Tips on playing those weird II-Vs on Four?

[magical pig]

Hi all,

I'm trying to add this tune to my repertoire and I have a hard time playing through the II-Vs on bars 3 and 4, 7 and 8 and especially on bars 10 and 14 - the ones resolving a 1/2 step down. Playing through the II-Vs is not problematic, but resolving is.

If I'm not wrong, bars 3 & 4 and 7 & 8 resolve to Eb concert instead of Db and Gb respectively. The II-Vs on bars 10-14 (and 26) resolve unexpectedly to a half step down to Eb again.

How do you deal with those weird II-Vs? Are there any other tunes with these kind of shifts in expected resolution tonal centers?

Finally, I'd like to make sure I got the last 4 bars of the tune right.
|C-7/F7|F-7/Bb7|Ebmaj7|F-7/Bb7|
Is this right?

Thanks.
Victor.

[Mike Cesati]

Mr Magical do you know that most times the 3rd and 4th measure is played Eb- / Ab7 . This is concert changes That's a given up this way .

The real book has something different I believe. Aebersold has it the similar to how I do it.

5th and 6th measure I think Ab Major 7

Last 4 measures I use real book changes or just blow turnaround

G- C7 / F- Bb7 / Eb maj/ Eb maj ( quick 2 bar turnaround here F- Bb7 when moving back to the top.

Most of us here end on Eb 7 dom

[magical pig]

Here's what I have :

[Perry Cobb]

Here are the correct changes...I could send you my SGU file if you'd like...

[CountSpatula]

I've always seen Four played the way Magical Pig has them.

[magical pig]

Hmmm... I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I've "verified" the chart with Miles Davies' original version and Dexter Gordon's on "Bouncing With Dex" and the bass players and pianists definitely play those changes on post #3 except on bar 29 which could be Gm7-Gbm7 and as a consequence another unexpected resolution to the minor II-V on bar 28 (which is definitely there).

Victor.

[CountSpatula]

Hmmm... I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. I've "verified" the chart with Miles Davies' original version and Dexter Gordon's on "Bouncing With Dex" and the bass players and pianists definitely play those changes on post #3 except on bar 29 which could be Gm7-Gbm7 and as a consequence another unexpected resolution to the minor II-V on bar 28 (which is definitely there).

Victor.

Before the last four bars (measure 28) I just have a regular Bb7 like before, and 29 30 and 31 for me go "Gmin7 Gbmin7 | F-7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7"

[magical pig]

Before the last four bars (measure 28) I just have a regular Bb7 like before, and 29 30 and 31 for me go "Gmin7 Gbmin7 | F-7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7"Yeah, I've listened to a few versions again and |Gm7-Gbm7| seems to be the correct changes for bar 29. I'm also 100% sure there's a minor II-V in C on bar 28. How can I be wrong when I've transcribed the chart from recordings? :D

Victor.

[CountSpatula]

Before the last four bars (measure 28) I just have a regular Bb7 like before, and 29 30 and 31 for me go "Gmin7 Gbmin7 | F-7 Bb7 | Ebmaj7"Yeah, I've listened to a few versions again and |Gm7-Gbm7| seems to be the correct changes for bar 29. I'm also 100% sure there's a minor II-V in C on bar 28. How can I be wrong when I've transcribed the chart from recordings? :D

Victor.

Transcribe solos and you should have plenty ideas to play over the tune then :)

And I believe Lazy Bird is quite awkward with it's ii-Vs...just off the top of my head.

[magical pig]

Transcribe solos and you should have plenty ideas to play over the tune then :)

And I believe Lazy Bird is quite awkward with it's ii-Vs...just off the top of my head.You're probably right about transcribing solos, but I'd like to understand how the chords work so I can work on my own stuff too.

I'm going to check out Lazy Bird, thanks!

Victor.

[Kelly Bucheger]

The original illicit Real Book had the wrong changes for this tune -- they work as changes, but they ain't Miles's changes (well, actually, Eddie Vinson's...), and for that reason I hate to call it, because a ton of folks know those changes, and others know the original changes, and worlds collide on the bandstand.

[CountSpatula]

The original illicit Real Book had the wrong changes for this tune -- they work as changes, but they ain't Miles's changes (well, actually, Eddie Vinson's...), and for that reason I hate to call it, because a ton of folks know those changes, and others know the original changes, and worlds collide on the bandstand.

