Why do people say these things?

[Walter Webb]

This is about the statements I read and hear from some rather prominent players, collectors, web site operators and repair persons: Holtons suck! They are really only good, even the best of them, for hanging on the wall or making lamps out of, because they are tinny-thin sounding, weirdly keyed, poorly built, impossible to regulate, cheesy plated, have questionable intonation, etc etc.

If you have not read the "expert" blurbs, you might want to read the history of Holton on Saxpics.com, and an interview here on SOTW with a famous guy in New Orleans.

I considered not bringing this up to the general public for fear that the word might get out that Holtons can be very good, desirable or collectible, but then it dawned on me that the handful people who will actually read this are not the general public. There no danger whatsoever of having Holton saxes become the next rave, with escalating prices everywhere. As I write this, there are several clean New Revelation altos sitting on eBay for days at way under a hundred bucks. C melody aficionados seem far more hip, with more real awareness and ability to compare and choose.

So, what's up with all that? This post is already way too long, so I wont expound further of my own experience and small collection until others do.
Cheers, Walter of Nevada City, CA

[BlueTrane2028]

A friend of mine has had (in the last two years) a Mark VI, a Ref. 54, a Couesnon, a later Buescher 400, and has finally settled on a Holton which model number I am unsure of. Bell keys are both on the left side.

It is the best playing of the five tenors he's had. I've played them all.

Some of the Holtons I've come across that appear to not be so great are primarily altos, the ones that have a "microtuner" in the neck. It makes the neck partially cylindrical in bore, and it just seems to mess things up. Conn was able to successfully make a tuner, Holton, not so much. Of course with anything, YMMV.

[goodsax]

My first alto was a Holton Collegiate. I got it as a birthday present in 1949, my 8th birthday. I played that horn throughout high school in concert and marching bands, an R&B group and a swing band sextet, and on into my first couple of years in the US Navy. It was a solid player all those years (about 10) and never let me down.

[musicwriter2001]

I have 4 holtons, 1 tenor, 2 altos and a bari all in silver and they play great, my old tenor from 1902-1905 is heavy, big bell, sounds great, plays just fine. i did not pay over 400 for any of them on ebay. just brand snobbery, "if it doesnt say ________, its not a real saxophone". Better for me because they arent in very high demand.

[LaPorte]

... my old tenor from 1902-1905 is heavy, big bell, sounds great, plays just fine. ...

1. Would you please tell us the serial number?
2. Is it marked 'Chicago' or 'Elkhorn'?
3. Spatula front 'F' existing?

Thank you.

Felix

[Walter Webb]

Well I'll be dipped in sheep disinfectant! One of the Holton altos I mentioned , ser#12573 has sold for $356. It was a garden variety mid 20's silver plate, pretty clean, with a couple of small dents, but had no hi F spatula. Usually they go for half of that, or less. Perhaps the plethora of excellent pictures helped make the sale take off. eBay# 140304100673

I am currently enjoying a Rudy Alto, ser #36975 (Felix, what year is that?) which came from eBay for $149. It cleaned up nicely and plays well after 4 new pads, a few bends with the duckbill pliers and a lot of cork replacing. My repairman-friend is doing a lot of sitting around these days, watching the rain and snow fall, and helped me out quite a bit. The key holes are reputed to be silver soldered, and they certainly are thick, which gives lots of pad contact area. Sitting with a sweep hand/digital tuner, intonation is in the ballpark, not perfect, or Yamaha-like, but very manageable. It wants to go flat in the upper range with a soft reed and/or mild mouthpiece, and responds well to my Selmer Jazz E metal, without losing the ability to play softly in the low range. The action feels good for the era in which it was made. Nice to have articulated G#/B,Bb,C#.

Walter

My other horns are King SilverSonic tenor, Conn C mel, Yamaha YAS61, Courtier/Lyon & Healy C mel, Yamaha YBS62, '26 Holton alto, and possibly a French Vito soon...

[LaPorte]

I am currently enjoying a Rudy Alto, ser #36975 (Felix, what year is that?) ...

Early 1930, the first year of the depression.

