alto #145 spotted here. (http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=118780)

[Gobo Diddly]

Thanks for your help, guys!

So gather I should then keep and repair/rebuild(if necessary) and have our most deserving alto player use it?

Any suggestions on NYC repair people that are good/honest/reasonable in price?

Best, gobo

[FremontSax]

Thanks for your help, guys!

So gather I should then keep and repair/rebuild(if necessary) and have our most deserving alto player use it?

Any suggestions on NYC repair people that are good/honest/reasonable in price?

Best, gobo

I can't help you with rebuilds in NYC. But this sax deserves to have a tech who knows its history work on it. As a suggestion, how about auctioning this sax off and using the proceeds to buy a couple of good student level instruments? If a tech would take on the work and a few of us leblanc lovers would chip in you might get 2 or 3 saxes or other instruments out of the deal.

[Gobo Diddly]

I can't help you with rebuilds in NYC. But this sax deserves to have a tech who knows its history work on it. As a suggestion, how about auctioning this sax off and using the proceeds to buy a couple of good student level instruments? If a tech would take on the work and a few of us leblanc lovers would chip in you might get 2 or 3 saxes or other instruments out of the deal.

Thanks FremontSax.

That's good advice that I truly need to weight. So based on the horn that currently for sale and the true condition of ours, we could expect anwhere from 500 to 1200 for it?

But on the other hand we've got loads of instruments at the school now, over 10 altos and tenors each, plus two bari's. So I don't really need more, but better. From reading the posts on this thread it seems that when fixed by an experienced tech, the horns are great playing. Right?

Plus, I guess it's time for me to invite some saxophone playing friends in town to come over to the school for some second opinions based on actually seeing and playing the horns.

Thanks again and I'll let you all know what happens.

[FremontSax]

From reading the posts on this thread it seems that when fixed by an experienced tech, the horns are great playing. Right?

Yes

Plus, I guess it's time for me to invite some saxophone playing friends in town to come over to the school for some second opinions based on actually seeing and playing the horns.

This is a very good idea.

[AMASAX]

Some interesting reading here. (http://www.todayaq.com/saxophone-market/models-03951.html)

I don't like the fact that the todayaq.com guy ripped off MY comments for most of his 'answers' to his Leblanc writeup. Most of the answers are, in fact, posts that I've made for SOTW. Then, he claims to 'copyright' it at the bottom of the article.

No credit, no nada, just ripping off me and SOTW.

[AMASAX]

btw, my earlier post about a 13xx serial number is correct. Came across it again digging around in my garage, where i have this stuff stored.

I didn't write down the serial, don't remember it exactly, but was surprised that it was so high. I haven't looked at any of my Leblanc horns in a while, but was digging out a couple 'rough' ones to peddle on ebay or wherever.

If anyone is interested in one or two Leblanc altos with crap lacquer, but good bodies, send me a pm. They definitely need overhauls, but I bought 'em as backups and/or parts horns, but never got around to using 'em.

Will try to get some pics together shortly...

[FremontSax]

Model 120 Tenor sold for $1525 on ebay sn 428
Model 100 Alto sold for $725 on ebay no reported sn
Model 100 Alto sold for $600 on Ebay no reported sn

[Walter Webb]

I have been searching the web for Leblanc Saxophones trying to put a serial number list together this is what I have found.
Serial Number Type Year Source
542 Tenor Semi Rationale 1950's http://doctorsax.biz/LeBlanc_Rationale_Tenor.htm
681 Alto 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_altsax/
752 Tenor 1960 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/tenor_saxofoon/leblanc_tenorsax/
1121 Alto Semi Rationale 1969 www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_eng.php
8044 1964 www.musictrader.com/leblanc.html
SR B 92 Alto Semi Rationale 1950 http://www.muziekcentrumvangorp.nl/blaasinstrumenten/saxofoon/alt_saxofoon/leblanc_s.r./

Here is an eBay seller with LeBlanc tenor #670 who says it's from 1960:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Beaugnier-LeBlanc-Paris-France-Tenor-Saxophone-1960_W0QQitemZ290368276797QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item439b4c493d#ht_3459wt_941

That seems to fit in with #s 681 and 752 cited above to be from 1960.

[warp x]

There's a Leblanc ad on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/1974-Corky-Corcoran-Photo-Vintage-Leblanc-Saxophone-Ad_W0QQitemZ380172314802QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20091 028?IMSfp=TL091028199006r24134#ht_1675wt_941) with Corky Corcoran, tenor soloist with Harry James and Lionel Hampton. In the ad they mention his latest album 'Everywhere' which was recorded in 1973. The ad itself is from 1974. So anyway, these horns were still in production in the mid-seventies. Sadly I can't really make out any details about his horn from the picture in the ad. It's a nice read.