Your right lol. My teacher told me and a partner to memorize Four and play it for the class next week. After I had it down o.k. I went to my partners room to practice/rehearse and realized we were playing completely different changes. She got them from an older edition of the real book and I got mine from the newest one...kind of stupid if you ask me :(

[magical pig]

The original illicit Real Book had the wrong changes for this tune -- they work as changes, but they ain't Miles's changes (well, actually, Eddie Vinson's...), and for that reason I hate to call it, because a ton of folks know those changes, and others know the original changes, and worlds collide on the bandstand.That's why you should KNOW a tune before you play it, meaning you have at least listened to a few versions of the tune. I know it's too much to ask though.

Victor.

[SopAlto1]

NO ONE plays Ab maj in bar 5, its become Fmin. Even Miles, George Coleman, et al. play that. Its the iii chord, then you get that m3 movement up to the Abmin.

Gb min in bar10 & beat 3 of bar 29 is a substitution for C7, a chromatic passing min7. It works because of the movement of the baseline. It also could be F#7, but the "vanilla" chord is C7, its just "gussying up" a iii vi ii v turnaround.

G7 in measure 28 can be V7 of the C7 in measure 29 minor ii v "borrowed" vi or Dim off the tritone7 (every V7 b9 has a dim in it, starting on the 3rd)

Harmony. Geez Louise.

very basic changes:

[ Eb | Eb | Ebm7 | Ab7 |

| Fm7 | Fm7 | Abm7 | Db7 |

| Gm7 | Gbm7 | Fm7 | Bb7 |

| Gm7 | Gbm7 | Fm7 | Bb7 |

|| Eb | Eb | Ebm7 | Ab7 |

| Fm7 | Fm7 | Abm7 | Db7 |

| Gm7 | Gbm7 | Fm7 | G7 |

| Gm7 Gbm7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Eb | Eb |

[Mike Cesati]

Mr. magical do you like the Sonny Rollins version from Live at the Village Vanguard? I'm going to go put that on and see what I can hear for that bar 28. I think 29 is the G- Gb- descending to F- . Your changes look pretty right on to me. That 3-4 bar chage throws alot of people because the real book has Bb- Eb7 moving to the Ab maj in bar 5 but when you hear it with Eb- Ab7 it works much better with the head and the way the harmonic movement is when you play Eb maj then go minor in bar 3.

When it gets called here at jams it's pretty much always played that way.

[magical pig]

NO ONE plays Ab maj in bar 5, its become Fmin. Even Miles, George Coleman, et al. play that. Its the iii chord, then you get that m3 movement up to the Abmin.

Gb min in bar10 & beat 3 of bar 29 is a substitution for C7, a chromatic passing min7. It works because of the movement of the baseline. It also could be F#7, but the "vanilla" chord is C7, its just "gussying up" a iii vi ii v turnaround.

G7 in measure 28 can be V7 of the C7 in measure 29 minor ii v "borrowed" vi or Dim off the tritone7 (every V7 b9 has a dim in it, starting on the 3rd)

Harmony. Geez Louise.

very basic changes:

[ Eb | Eb | Ebm7 | Ab7 |

| Fm7 | Fm7 | Abm7 | Db7 |

| Gm7 | Gbm7 | Fm7 | Bb7 |

| Gm7 | Gbm7 | Fm7 | Bb7 |

|| Eb | Eb | Ebm7 | Ab7 |

| Fm7 | Fm7 | Abm7 | Db7 |

| Gm7 | Gbm7 | Fm7 | G7 |

| Gm7 Gbm7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Eb | Eb |Somehow your explanation and chart don't correspond to each other. :?


Mr. magical do you like the Sonny Rollins version from Live at the Village Vanguard? I'm going to go put that on and see what I can hear for that bar 28. I think 29 is the G- Gb- descending to F- . Your changes look pretty right on to me. That 3-4 bar chage throws alot of people because the real book has Bb- Eb7 moving to the Ab maj in bar 5 but when you hear it with Eb- Ab7 it works much better with the head and the way the harmonic movement is when you play Eb maj then go minor in bar 3.

When it gets called here at jams it's pretty much always played that way.Yeah I think 29 is the descending changes too.
I love that Rollins version. The man is amazing. I'm listening to it right now; bar 28 sounds like a minor II-V to me and Wilbur Ware plays the descending minor chords on bar 29.

Victor.

[magical pig]

Okay, do we agree on this as the chord chart?

Victor.

[CountSpatula]

Looks fine to me

[SoLongEric]

How about learning the versionS from

Blue Haze - Miles in '54 I think the earliest version of Four.

