Swabs and Swabbing

[Gordon (NZ)]

A forum member has emailed me to ask for my recommendation for swabbing a sax. I decided to answer here, to perhaps encourage discussion.

My answer is that I don't know. The issue raises so many questions. Some saxes get very mucky &/or corroded where pads seal, in spite of swabbing. I have seen saxes lined with 0.5 mm of off-white, cheesy goo. Some instruments remain relatively pristine in spite of no swabbing. I'm sure if you consider all these issues you can make a fairly wise decision. To me, questions 2 & 3 are very interesting ones to consider, but so difficult to answer.

1. Just what are we trying to remove - condensed moisture? saliva? particles of dead tissue from mouth/tongue lining? Food/sugar/beer/smoke particles? Every player seems to be different. Frequency of playing is an issue.
2. Does a swab actually absorb this liquid &/or solid matter, or push it into the tone holes where it is retain by capillary action at the tone hole edge, where it does most damage?
3. Which does more damage to pads.... remaining damp, or constant cycling of dry/wet/dry/wet/...
4. Is it the moisture that kills non-waterproof pads by hardening them, or is it enzymes, calcium, etc in saliva?
5. Does dry silk, or dry chamois actually absorb ANY moisture?
6. Clean cotton absorbs moisture well, but does it drop lint to do a lot of damage where pads seal?
7. Which other materials drop lint?
8. Should other materials be considered - microfibre, ultrasuede, synthetic car chamois.....?
9. Does a pull-through swab actually wipe in the vicinity of the Eb tone hole, or cut the corner and avoid this location?
10. Are the rag-over-short-bottle-brush-pull-through, and the shove-its, the only swabs that clean the wider parts of a tapered bore?
11. Does the bell actually need to be swabbed?
12. Are there any shove-its that DON'T drop lint? If so, do they absorb moisture?
13. Should any swab be kept inside the case? See 3.
14. Does a shove-it kept inside the instrument reduce air circulation to the degree that it encourages mould on pads?
15. Should the case be simply left open for a while for evaporation to occur, instead of swabbing?
16. If the player has only limited time to pack up instruments, or is not conscientious about swabbing later, is a shove-it kept inside the instrument the only way the instrument's bore will EVER be wiped?
17. Does the sax have 'waterproof' pads. If so, does this alter decisions on swabbing?

[Joseph Boucher]

That's a good question. A tough one at that too. I don't think I'm qualified to answer it. I'd have to look to the experts like a good sax tech for an answer on that one. Saaay...someone like...... Gordon (NZ). Joe

[FrankB2]

I drilled a 1/4" hole in the bottom of my sax's bell to allow
moisture to drip out. Since then, I don't bother with any
sort of swabbing. I do hook my mpc onto a post in the
dishwahser once a week, and it seems pretty clean. Any
muck that builds up on the pads can only help to seal them, so
I don't worry about that either. Hope this helps.

Frank

[Joseph Boucher]

FrankB2, With a 1/4" drain hole in the bow, do you keep your sax on a stand to help the drainage. The hole dosen't affect the sound on the lower keys, like an air leak? Joe

[FrankB2]

Yeah, I suppose airleaks are the only drawback. I can't play any
bell tones, but I've thought about using a small cork when playing
songs that require............I'M JUST PULLING YOUR LEG<GRIN>.
I do NOT have a hole in the bow of my sax. I was up working on
a classical guitar last night, and decided to get a little goofy after
reading Gordon's post. Actually, I described my swabbing technique
on another forum here earlier in the evening. If you happen to
read that post, the part about using chopsticks IS serious<GRIN>.

Frank

[MBushaw]

I don't believe there is any easy way to quickly remove moisture from a sax. Air dry is the only sure method.
This changes the discussion to what form of swabbing produces the least damage wile absorbing the most free moisture. I think most swabs do push some moisture into the toneholes, but they also absorb a lot of moisture along the way. Of course, if you put anything in your mouth except water before / while playing, your only hope is a visit to the horn doctor every 6 months for a cleaning.
I use a silk pull-thru on my horns and a Hodge swab on bari. I leave the case open overnight to allow air dry.

[Joseph Boucher]

FrankB2, I sure wish I had read your reply to my quetion to you, BEFORE!!! I drilled a 1/4" hole in my MK VI.

[FrankB2]

Sorry about that<GRIN>.

Frank

[Joseph Boucher]

FrankB2, That's all right I've decided it would make a great lamp.

[FrankB2]

A sax lamp would look pretty cool. I'm basing this on the multi-directional
lighting I get when using a leak light in my sax<GRIN>. Makes a
dark room look like a discoteque(sp?).

Frank

[Joseph Boucher]

FrankB2, They have one for sale on ebay. A MK VI made into a lamp. I knew there had to be some good use for an old MK VI.

[Joseph Boucher]

Gordon (NZ), What do you do about moisture in your own sax? Joe.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I don't play it enough at a spell for condensed moisture to be much of an issue. I don't seem to blow saliva or food down the instrument.

I typically have to pack up 5 instruments after a show, so I don't do significant cleaning until the end of the 2-weak season, otherwise I would be locked into the theatre. I just shove a pad saver in - I have no idea why! - and put the instrument away. I don't even take the reed off. People seem to get quite carried away over these things, so I just join in with the fray for a stir. :lol:

[Joseph Boucher]

Gordon (NZ), Very interesting. So you use a pad saver and that's about it. Many techs here say we shouldn't use a pad saver and others say it's okay. I frankly don't know who is right. Do you swab out your sax neck and mouthpiece? How are your pads holding up and how much playing time do you get from a reed? My biggest question is, how did sax players from the 1920s,30s,40s, and 50s take care of their saxes? I don't think that pull through swabs and pad savers were even invented back then. I doubt that many pros back then used key oil or gig dust on their pads either. I also think that reed protectors/holders were not around during that time. I've got questions too. Who has the answers? Joe.

