Swap a Ref 36 for a Borgani Jubilee

[AlistairD]

Hi,

Long time no post.... but I am about to re-start playing after a 2 year virtual layoff...

I've got a really nice Ref 36 but for some reason (call me mad if you want) I am tempted to swap it for a Borg Jubilee. I've seen a couple advertised which look interesting e.g. the Lovano Model.

It's been a few years since I tried one and wondered if anyone had any advice about what to look out for in a 2nd hand (or possibly new) Borgani. As I think they are still mainly hand made and from memory all sound different, do they make any 'duffers' or are the all pretty damn good?

[Dr G]

Alistair!

I am on my second Borgani Jubilee - this one is silverplate and I'm still lovin' it.

There is a member that recently bought a second hand silver pearl Jubilee that is having finish problems - I haven't heard the resolution so consider it a "head's up".

Set up is a potential issue. I got lucky and bought my current horn from a compulsive player that tricked it out. He ordered the horn without pads or springs and had it built to his specifications. I "heard" - don't know if it is still true - that the factory pad jobs are spotty.

All that aside, if your Ref 36 is a good one, you are already There.

All the best to you and yours.

[AlistairD]

George,

Thanks for the quick reply. I know I'm mad... and hopefully will recover in time, just wanted some thoughts....

[crazydaisydoo]

Alastair, you are only a few miles from Allegro, why not take your Reference and have a A/B test? I must say I love the finish and feel of the Borgani's, but personally I found them very hard work to play, and the Reference is not exactly free-blowing (but they do vary)

I think Dr G has owned both of these horns, and I remember reading some positive remarks about the Reference 36 from him before I got mine.

I think both these horns are very set-up sensitive. On that basis, I would say try the specific horn before making any commitment

I spoke to Roger at allegro on the phone just after Christmas, and he has plenty of Borgs in stock, but few Selmers, so he might be interested in cutting a deal. His price for a brand new Jubilee is around £2800, whereas a Reference 36 is £3800, so I think you would have to think long and hard about it

Personally, I'd keep the 36, maybe spend some money on getting it fettled, they are lovely horns

[Dr G]

+1 'doo. Good calls all 'round.

Regarding your comment of "hard to play", what was the issue?

Thinking about the two, I believe the Ref 36 slots a lil' better, the Jubilee is a bit more flexible. Both, in my experience (recall that both of my were custom setups) are excellent horns and most rewarding to play.

:borg:

[AlistairD]

Alastair, you are only a few miles from Allegro, why not take your Reference and have a A/B test? I must say I love the finish and feel of the Borgani's, but personally I found them very hard work to play, and the Reference is not exactly free-blowing (but they do vary)

I think Dr G has owned both of these horns, and I remember reading some positive remarks about the Reference 36 from him before I got mine.

I think both these horns are very set-up sensitive. On that basis, I would say try the specific horn before making any commitment

I spoke to Roger at allegro on the phone just after Christmas, and he has plenty of Borgs in stock, but few Selmers, so he might be interested in cutting a deal. His price for a brand new Jubilee is around £2800, whereas a Reference 36 is £3800, so I think you would have to think long and hard about it

Personally, I'd keep the 36, maybe spend some money on getting it fettled, they are lovely horns

I first tried Borgs at Allegro and he has a Lovano Tenor s/h there at the moment, hence my temptation...

Thanks for the input and I'll let you know if I come to my senses.

[josephmd]

I picked up a silverplated Borgani on ebay for a good price and had Randy Jones set it up. It's a player. The ebay price was very good so even with the setup cost it was a real bargain.

[ManEast]

Hi to You Allistair

You have to ask yourself......why is it back in the shop ? I have a Borg tenor that i would not let go for any amount of money. But, i had a student that got one on the strength of me loving mine...he got a S/H Jubilee.(from Allegro) and it Suck's.( It's always good to take someone with you to see what they think of it ! !) Every one of them is so very Diff.
If mine was to disappear , i would sit outside the factory until they made one as good....& i would not give a monkey's what colour it was.
Also the factory set-up is not good, inc stuff like tone hole's. So if you find one that SING'S***** if you take it to a very good Sax tech
(Steve Howard did my one) to Finish it. will blow you mind after. I am in the south of the U.K so if you ever want to give me a call and talk about it in more depth do p.m me.

N.B my one has no High f# & old type u bend .