Workin' - 1st Quintet Miles

Vanguard - Rollins

Four & More - Miles w George Coleman

Plugged Nickel - 2nd Quintet Miles

So no matter what changes show up on the bandstand, you'll be armed with some directions to go in. Of course transcribing lines from Miles, Herb, Shorter, Stitt, Trane, Coleman etc over those trouble spots

[magical pig]

How about learning the versionS from

Blue Haze - Miles in '54 I think the earliest version of Four.

Workin' - 1st Quintet Miles

Vanguard - Rollins

Four & More - Miles w George Coleman

Plugged Nickel - 2nd Quintet Miles

So no matter what changes show up on the bandstand, you'll be armed with some directions to go in. Of course transcribing lines from Miles, Herb, Shorter, Stitt, Trane, Coleman etc over those trouble spotsYeah, I guess that's what must be done. More shedding. I was actually after some witty tip to give me a shortcut, I guess it was foolish.

Victor.

[Mike Cesati]

Bar 5 is F-. Cool , I was always thinking in terms of Ab maj even though there is the relationship.
It's funny how I thought I knew this tune till today. Back to more shedding a little deeper on this one.
Glad we are working it out!

[Perry Cobb]

Wow...I apparently didn't have a clue on these changes!

[Kelly Bucheger]

Wow...I apparently didn't have a clue on these changes!
Hey PC, there ain't no shame in trying to be helpful! This is just one of those tunes that the Real Book messed up....

(The all-time biggest mess in the old Real Book was Blue Train. A crime against humanity...)

[magical pig]

Plugged Nickel - 2nd Quintet MilesShorter's amazing on that version... Damn.

Victor.

[Dragon]

Wait a minute!? What problems with Blue Train??? I never knew there were problems with Blue Train. Can you go into more detail, please? :?

[magical pig]

Wait a minute!? What problems with Blue Train??? I never knew there were problems with Blue Train. Can you go into more detail, please? :?What about wrong tonality, wrong chords as a start?

Victor.

[luncharm]

Bird blues is another common progression that uses these non-traditionally-resolving ii-V's. Giant Steps is another.

And you can approach them modally if you don't want (or are not yet able) to outline guide tones in the blink of an eye. Like in Four, you can be playing that Gmin7, let's say using a G dorian, then for the ii-V in E, you can play an F# dorian idea throughout, then move on down to the F dorian for the Fmin7 chord.

Joe Henderson played a lot of his changes modally.

[Dean Mongerio]

Hi all,

I'm trying to add this tune to my repertoire and I have a hard time playing through the II-Vs on bars 3 and 4, 7 and 8 and especially on bars 10 and 14 - the ones resolving a 1/2 step down. Playing through the II-Vs is not problematic, but resolving is.

If I'm not wrong, bars 3 & 4 and 7 & 8 resolve to Eb concert instead of Db and Gb respectively. The II-Vs on bars 10-14 (and 26) resolve unexpectedly to a half step down to Eb again.

How do you deal with those weird II-Vs?

So I guess I'll be the first to answer your question with something besides "go transcribe somebody" (which, of course, is good advice). :D

This goes along with my concept that I've mentioned before, but without going into depth on that (which would take quite some time) I'll give you the quick version. Keep in mind, this is just a starting point.

Treat bars 3, 4 and 5 as a ii-V-I in Dbmaj, with the Fmin7 essentially acting as a DbMaj7#11 (in the case of Fmin9). Fmin7 is the third of Db, and the chords share an F, Ab, C and Eb for starters. Make one of those notes your resolution point, then change gears back to the key of Eb.

Bars 7,8 and 9 can be treated as a minor 3rd substitution of a ii-V to EbMaj (think "Misty"), thinking of the Gmin7 as an EbMaj7, at least up to the resolution note in bar 9 (this is really just a glorified iv-I progression).

As far as bars 9, 10 and 11 go, this can be looked at a couple different ways. One way is to see it as a set of descending ii-V's. You already know this and a few people have already mentioned it, but this is how you actually play over it (as I mentioned before, this is just for starters):

If you looked at bar 9 as the first half of a 2 bar ii-V-I, it would put an Fmaj7 in bar 10. Play it like that, resolving your line from bar 9 to an 'A', 'F' or an 'E', and then pick up the line from that resolution note and continue the line with notes in the original chords (F#min7, B7). Repeat the same approach on bar 10 going to 11. Think of bar 10 as the first half of a 2 bar ii-V-I in EMaj, and in bar 11 resolve your line to either a 'G#', 'E' or 'D#'. Once you hit that resolution note, continue the line using notes appropriate for the Fmin7.