What SN is stamped on your Lyon&Healy C-melody? Is it marked 'Couturier Model'?

Felix

[jazzbug1]

I have collected, restored, and played saxophones professionally for over 40 years. I own everything from a C soprano down to a bass sax. The only non-Holtons I play are a Conn bass (Holton sold Conn basses with the Holton name stenciled on them), a Conn curved Bb soprano (Holton never made one), and a Conn "Chu Berry" baritone. I have played all makes and types of pre-1935 saxophones, and have found the Holtons to play consistantly well, fit the hand, and offer superior workmanship to many. I have only noticed some poor plating in the #10,000-12,00 range in what was probably a bad run in the plating shop. The Wiedoefts (my favorite) have a richer sound, probably due to that little "breather" key on the low C. I owned a Holton baritone from the mid 20s, but found the Conn to be richer and more subtle, and the Holton neck octave key was a poor design. Who can argue with Gerry Mulligan, who played vintage Conns. I would love to find a Wiedoeft baritone to compare, but I have only seen one that was on EBay, without a neck. It sold for $400-500.00 and it was GOLD. (should have grabbed it). The Holtons I have owned all have a bright top end, which few horns of the era have. This top end enables me to play an edgy sound for more of a modern approach to jazz when needed. However, I prefer the proper vintage tone as taught to me by Marvin Kamm, a student of Wiedoeft. My guess is the players who knock Holton never played one and are just repeating what they have heard. I can't imagine how the rumor started, other than the top players rarely played Holton, as Buescher, Conn, and Martin were very aggressive in promoting their horns, and often equipped entire bands with them. The reed section of Paul Whiteman's orchestra was given Holtons in the early 1930s, but by that time, the Whiteman band was no longer at the peak of popularity. Frankie Trumbauer played a Holton in the later 1920s, when he made his legendary recordings. He must have had a good reason to choose Holton. Another long ramble from the Bug.

[goodsax]

Very interesting stuff, bug. Thanks for sharing.

Maybe there should be a Holton fan forum?

[LaPorte]

Well I'll be dipped in sheep disinfectant! One of the Holton altos I mentioned , ser#12573 has sold for $356. It was a garden variety mid 20's silver plate, pretty clean, with a couple of small dents, but had no hi F spatula. Usually they go for half of that, or less. Perhaps the plethora of excellent pictures helped make the sale take off. eBay# 140304100673
... and bent neck!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140304100673&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004

[geauxsax]

I'm a big-time Holton fan, but that alto wasn't worth close to what it got at auction. Run of the mill silver alto with no front F and a bent neck? No way.

This one. . .

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Frank-Holton-Saxophone-Elkhorn-Wis-Ser-32043_W0QQitemZ270350556743QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item270350556743&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A13%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

. . .has front F spatula, extra keys, no obvious neck pull down, and went with ZERO bids starting at $149.00

[Baltimore B]

My guess is the players who knock Holton never played one and are just repeating what they have heard.

Well put!My very first horn was a Holton I bought from a friend cause it was cheap and I wanted a tenor. There certainly wasn't anything wrong with it and infact, I used it for the first 2 years of my journey and recieved many compliments on my sound. Folks would ask, "how long you been playin?" And I'd say "less than a year" followed by "and you sound that good?" It didn't hurt that I had a nice mouthpiece and a teacher who stressed "allways work on getting that big tone!" I imagine the horn itself had something to do with that.

If I tried it out hearing a bunch of negative hype, that's probably what I would have heard coming out of it. Listening back to a recording I did years ago, it sounds much better than what any naysayer would lead you to believe. Big, full and rich, certainly not tinny. Intonationwas good too, much better than some expensive horns I've tried and owned since.

I'm really glad that was the horn I started out on, it was a good place to begin and who knows, maybe could have been a keeper.....It certainly kept my interest!:)

[hgrail]

What is that barbell shaped thing by the case - the thing with two green cushoned ends?

Could it be (shudder) a saxophone mute??:shock:


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140304100673&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004

FWIW I had a Holton 241 tenor back in college. The keywork wasn't anything to rave about - but it did have a great big sound!

