Buescher 400. Best years?

[NissanVintageSax]

I used search. Just pulled up gibberish unrelated to topic. (typed in Buescher 400)

Anyway, I was curious what years the 400 ran, and when they became less desireable. I found one that has the bell keys on the inside of the bell, no cages, w/nickel keywork. Is this worth buying? If it was sold as an Intermediate model, I'm fine with that, but if it was sold as a Student Model, I won't bother. Never really fell in love w/my post Selmer Buescher Aritocrat (aka re-badged Bundy). But, this has a look to that isn't cheap, and appears to be pre-Selmer.

Serial #36XXXX

[Dr G]

From Steve Goodson's SaxGourmet.com Vintage Saxophone Value Guide:

"400 SERIES 291XXX – 381XXX
These are the Top Hat and Cane horns, the best of the Bueschers. They will always have a raised silver logo on the bell; brown rollers; a silver resonance ring under the bell rim; snap in pads and Norton springs, and an underslung octave key. There are a few silver (add 20%) plated ones, and a very few (add 30%) gold ones. I’ve seen some 400 baris, but none with top hat and cane engraving or other distinctive features of this series. I think these horns are undervalued.

Alto $ 2300
Tenor $ 3500"

If it's a screamin' deal and you don't like it, please let me know. There's a finder's fee in it for you.

[NissanVintageSax]

Well, there's no underslung octave on this one, no engraving except "Buescher" the length of the bell, and "400" on the front of the bell. It does have the brown rollers, no raised silver logo on the bell far as I can tell (maybe it came off?). Sax is missing 95% of it's lacquer. Seems to be well within the serial number range though :) .

[SuperAction80]

Anyway, I was curious what years the 400 ran, and when they became less desireable. I found one that has the bell keys on the inside of the bell, no cages, w/nickel keywork. Is this worth buying? If it was sold as an Intermediate model, I'm fine with that, but if it was sold as a Student Model, I won't bother. Never really fell in love w/my post Selmer Buescher Aritocrat (aka re-badged Bundy). But, this has a look to that isn't cheap, and appears to be pre-Selmer.

Serial #36XXXX

Are we talking alto or tenor?

This horn was made in approx 1960. A friend of mine has one of these 400 tenors , and I've been trying to buy it off of him for years. The low end is the most perfect I've ever played on a tenor, very free blowing and smooth. It is easy to get either whispering subtones or booming bell tones, which makes the horn equally comfortable in ballads or funk. These also have a very even scale with good intonation. They are a bit on the heavy side, and they do not have any of the fancier frills of the older 400s, less the odd bell key position. All in all, great horns if you can find someone who wants to part with them.

Keep in mind that I'm refering to the tenors as I have not tried the alto version.

{Edit} IMO, the 400 lost its magic whenever the bell keys were moved to the side. The aformentioned 400 is not as desirable as the older horns, probably due to the fact they they look a little more "stamped out" as opposed to their predecessors. This series will hold its own against, and will often perform better than, the older 400s.

[NissanVintageSax]

Sorry, yes it is a Tenor.

[Carl H.]

So, where is it?

[NissanVintageSax]

My little secret :) .

[Carl H.]

So whose basement window have you loosened? and do they have a C clarinet?

[SuperAction80]

Sorry, yes it is a Tenor.

If the price is right, and if the horn is in sound mechanical condition, you will not be disappointed with it.

[NissanVintageSax]

It does need a rebuild. Pads are pretty shoddy, and the octave rod on the stack is slightly bent.

[Dr G]

Well, there's no underslung octave on this one, no engraving except "Buescher" the length of the bell, and "400" on the front of the bell. It does have the brown rollers, no raised silver logo on the bell far as I can tell (maybe it came off?). Sax is missing 95% of it's lacquer. Seems to be well within the serial number range though :) .

I'm guessing that it does not have the "tone ring" on the underside of the bell lip?

[NissanVintageSax]

No tonering.

[NissanVintageSax]

So, where is it?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=370173122766

Can't keep it a secret :) . The guy took pretty good pictures of it. That's how I was able to give such a decent descript :) .

[SuperAction80]

Yeah, I'd say that it needs an overhaul. So add another $600 to $700 to the bottom line. Still though, when in good condition, I would compare these to any "pro" horn on the market today.

One word of caution though, if you do put in the money for an overhaul and decide that the horn isn't for you, I highly doubt that you would be able to resell the horn and come out even. It's a shame really, but these usually do not sell for that much.

[jicaino]

S25 buescher, up to 1200 freshly overhauled, more like $5 to $7 hundred "found in the wild". They're a little more "spread" and lesd spowerful than super 400 (underslung rear bell keys, basically THC's with nickel plated keywork) or 400' THC.

[jicaino]

warning, relacquer is not out of the question here.

[AG]

I have one, the S-25 model, same horn but in much better shape, orig light gold lacquer with the nickle silver keys. it has the snapins & gold Norton springs. it's the last of the pre-Selmer 400's, the model right after the Super 400 with the back bell keys but no tone ring. big bell flare & it's a heavy horn. I pd $726 for mine with new pads. plays & sounds good and is considered a pro horn, but it's not Top Hat & Cane quality. still it's a good horn for the money.