This approach also works very well in reverse, enabling one to be able to go outside and always sound convincing. But that's another post for another day. ;)

Hope some of that helps.

[magical pig]

Hi all,

I'm trying to add this tune to my repertoire and I have a hard time playing through the II-Vs on bars 3 and 4, 7 and 8 and especially on bars 10 and 14 - the ones resolving a 1/2 step down. Playing through the II-Vs is not problematic, but resolving is.

If I'm not wrong, bars 3 & 4 and 7 & 8 resolve to Eb concert instead of Db and Gb respectively. The II-Vs on bars 10-14 (and 26) resolve unexpectedly to a half step down to Eb again.

How do you deal with those weird II-Vs?

So I guess I'll be the first to answer your question with something besides "go transcribe somebody" (which, of course, is good advice). :D

This goes along with my concept that I've mentioned before, but without going into depth on that (which would take quite some time) I'll give you the quick version. Keep in mind, this is just a starting point.

Treat bars 3, 4 and 5 as a ii-V-I in Dbmaj, with the Fmin7 essentially acting as a DbMaj7#11 (in the case of Fmin9). Fmin7 is the third of Db, and the chords share an F, Ab, C and Eb for starters. Make one of those notes your resolution point, then change gears back to the key of Eb.

Bars 7,8 and 9 can be treated as a minor 3rd substitution of a ii-V to EbMaj (think "Misty"), thinking of the Gmin7 as an EbMaj7, at least up to the resolution note in bar 9 (this is really just a glorified iv-I progression).

As far as bars 9, 10 and 11 go, this can be looked at a couple different ways. One way is to see it as a set of descending ii-V's. You already know this and a few people have already mentioned it, but this is how you actually play over it (as I mentioned before, this is just for starters):

If you looked at bar 9 as the first half of a 2 bar ii-V-I, it would put an Fmaj7 in bar 10. Play it like that, resolving your line from bar 9 to an 'A', 'F' or an 'E', and then pick up the line from that resolution note and continue the line with notes in the original chords (F#min7, B7). Repeat the same approach on bar 10 going to 11. Think of bar 10 as the first half of a 2 bar ii-V-I in EMaj, and in bar 11 resolve your line to either a 'G#', 'E' or 'D#'. Once you hit that resolution note, continue the line using notes appropriate for the Fmin7.

This approach also works very well in reverse, enabling one to be able to go outside and always sound convincing. But that's another post for another day. ;)

Hope some of that helps.






YESSSS!!! That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Your explanation does indeed make a lot of sense but it requires some mental gymnastics as I have a strong tendency to just crash pathetically on the expected resolution points. I guess all I have to do now is shed 1. landing on shared notes in both tonalities 2. switch into the next tonality gear.

Guess I'm going to have to start slow.

Thanks a lot,
Victor.

[Dean Mongerio]

YESSSS!!! That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Your explanation does indeed make a lot of sense but it requires some mental gymnastics as I have a strong tendency to just crash pathetically on the expected resolution points. I guess all I have to do now is shed 1. landing on shared notes in both tonalities 2. switch into the next tonality gear.

Guess I'm going to have to start slow.

Thanks a lot,
Victor.

Cool. You've got the idea. The next small step would be to land on shared notes with different qualities (sharp, flat, natural). For example, going from bar 9 to bar 10, a simple line in eighth notes could be:

|G-7_/___/___/__| F#-7
|G A Bb C D F E D |C#

Here, the C# would be the shared note with a different quality, which could easily be a C natural in a regular ii-V-I.

After that, try utilizing surround tones. Here's the same line, but using the last note as the target of chromatic surround tones:

|G-7 _/___/__/__ | F#-7
|G A Bb C D F E D |D#

Using surround tones is a great way to change the tonality of a line, and every single modern player uses it to great effect (Brecker was all over this!). Here's a sample line using chromatic surround tones to get into and out of the section (all 1/8th notes):

|G-7_/___/___/__| F#-7_/___B7__/____|F-7___/____/__/__|
|G A Bb C D F E D |D# E C# A B A G# F# | G Ab C Eb G E F G | etc...


I mentioned a way to practice something like this in another thread. You can find it here:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=109111

[sonnymobleytrane]

YESSSS!!! That's the kind of thing I was looking for. Your explanation does indeed make a lot of sense but it requires some mental gymnastics as I have a strong tendency to just crash pathetically on the expected resolution points. I guess all I have to do now is shed 1. landing on shared notes in both tonalities 2. switch into the next tonality gear.