[Gordon (NZ)]

I am a tech. I sell nothing. Pad savers vary a lot in how much lint they leave. I rarely swab my neck or mouthpiece, simply because nothing much collects there.

Everybody has to make their won decision on swabbing, I think my initial post covers the topic well enough to make an individual decision. I would be just as happy not to use a pad saver, because I do see SOME lint. That DOES damage pads.

My pads are fine. The life of pads depends on many factors, as I listed under "Pad Life" in the "Pads and Resonators" section.

Reeds - I've never added the hours. I'd say several 15-performance sasons of shows, including home practice and rehearsals, but the playing time is spread over 4 or 5 instruments.

[danodownunder]

the HW padsavers are better than say the La Voz ones, they are softer and don't drop lint. As A repair tech heaps of vintage horns are lined with goo so i guess some of them have never been cleaned. Sugar is the big enemy and what you drink and eat is how it gets there. I, like Gordon shove in a padsaver and i even leave the mth pce on the neck and my cork lasts longer than when i didn't so go figure, I do take my horns out of there cases and leave them on stands at home and they dry out well. And as i don't drink sugery drinks on the gig I don't have any stickyness.

[Joseph Boucher]

I think you have a good point there about leaving the mpc on the neck. I got my first sax at age eight and played it for six years. Never taking the mpc off after playing. I saved money on cork grease and never had to replace the neck cork. My next sax was new and all my saxes have been new since. But now I'm smarter(?) I remove the mpc. I have also replaced a fair amount of corks too. I guess what wears out the cork is the constant pushing on and pulling of the mpc. Joe.

[Gandalfe]

I left my mouthpiece on my alto one night (rough night, what can I say) and the cork became discolored, actually quite dark. Four months later it is still dark and I haven't left the mouthpiece on since. I'm not sure what happened there, but I don't do that anymore.

[Stencilman]

Jumping in here. Rather than use the typical swab or shove-it, I went to the sporting goods store and bought some stuff to clean shotgun barrels. It consists of 2 or 3 aluminum rods that screw together. There's a handle on one end and an eye on the other that you put cotton patches in. It is only slightly more tedious to use than a swab but you throw away the slimy patch when you are done. The tool and 100 lint-free patches cost me just $5 total.

You can buy several sizes of patches or cut your own. I've also used lint-free wipes used in optical and electronics work. If I have time, I drag a wipe under the palm key, G#, F#, and low Eb pads after I clean out the bore.

There are all sorts of brushes and swabs for cleaning guns that could be used for cleaning out mouthpieces and they are cheaper than the real thing from the music store.

Lately, I've been using wipes for cleaning car leather under the pads on one of my horns once a week. The canister says it cleans and protects leather without hardening (kinda spooky to put it on pads). This one horn had horrible pad sticking trouble and I was about to do a complete repad so I thought I'd give this stuff a try. Its been about a month and I've had no sticking problems. I don't know if this stuff has any negative effects on the pads over time, but it has solved the sticking problem on this one horn.

[Hornlip]

I've got a silk swab and a pad-saver type. I've found the silk pull-through absorbs a lot of liquid. Generally I pull it through once and then pull it through again, slowly, holding the cord with my teeth & holding all the open keys closed too get at any moisture on those pads (the "teeth" manouevre is much harder on tenor!!).

I don't much like the pad-saver swap. It gets pretty linty, and I don't think it's all that absorbent. Occassionally I'll use it after the silk-swab, if I think I'm not going to play that horn for a while & I want to make sure it gets good & dry before I stow it.

I have a neck-swab that's similar to the pad-saver -- I use that all the time on the neck & the mouthpiece. It works well, drawing out enough moisture to allow a quick air-dry.

So far, so good. I don't have much problems with any kind of build-up or gunk, except on the beak of my (rubber) mouthpiece, & if I'm vigilant about cleaning that I don't see much build-up there, either.

[Joseph Boucher]

Stencilman, I like your idea about using a shotgun cleaning brush in your sax. I have an alto and wonder if I should buy the 12 ga. or 20 ga. cleaning brush? Would a .410 ga. brush be best for a sop? :P

[Stencilman]

I use lint-free KimWipes in the shotgun pushrod. I cut the large size into 3 sizes appropriate for sop, alto and tenor. I like being able to throw away the wipe when I'm done.

[Hurling Frootmig]

I've always used a swab after playing through my horn. Periodically I will use my neck "cleaner". I always make sure to shake out the extra moisture from my neck and run my mouthpiece under slightly warm water with a little soap. When needed I give the mouthpiece a good cleaning using a baby bottle brush.

I have one horn that has only been cleaned with this treatment for almost 25 years and it still looks acceptably clean in the bell. I've received other horns that were filthy dirty and I had my tech acid bath them.

I also try to wipe off any pads that get a lot of moisture such as the G Sharp pad and the palm key pads.

[stevesklar]

Interesting information. I repadded my Selmer maybe a year ago or so. And I was using a Shove-it - an older model but I was still using one. I would use it to clean out the sax after playing (pull in /out a couple of time to get the condensation buildup) and leave it in the horn.

Anyways, I was inspecting it this morning and I noticed alot of shove it 'dust' per say - aka lint. Just little shove-it lint here and there. and some if it was well located in the pad indentation here and there and thus some stuck on the tone hole chimney itself.

I tore the horn apart, cleaned everything, replaced a couple pads with some significant lint buildup. now all is good as new.

Long story short - I plan on using a regular sax swap from now on. The shove-it (and a newer model may create less 'dust bunnies') is leaving residual stuff in the wrong places.