Edit: I did some googling on Corky Corcoran, he was a hell of a player.:)
http://corkycorcoran.net/
http://www.jonpolless.com/#Corky_

[Walter Webb]

There's a Leblanc ad on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/1974-Corky-Corcoran-Photo-Vintage-Leblanc-Saxophone-Ad_W0QQitemZ380172314802QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20091 028?IMSfp=TL091028199006r24134#ht_1675wt_941) with Corky Corcoran, tenor soloist with Harry James and Lionel Hampton. In the ad they mention his latest album 'Everywhere' which was recorded in 1973. The ad itself is from 1974. So anyway, these horns were still in production in the mid-seventies. Sadly I can't really make out any details about his horn from the picture in the ad. It's a nice read.

Edit: I did some googling on Corky Corcoran, he was a hell of a player.:)
http://corkycorcoran.net/
http://www.jonpolless.com/#Corky_

I can see several details: the large humped upper octave key bar, the forked Eb breather key at the bottom of the stack, and just enough G.LEBLANC engraving on the bell. He says the (Paris) 120 is available for immediate delivery from your LeBlanc dealer!

Perhaps there weren't many on the dealer's shelf, but had to be special ordered. Maybe they could get you in the door and sell you one of those new-fangled Japanese Vitos, or something from Kenosha for a third of the price.

[FremontSax]

Edit: I did some googling on Corky Corcoran, he was a hell of a player.:)
http://corkycorcoran.net/
http://www.jonpolless.com/#Corky_

Good find Warpx

Very Cool ....... well worth listening to the music.

[Collie]

hmmmm....maybe they produced several hundreds in the 50s and they still were lying around at the shops? :D

The age of this special horn always will be hard to determine. Even if someone would say, he bought the serial 250 new in 1955, nobody knows how long it had been lying around.
I think they were just way too special

[warp x]

There's a Leblanc ad on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/1974-Corky-Corcoran-Photo-Vintage-Leblanc-Saxophone-Ad_W0QQitemZ380172314802QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20091 028?IMSfp=TL091028199006r24134#ht_1675wt_941) with Corky Corcoran, tenor soloist with Harry James and Lionel Hampton. In the ad they mention his latest album 'Everywhere' which was recorded in 1973. The ad itself is from 1974. So anyway, these horns were still in production in the mid-seventies. Sadly I can't really make out any details about his horn from the picture in the ad. It's a nice read.

Edit: I did some googling on Corky Corcoran, he was a hell of a player.:)
http://corkycorcoran.net/
http://www.jonpolless.com/#Corky_

I can see several details: the large humped upper octave key bar, the forked Eb breather key at the bottom of the stack, and just enough G.LEBLANC engraving on the bell. He says the (Paris) 120 is available for immediate delivery from your LeBlanc dealer!

Perhaps there weren't many on the dealer's shelf, but had to be special ordered. Maybe they could get you in the door and sell you one of those new-fangled Japanese Vitos, or something from Kenosha for a third of the price.

Well yes, I can see all that too. I meant I can't see if he's holding the model with the G-Sharp on the side or on the back, or any other details like that.

[warp x]

I think they were just way too special

My guess too. Who wants to buy a horn with a manual?:D

[FremontSax]

I can see several details: the large humped upper octave key bar, the forked Eb breather key at the bottom of the stack, and just enough G.LEBLANC engraving on the bell. He says the (Paris) 120 is available for immediate delivery from your LeBlanc dealer!

Perhaps there weren't many on the dealer's shelf, but had to be special ordered. Maybe they could get you in the door and sell you one of those new-fangled Japanese Vitos, or something from Kenosha for a third of the price.

In this thread there is a link to a Leblanc pricing guide for 1974 as I recall. In that price guide the model 100 and model 120 are included. I don't think, leblanc would be including them unless they were willing to manufacture and ship them. Also their listed price was very expensive by todays dollars.

In 1974 a model 100 alto which was listed at 354.64 pounds would have cost $829.86 here in the US. and adjusting for inflation that would be $3584.41 in 2008.
a model 120 tenor which was listed at 427.96 pounds would have cost $1001.43 here in the US and adjusting for inflation that would be $4325.47 in 2008.

[Collie]

does anybody have any idea, what had to be payed for the competitors those days?