Regards ManEast

P.S Love Mr G Coleman

[AlistairD]

Hi to You Allistair

You have to ask yourself......why is it back in the shop ? I have a Borg tenor that i would not let go for any amount of money. But, i had a student that got one on the strength of me loving mine...he got a S/H Jubilee.(from Allegro) and it Suck's.( It's always good to take someone with you to see what they think of it ! !) Every one of them is so very Diff.
If mine was to disappear , i would sit outside the factory until they made one as good....& i would not give a monkey's what colour it was.
Also the factory set-up is not good, inc stuff like tone hole's. So if you find one that SING'S***** if you take it to a very good Sax tech
(Steve Howard did my one) to Finish it. will blow you mind after. I am in the south of the U.K so if you ever want to give me a call and talk about it in more depth do p.m me.

N.B my one has no High f# & old type u bend .

Regards ManEast

P.S Love Mr G Coleman

Hi ManEast....

Thanks for the advice. I took my teacher with me when I got my Ref 36 and we tried a number of 54s the 36, and a number of other makes and both agreed the 36 was much better than any of the others. Before I got the 36 I tried some Borganis at Allegros and they were all different.

With the advice here... I am re-thinking about swapping and may well just stick to the 36 and take more lessons instead!!!

P.S. GC is one of my favorites...

[ManEast]

Hi to You Allistair

You have to ask yourself......why is it back in the shop ? I have a Borg tenor that i would not let go for any amount of money. But, i had a student that got one on the strength of me loving mine...he got a S/H Jubilee.(from Allegro) and it Suck's.( It's always good to take someone with you to see what they think of it ! !) Every one of them is so very Diff.
If mine was to disappear , i would sit outside the factory until they made one as good....& i would not give a monkey's what colour it was.
Also the factory set-up is not good, inc stuff like tone hole's. So if you find one that SING'S***** if you take it to a very good Sax tech
(Steve Howard did my one) to Finish it. will blow you mind after. I am in the south of the U.K so if you ever want to give me a call and talk about it in more depth do p.m me.

N.B my one has no High f# & old type u bend .

Regards ManEast

P.S Love Mr G Coleman

Hi ManEast....

Thanks for the advice. I took my teacher with me when I got my Ref 36 and we tried a number of 54s the 36, and a number of other makes and both agreed the 36 was much better than any of the others. Before I got the 36 I tried some Borganis at Allegros and they were all different.

With the advice here... I am re-thinking about swapping and may well just stick to the 36 and take more lessons instead!!!

P.S. GC is one of my favorites...


Hi Alistair
More Lessons....and more George Coleman. What a fantastic idea.
You have already got a hole load of top quailty hardware!

The only time to move is when you find something you just can't live without.

Play on
ManEast

[clarnibass]

The Lovano model is the one with matte silver body and lacquered keys right? I have no idea if the finishes are the only difference between the models (not including usual differences between same model), but that's one of those I tried (tenor). Also tried a silver plated tenor and the Vintage tenor. Also a 24K soprano.

I'd say they are great if you like them, but they are unique enough that some people might not like them. I didn't really like the tenors, but I have to agree with others that the factory setup wasn't especially good (but not awful either, about average, excluding Japanese makers). They played in a specific way that I can understand why some people will definitely like them, maybe better than anything else.

The soprano was one of the best I've tried, but very heavy (I don't remember the tenors being so heavy compared with others). It also had a serious design flaw, the low C# key to lever linkage, which required completely modifying to make the key feel good and the pad to close reliably with a reasonable spring tension. I didn't have time to examine the tenors thoroughly enough to check to that detail.
You can read about this flaw here http://www.nitailevi.com/reviews/sop_sax/borgani/borgani_sop24k.htm For English you can translate the website with Google Language Tools http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en

I'd take your Selmer and compare it side by side with the Borganis if you can. It's a bit risky otherwise. In my country I think Borgani is the first unique small maker available, so for some people it's a little too easy to be "blinded" by that.

[Dave C]

I've hesitated for several days before posting because I'm aware that everyone's experience is their own and I try to avoid making inflammatory statements.

Having got that out of the way; my experience of Allegro is that he pushes the Borgani horns very aggressively. Most of the other manufacturers are rubbished, particularly the Selmer Ref 54 and the Ref 36.

Much is made of how many of his customers have traded their VI for a Borgani but little objective comment is made regarding the alternatives.