Guess I'm going to have to start slow.

Thanks a lot,
Victor.

Cool. You've got the idea. The next small step would be to land on shared notes with different qualities (sharp, flat, natural). For example, going from bar 9 to bar 10, a simple line in eighth notes could be:

|G-7_/___/___/__| F#-7
|G A Bb C D F E D |C#

Here, the C# would be the shared note with a different quality, which could easily be a C natural in a regular ii-V-I.

After that, try utilizing surround tones. Here's the same line, but using the last note as the target of chromatic surround tones:

|G-7 _/___/__/__ | F#-7
|G A Bb C D F E D |D#

Using surround tones is a great way to change the tonality of a line, and every single modern player uses it to great effect (Brecker was all over this!). Here's a sample line using chromatic surround tones to get into and out of the section (all 1/8th notes):

|G-7_/___/___/__| F#-7_/___B7__/____|F-7___/____/__/__|
|G A Bb C D F E D |D# E C# A B A G# F# | G Ab C Eb G E F G | etc...


I mentioned a way to practice something like this in another thread. You can find it here:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=109111

Dean Once again a very good post.

[Kelly Bucheger]

Dean Once again a very good post.
Yeah. What HE said. Good stuff, Dean, you're on a roll...

[magical pig]

Cool. You've got the idea. The next small step would be to land on shared notes with different qualities (sharp, flat, natural). For example, going from bar 9 to bar 10, a simple line in eighth notes could be:

|G-7_/___/___/__| F#-7
|G A Bb C D F E D |C#

Here, the C# would be the shared note with a different quality, which could easily be a C natural in a regular ii-V-I.

After that, try utilizing surround tones. Here's the same line, but using the last note as the target of chromatic surround tones:

|G-7 _/___/__/__ | F#-7
|G A Bb C D F E D |D#

Using surround tones is a great way to change the tonality of a line, and every single modern player uses it to great effect (Brecker was all over this!). Here's a sample line using chromatic surround tones to get into and out of the section (all 1/8th notes):

|G-7_/___/___/__| F#-7_/___B7__/____|F-7___/____/__/__|
|G A Bb C D F E D |D# E C# A B A G# F# | G Ab C Eb G E F G | etc...


I mentioned a way to practice something like this in another thread. You can find it here:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?t=109111Dean, that's a few years worth of practicing here. :D

I guess you're referring to this post (http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=1104632&postcount=10) for the way to practice it, right? I understand the concept and what you're getting at with this way of internalizing licks and patterns but it seems to me like it is actually more work admittedly for a better control on those ideas. Maybe it is just like it "seems" like more work. I'm sure it will be less boring than practicing licks and patterns by themselves, with no perspective to put them in and as a consequence it will keep my mind more open to remembering this stuff.

Thanks a lot again,
Victor.

[Dean Mongerio]

Dean, that's a few years worth of practicing here. :D

I guess you're referring to this post (http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showpost.php?p=1104632&postcount=10) for the way to practice it, right? I understand the concept and what you're getting at with this way of internalizing licks and patterns but it seems to me like it is actually more work admittedly for a better control on those ideas. Maybe it is just like it "seems" like more work. I'm sure it will be less boring than practicing licks and patterns by themselves, with no perspective to put them in and as a consequence it will keep my mind more open to remembering this stuff.

Thanks a lot again,
Victor.

Yep, that's the one. When it's written out it seems like a lot, but it really ends up saving a lot of time in the end since more actually gets internalized. And in reality, you won't really use every lick in every key anyway. For me, sometimes things don't sound right or feel very good in another register or in a different part of the horn, so I'll scrap it in those instances.

Plus, since you're not actually thinking about the line you're trying to learn, not only do you learn it that much faster, but you also get very comfortable playing lines from different tonalities and landing on the note the lick starts on--say an "A". Since "A" is the Maj3rd of "F", the min3rd of "Gb", the 5th of "D", the b7th of "B", etc, you can pivot anywhere you want. And since the lines have direction and resolutions built in, this method is a very simple way to start thinking like an inside/outside player (to use Bunky's nomenclature) and not be bound by the stated harmony only. There's more to my concept than that, but it's a good start.

The great part about shedding things that way is that you get better at playing everything. You'll start to recognize common tones, common tones with different qualities (at least that's my term for them), surround tone opportunities, etc everywhere in tunes. Add that to being comfortable with resolution notes, and you've got yourself a hell of a good player!