I mainly play alto on a mint early Mark VII, but I wanted a decent tenor for a decent price knowing I wouldn't play it that much so I didn't want to invest a lot of money. I would have liked one of the earlier & better Bueschers, but for a horn you aren't going to play much I couldn't justify the expense. the 400 fit the bill. my back up alto though is a Buescher 140 in very, very good condition....almost mint except for some lacquer wear on the bell from someone's hand and pretty much a Big B except for the engraving.

[NissanVintageSax]

Well, thank you. Because of your help, I only set my top dollar at $300. It wound up going for just over $400! That's how I like to shop e-bay :) . At least come out even :) . And with your help, I was able to set a bid to the high end of the low spectrum. It's someone else's axle now :) .

[super20dan]

there are no bad 400,s. i have a pair of late ones that would blow your mind and they are from around 1975

[jicaino]

I have one 66xxxx that's really amazing. Looks cheap, smells ugly, has dents, yet, the only thing taht can put that baby to shame is my THC tenor.

[DavidW]

I have a 1963 tenor that plays very well. It has original lacquer, nickel keys and the original case. Other than a few dents and some lacquer wear (weird pink looking wear), it is a nice sax, with a huge sound. Mine has the rear B and Bb keys and no underslung neck.

[jbjazzman]

[QUOTE=Dr G;1097611]From Steve Goodson's SaxGourmet.com Vintage Saxophone Value Guide:

"400 SERIES 291XXX – 381XXX
These are the Top Hat and Cane horns, the best of the Bueschers. They will always have a raised silver logo on the bell; brown rollers; a silver resonance ring under the bell rim; snap in pads and Norton springs, and an underslung octave key. QUOTE]


The actual TH & C disappears somewhere between 354K
and 359K, Dr. G. I have a silver 354K tenor with all the features
and a 359K "Super 400" tenor that has all the mechanical features
but no engraving other that "Super 400" running vertically up the
bell much like the 400 bari engraving. The 381K is pretty much the
endpoint of Buescher built horns when Selmer purchased the company.

[Enviroguy]

Buescher 400. Best years?

Take your pick:



I pick mine. ;)

[michaelbaird]

I always look for the ribbon key guards as well. I've heard that makes them alittle more special too....I've got a 400 bari, pre Selmer that is a good horn inspite of the Lt hand pinky cluster...It barks like a dog!

[saxdan]

Does an alto from 1975 still play and sound like a 400 should? I'm debating on buying one since they seem like good deals. Do they retain the Norton springs and the snap ins?

[AG]

my 400 tenor is a later one, 371XXX S-25 with the back bell keys, ribbon key guards, nickle silver keys, no tone ring, but it does still have the gold Norton springs & snap in pads.....overhead octve mechanism. plays & sounds quite good, but I have no idea what year it is.

I doubt the alto you speak of is anything too much like the old Buescher 400's, and it would not at that late date still have the gold Nortons & snap ins; still it may be a decent horn though.

[jicaino]

400 retained the snaps for the longest time after selmer buyout. Sometime around 500k they loose the nortons. No norton springs aren't "bad news" necesarily... today obtaining a good replacement is almost impossible, you have to canvas ebay or other sources for OEM springs, they can get quite pricey, or source badly beatup parts horns for this thing.

Define "good deal"... up untill mid 600k they are great horns still.

[saxdan]

400 retained the snaps for the longest time after selmer buyout. Sometime around 500k they loose the nortons. No norton springs aren't "bad news" necesarily... today obtaining a good replacement is almost impossible, you have to canvas ebay or other sources for OEM springs, they can get quite pricey, or source badly beatup parts horns for this thing.

Define "good deal"... up untill mid 600k they are great horns still.

I paid $355 for it. It is in mint condition.

[michaelbaird]

my 400 tenor is a later one, 371XXX S-25 with the back bell keys, ribbon key guards, nickle silver keys, no tone ring, but it does still have the gold Norton springs & snap in pads.....overhead octve mechanism. plays & sounds quite good, but I have no idea what year it is.

I plan on eventually adding one of these to my collection.

[jicaino]

helluva deal saxdan. enjoy it!

[saxdan]

Right now there is a THC on E-Bay. It has no raised logo and has the
top hat and cane. Is there a point were some THC horns had no raised logo?

[jicaino]

early tenors didn't have the raised logo. It's straight cut engraved with the same font.

[super20dan]

yes the late 400,s play and sound like a 400 shouls and are a great bargin too. you wont be dissapointed

[saxdan]

Right now there is a THC on E-Bay. It has no raised logo and has the
top hat and cane. Is there a point were some THC horns had no raised logo?

This is a THC alto, ser.#371776. No raised logo. It is mid 50's. How do these sound? I guess Steve Goodson is wrong in stating that all THC horns have a raised logo.

[jicaino]

I have never seen an alto withot raised logo. THis one from ebay looks 100% legit and it's not a buffing removing the raised logo - engraving over the solder marks deal. It looks like the real deal to me. Early tenors that I commented before have another type of cut on the Buescher 400 logo (more like early trumpets, straight cut with half round graver, very classy and difficult to execute)

[saxdan]

Actually, after some investigating The Vintage Saxophone Gallery shows a picture of one without the raised logo. I assume it is an original horn. I am just worried about the sound. I assume it will sound like an earlier vintage horn.

[jicaino]

It will do anything you want, it will take you anywhere you can go, it will be as good as you can be on a real saxophone. Ask Kelly Bucheger! ;)