The proprietor has been described on this site as 'entertaining' but thats not the word I would use.

If I want an objective opinion it's worth making the trip to Dawkes at Maidenhead, but of course they don't stock the Borgani!

I'm not saying the Borgani's are bad horns, just that you don't get a very balanced perspective at that particular store.

[crazydaisydoo]

I've hesitated for several days before posting because I'm aware that everyone's experience is their own and I try to avoid making inflammatory statements.

Having got that out of the way; my experience of Allegro is that he pushes the Borgani horns very aggressively. Most of the other manufacturers are rubbished, particularly the Selmer Ref 54 and the Ref 36.

Much is made of how many of his customers have traded their VI for a Borgani but little objective comment is made regarding the alternatives.

The proprietor has been described on this site as 'entertaining' but thats not the word I would use.

If I want an objective opinion it's worth making the trip to Dawkes at Maidenhead, but of course they don't stock the Borgani!

I'm not saying the Borgani's are bad horns, just that you don't get a very balanced perspective at that particular store.

Hi Dave, entertaining indeed. I am very easy to sell to, you don't even need to try hard, I can convince myself of anything. It is the first time in my life I have ever driven 100 miles with £2500 in my pocket and driven home with nothing. I think that speaks volumes (unlike those particular horns)

[Dave C]

Hi Matt,

Yes, an interesting business model;

Run down most of your customers behind their backs and run down all products except one.

[ManEast]

Hi All

I feel we may be a tadd too hard on the guys at Allegro and on Borgani.
They are very "English excentric" and very commited to Borgani above all others.....but when you are only one of about 5 dealerships world wide i think you would have to be. Allegro have been with us for a long time and i have never taken offence at there approch, but i can see why others maybe would do.

As for Borgani, at sometime in the 90's they came up with a desgin for a Tenor sax that is (for me) the most exciting sax since the loss of the MK6.
And just like the MK 6 Hand Built (so....some good some not so good)

Now .... i do not want to down Selmer but the Ref horns (for me) have far far more in common with the Selmer super Action 80 series 2 generation horns then they have with any S.B.A or Mk6.

The unfortunate thing that has happend to Borgani is that they have fallen fowl of the same old thing that all manufacures do . they feel they have to keep adding crap to the horn to keep up with everyone else. Double arm key work . Mini gold nugget alt front F and reinforcing the left hand pinky cluster when the original worked just fine.... as long as you are not an orangutan.

In the 90's Borgani were thinking out-side of the box, now they just want to run with the pack.......prob to there financial gain but pos to our creative loss.

I would say the same thing about buying a Borgani as i would do about buying a MK6. Try lots of them before you buy. but dont ,not try them.

Regards

ManEast

[Dave C]

ManEast,

As I said in my earlier post I'm not saying Borgani's are bad horns. I believe in each to his own.

Equally, I can accept that if a retailer is the sole distributor (or one of a very small number) for a particular manufacturer than you would expect that distributor to be very enthusiastic regarding the manufacturers products.

But as far as I'm concerned that doesn't extend to saying that almost everyone else's product is rubbish. Nor does it extend to making very derogatory comments about other customers as soon as they leave the store.

That's what I witnessed, and it made me wonder what he would say about me when I left. In fact, I didn't need to wonder for very long because I overheard him running me down during a phone conversation whilst I was play testing some horns.


I believe in supporting local businesses, but I won't be returning to Allegro in a hurry.

But that's just my experience. Yours might vary.......

[ManEast]

ManEast,

As I said in my earlier post I'm not saying Borgani's are bad horns. I believe in each to his own.

Equally, I can accept that if a retailer is the sole distributor (or one of a very small number) for a particular manufacturer than you would expect that distributor to be very enthusiastic regarding the manufacturers products.

But as far as I'm concerned that doesn't extend to saying that almost everyone else's product is rubbish. Nor does it extend to making very derogatory comments about other customers as soon as they leave the store.

That's what I witnessed, and it made me wonder what he would say about me when I left. In fact, I didn't need to wonder for very long because I overheard him running me down during a phone conversation whilst I was play testing some horns.


I believe in supporting local businesses, but I won't be returning to Allegro in a hurry.

But that's just my experience. Yours might vary.......

Hi Dave c
I totaly understand what you say.... I have no time for what is just plain bad manners on the part of that shop .:?

