Holton 241

[rossbu]

Hi all,

Can anyone tell me something about these horns? Pro level? Not? Advantages/disadvantages?

I have a chance to buy one - lacquer, which is in surprisingly fine shape, will need pads. From what little that I could play sounded really good. The guy selling it is asking $300 but said that he'd negotiate. Comes with a very old scroll shank, Link New York metal mouthpiece, which was shockingly good - didn't look terrific but played.

I really could use any advice that anyone could offer,

Burt

[BlueTrane2028]

It's worthless, especially the mouthpieces.

Seriously, I kid. I don't know much about the horn, but the Link itself would probably fetch more than 300 by itself (if it's a vintage NY, not a current production). In short, buy it.

[rossbu]

Thanks BlueTrane2028 - the mouthpiece is, indeed old, and seemed to really play well. As mentioned, actually, considering the state of the pads, the horn wasn't too bad either - again, thanks for the input!


Burt

[geauxsax]

My Holton tenor is significantly older than a 241 and I love mine, and I haven't played one, but the 241's have gotten rave reviews from others--check through the Holton forums. A silver-plate 241 went for $1200 on ebay last year. If you don't want it, let me know how to get my hands on it.:D

[NissanMarkVII]

$1200 last year, will be $600 this year :( . Buyers market :) .

[geauxsax]

$1200 last year, will be $600 this year :( . Buyers market :) .

Cool with me!

[rossbu]

Hey thanks for the economy stuff!

I did buy this horn and would be interested in selling - I'll post it under for sale before the end of the weekend!


Burt

[geauxsax]

Terrific! Please post pics with the sale if possible.

[jazzbug1]

For $300, I would book a DC-3 to fly down there to buy it. You already love the horn. If you don't like the Link, it should sell for at least $300. GRAB IT FAST or the DC-3 will arrive.

[JayeSF]

$1200 last year, will be $600 this year :( . Buyers market :) .

Um....$390...I just landed one one eFlay, should be here next Monday......

There's one up there with a $750 BIN and it hasn't moved in 21 days. Good likelihood once that ad expires (in a few days) someone can talk the seller down to $600....

I am really hecka excited to check this horn out. I gotta say..the internet is a weird place when it comes to vintage horns...folks just state their opinions and somehow, it becomes accepted as rock-solid truth. I cannot tell you how many horns I have tried with poor intrnet reps as nothing other than student-level mediocrity...and they were just gorgeous, smokin' horns. Hoping the 241 fills that bill, too.

My favorite comment on Holton has gotta be THIS chestnut from saxpics.com ( a very good source for info on vintage horns, usually):

"I'm of the opinion that Holton more_or_less submitted to the fact that, after 1925 or so, they could never really compete with the other big saxophone makers like Conn and Buescher. They do produce a quite respectable line of brasswinds, but I think they produced saxophones for the sake of saying, "We offer an entire line of band instruments"....
"There aren't a lot of Holton models worth mentioning, so no jump station. Go here for a serial number chart."

Ouch.

But then again, statements like that...help players like us.....so, shhhhhhhhh.....

[geauxsax]

$1200 last year, will be $600 this year :( . Buyers market :) .

Um....$390...I just landed one one eFlay, should be here next Monday......

There's one up there with a $750 BIN and it hasn't moved in 21 days. Good likelihood once that ad expires (in a few days) someone can talk the seller down to $600....



Jaye--silver or lacquer? You gotta update us (with pics of course:D) in the Holton section.

And that one for $750 BIN has been there a lot longer than 21 days. They just keep relisting it. Been there months.

[JayeSF]

Lacquer. Believe me, I certainly will post pics when it gets here !!!! (trying to control my enthusiasm, but I am kinda stoked...)

Might have gone kinda low because the auction TITLE just said "Holton Tenor", not 241.

But it DID get over 350 views on a 7-day, so...who knows ?

(Regarding the BIN one, the sellers seem like good folk. I kinda nudged 'em to add a "Best Offer" button, but they wouldn't go for it. After some Q's and A's....I told them that it sounded like the thing would need some substantial repadding (perhaps not entire) so they may wanna consider dropping the price since tech work costs $.

Dunno, though, may be a consignment horn (?)....)

[geauxsax]

Cool--Those things are supposed to roar!

[NissanMarkVII]

Holtons, Vitos, and Bundys.

All top-notch pro saxes in their hayday! But later turned to a student model, so that's all the general public knows them as :) . Makes it nice for people like us who want a Professional sax, with Professional sound, at a student model price :D .

[NissanMarkVII]

Slow forum, double post

[geauxsax]

Agree. Holtons though were singled out for particularly bad press throughout the years making them the big bargain of the three.

[jazzbug1]

The initial restoration of my Holton #244 tenor reveals solid nickel alloy keys under someone's home lacquer job. Fortunately, they did not coat the body. The nickel polishes like chrome. Martin used nickel keys starting in the mid-30s. Unfortunately, the look of nickel keys on a brass body was later associated with cheaper student horns of the mid-50s and later. There is nothing cheap about the quality of Holtons and Martins of the 1930s through the 1950s. The engraving I've seen on the #241s is of the 1920s floral pattern which carried over into the 1930s. There is currently a nice tenor on EBay. My #244 has a very odd bell engraving, which for want of a better term, looks like multiple swirling bands of fish scales. This is the first time I have seen this engraving. There is also a finely engineered roller on the F key arm which connects to the F-B key alternate Bb fingering. It is there to eliminate any sliding friction on the arm from the usual cork pad when that fingering is used. It's overly-engineered like a Mercedes-Benz.