[Dr G]

People aside, both the Jubilees and the Ref 36 have the capacity (basic design) to be great horns.

Sorry to try to put this thread back on track but I've owned excellent examples of each horn (those and a couple dozen other tenors over the last 35+ years of playing).

[Dave C]

Dr G,

You are right about getting the post back on track. The original purpose of my comments was just to make the point that this is the kind of store where every effort is made to push people towards Borgs, rather than them acknowledging the point you have made; They are both very good horns.

But I'm sure the OP is more than capable of making his own mind up............

[Dr G]

But I'm sure the OP is more than capable of making his own mind up............

I don't know, he did come here looking for advice. ;)

[AlistairD]

I did indeed come for advice and even though the thread had morphed into a discussion around a particular vendor (no surprise as he is the only Borgani one in the UK), the thread has probably served it's purpose. Thre were no really strong views about the Reference 36 vs Borgani's so it's really personal preferences.

I spent time choosing my Reference 36 and received good advice from my teacher who helped to select the sax and I have since tried a number of mouthpieces to settle on the Lebayles and when I was playing regularly I was complemted on my tone (more so than my playing I might add!!!)

I am not going to swap in the near future and will instead invest in some more lessons and re-develop my tone.

Thanks all for the contributions!

[Dr G]

I'm just happy to hear that you've returned to worship at the temple of the tenor.

Welcome back!

[AlistairD]

I'm just happy to hear that you've returned to worship at the temple of the tenor.

Welcome back!

And I just hope that annoying sideline called 'work :evil:' allows me to continue this time.... [Impnt]

[Dr G]

And I just hope that annoying sideline called 'work :evil:' allows me to continue this time.... [Impnt]

I feel your pain. Best wishes for continuing progress, success, and satisfaction.

[Mike24]

Hi to You Allistair

You have to ask yourself......why is it back in the shop ? I have a Borg tenor that i would not let go for any amount of money. But, i had a student that got one on the strength of me loving mine...he got a S/H Jubilee.(from Allegro) and it Suck's.( It's always good to take someone with you to see what they think of it ! !) Every one of them is so very Diff.
If mine was to disappear , i would sit outside the factory until they made one as good....& i would not give a monkey's what colour it was.
Also the factory set-up is not good, inc stuff like tone hole's. So if you find one that SING'S***** if you take it to a very good Sax tech
(Steve Howard did my one) to Finish it. will blow you mind after. I am in the south of the U.K so if you ever want to give me a call and talk about it in more depth do p.m me.

N.B my one has no High f# & old type u bend .

Regards ManEast

P.S Love Mr G Coleman

I was in Allegro when that particular Joe Lovano came in. Belonged to a pro player who brought a six instead. Seemed to me like he was being pushed into it by his mate and didn't really seem to know whether he wanted the Mk6 or the Borgani. I'm more of a Selmer fan myself but even I would have to admit that he sounded better on the Joe Lovano than he did on the Selmer that he eventually brought. I did have a go on it after he left and I thought that it was much better than the new Joe Lovano they had in stock. Still, I sold my Borgani to buy a reference 54 (alto) so I guess I'd stick with the one you've got in your situation.

[ManEast]

[/QUOTE]

I was in Allegro when that particular Joe Lovano came in. Belonged to a pro player who brought a six instead. Seemed to me like he was being pushed into it by his mate and didn't really seem to know whether he wanted the Mk6 or the Borgani. I'm more of a Selmer fan myself but even I would have to admit that he sounded better on the Joe Lovano than he did on the Selmer that he eventually brought. I did have a go on it after he left and I thought that it was much better than the new Joe Lovano they had in stock. Still, I sold my Borgani to buy a reference 54 (alto) so I guess I'd stick with the one you've got in your situation.[/QUOTE]

Hi to you
I am also a fan of old school Selmer. I have had 4...a MK6 Tenor,Mk6 Alto,a Mk7 Alto,and a B.A Alto. Apart from the B.A... For me they were just not Keeper's.
Mind you i have never ever played a Borgani Alto that i would Buy.
:?
Regards

ManEast

[clarnibass]

I recently tried a few tenors, and most were much better than the tenors I've tried before, with a couple especially good! I hope I'm not confusing with another company, but if I remember right one (or more) of the tenors was really light which was very nice. They were definitely tenors I would consider if I was looking to buy a tenor. They were relaly some of my favorites.