[geauxsax]

The initial restoration of my Holton #244 tenor reveals solid nickel alloy keys under someone's home lacquer job. Fortunately, they did not coat the body. The nickel polishes like chrome. Martin used nickel keys starting in the mid-30s. Unfortunately, the look of nickel keys on a brass body was later associated with cheaper student horns of the mid-50s and later. There is nothing cheap about the quality of Holtons and Martins of the 1930s through the 1950s. The engraving I've seen on the #241s is of the 1920s floral pattern which carried over into the 1930s. There is currently a nice tenor on EBay. My #244 has a very odd bell engraving, which for want of a better term, looks like multiple swirling bands of fish scales. This is the first time I have seen this engraving. There is also a finely engineered roller on the F key arm which connects to the F-B key alternate Bb fingering. It is there to eliminate any sliding friction on the arm from the usual cork pad when that fingering is used. It's overly-engineered like a Mercedes-Benz.

My 232 altos sound similar. I'm not a tech, but the mechanism for the RH bell keys is fairly intricate. It seems to work well too IMHO. The necks have the same neat spring and pivot you described on your 244 as well. I need to get one of them overhauled to see what the potential is on these babies.

[JayeSF]

Well...I rec'd the 241 today. Serial 164,XXX....makes it a '46. You know...by now...I should really know to keep my enthusiasm curbed on an eBay horn. It needs some work, as was to be expected. For some reason almost all of the key corks are missing, although the pads seem in decent shape. But she is leaking quite a but, although I rectified some of that w/ my light and a once-over....

Ergos seem OK to me...pinky table a bit large and squarish, but nothing I can't get used to. Weird location for the neckstrap eye...but someone else here once pointed out that Holtons tend to feel better in the up-front position as opposed to side-saddle....so, again, nothing I couldn't get used to quickly....lacq is OK, at about 70%. Significant dent below the thumbrest but the tonehole above appears unaffected. Also looks like bellbrace was resoldered to the body at some point....are 241's bell braces off-center, usually ? Besides that, the random, usual few small dings and such.

With that said...The TONE on this horn KICKS BUTT. The best rich, low end vntage horn I have tried up until now was actually my GF's '58 Keilwerth New King...a name reputed for their deep, bottom sound. This is very reminiscent of hers...It really cuts through, sweetly.

FAVOR TO ASK: I believe the octave stem may be an after-factory..it just looks odd...can anyone here post or PM me a pic of a 241 octave stem, please ? Grazie in advance.

So, I like her a lot. probably needs a couple hundred of work, but still that puts me at $600 total so, what more can one ask for a great old horn ?

[rossbu]

The 241 I have is with my tech but I will take pictures of the neck when I get it back, Wednesday, I hope. Jaye, for whatever reason, I can't upload pictures on SOTW, so pm me if you want with your e-mail address and I'll e-mail the pictures to you.

Burt

[NissanMarkVII]

My Beaugnier Vito (1950s) I bought on e-bay for a total of $445 (that includes shipping!). I gigged with it the next day, no tweaking :D . Had some minor leaks, so I took it in, and $35 later, screamin sax! Just awesome! This is only the 3rd such e-bay horn (2 saxes, one Alto Clarinet) that played so well right outta the box!

But still, at $600 for a Pro Tenor. Pretty good deal :D . I think any old or vintage USA/French Tenor under $800 is a good buy, depending on condition and brand ($800 being fully playable w/NO work at all needed).

[soybean]

(Did this get posted by mistake here? Seems like a Beaugnier post.)

[JayeSF]

Yes, Nissan....I agree...generally I'll go $400 tops if the horn seems like it can be worked up, but the seller plain out describes it honestly (but I went $550 on my Noblet baritone). If the seller really says "it's ready to play out of the case", then $600-700 or so isn't a bad price to pay for a vintage Tenor.

Of the horns I have gotten on eBay, however, only one (my Noblet alto) was ready to play upon arrival. And I even had to compliment the seller on his tech, who had it beautifully regulated before being auctioned. It was $400, incl. shipping....so, I can certainly deal with that.

This'll be a nice horn after some work....for sure. Just a bit iffy as to whether I feel the seller really described it's condition accurately enuff or not...so, I am in a holding pattern until I take it to a tech...but as I said, it's got a monster sound and is one formidable horn.....

[NissanMarkVII]

(Did this get posted by mistake here? Seems like a Beaugnier post.)

Sorry. I'm still just so excited with my purchase, I was simply trying (at a stretch perhaps) to pull some parrallels in the purchase of the above Holton, and my Vito. Both great deals. I was just bragging a bit ;) . I'll go sit in the corner :) .

[soybean]

I'll go sit in the corner :)Haha… not neccesary. I was just wondering if it was an error. I used to have a Beaugnier tenor.

[JayeSF]

Took it to Lee Kramka, local tech Guru here in SF...hit him on a good week (for me, that is) as he usually has a 2-week backlog; he is gonna get the bend out of the body & check alignment afterwards..I should have it back by the end of the week; will probably still need to throw a few new pads on it, and as I mentioned it seems that most of the keys are missing their corks, but I can do that myself... we'll see. All in all, though $100-150 worth of work/matl's on top of the $390 purchase cost. Not so baaaad....

My 1937 Revelation should be arriving here at about the same time.....

[JayeSF]

Lee did a good job, even removed a bunch of small dents in the process of straightening. Still has some small leaks I am locating, but this horn really roars. I am having some fun with it.....yee-haw.

[geauxsax]

Sweet! Give it a try with several different types of mouthpieces. My (much older) Revelation/Elkhart Tenor isn't biased towards only large chambered pieces as are some other makes like I thougth it would be.