I only paid like $400 bucks for it back in the 80's - but then perhaps I overpaid... $^)

[hgrail]

I took a quick look on fleabay and found that except for the "Collegate" series of horns - a number of them have pretty high (considering) asking prices.

http://instruments.shop.ebay.com/items/?_nkw=holton&_sacat=16231&_fromfsb=&_odkw=&_osacat=16231&_trksid=m194&ssPageName=STRK:MEFSRCHX:SRCH

And actually - doesn't this Holton look alot like a Yamaha with that funky keyguard?

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOLTON-Tenor-Sax-Saxophone-Case-No-Res-3_W0QQitemZ310126655820QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defau ltDomain_0?hash=item310126655820&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

[bruce bailey]

I think that unknown item is a piccolo stand.

[bari_sax_diva]

This is about the statements I read and hear from some rather prominent players, collectors, web site operators and repair persons: Holtons suck! They are really only good, even the best of them, for hanging on the wall or making lamps out of, because they are tinny-thin sounding, weirdly keyed, poorly built, impossible to regulate, cheesy plated, have questionable intonation, etc etc.

. . .

So, what's up with all that? This post is already way too long, so I wont expound further of my own experience and small collection until others do.



First off, I am a die-hard Yamaha fan. I *love* modern ergos and the way they let my weirdly-shaped hands play the sax. I *love* the even scale I get with my "generic" Yamis.

So... I say, who CARES what the "rather prominent players, collectors, web site operators and repair persons" say? If you love your Holtons, then play them until the keys fall off. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice-versa. Play what turns YOU on.

:D

[Walter Webb]

Agreed, and it will be so, that I will play them till the keys fall off or I die first.
And who gives a rodent's behind about the negative nabobs from Selmerville, Buescherland, Martinville, their private Chinese concession brand, or Connstantinople. If I wanted to talk trash about a sax brand, I would warn the poor folks about to buy a Mark 6 that they better play first, before shelling out the price of 27 Holtons, because they are notoriously different, one from the next.

I agree totally about the Yamahas: I play my YBS 62S (silver plate, no lacquer, and holding up solid after 12 years of constant use) in a 12 piece Funk/Old School R&B band, and I also enjoy a YAS 61. Meanwhile, for folk and ethnic ensembles, I play a Rudy Wiedoeft Holton alto with the sweetest, brightest tone that loves a small room with acoustic instruments. If I wanted to tone it down even further, I could use the original Holton slide-on sleeve mpc and sound like 1930 all over again. BTW, the Rudy is nicely in tune, nothing like a Yamaha, as we know they are dead on, but easy enough to manage.

powerof12.com
Walter

[bruce bailey]

The first alto I boought was a Mark VI in 1964. It was my main horn for about 35 years and then the trouble started. ebay, SOTW, internet, etc. was tempting me to buy some stuff to sell. The problem was that I would buy things and KEEP them. I would never buy a Mark VI today due to the prices. I figure that I have about $11K in all my saxes (27) which number about 16 altos, 4 C Melodies, a tenor, bari, a 'nino, C soprano and 4 Bb sopranos. About half of them are near mint condition. Rather than buy one Mark VI alto, you can have about a dozen nice Conns, Martins, Bueschers or whatever. I only have 2 Holtons right now and they are as good or better than most US built horns.

[bari_sax_diva]

I figure that I have about $11K in all my saxes (27) which number about 16 altos, 4 C Melodies, a tenor, bari, a 'nino, C soprano and 4 Bb sopranos. About half of them are near mint condition.


http://leannepowers.com/forumcrap/smilies/jaw.gif

[SaxPlayer1004]

Note. I need to start getting into vintage low cost horns. Jaw drop goes here as well. I have almost that in bari's between horns, mouthpieces etc. *tear*. Amendment to New Years resolution. SELL

[jazzbug1]

I recall in the late 1950s, 60s, and 70s that if one played saxophone, he was considered an amateur unless he pulled a Selmer out of his case. I remember very few players who played anything else. It was the diffence between a JAZZ musician and a "wedding band" tenor player. The result was that music stores couldn't sell their non-Selmer horns for much. I sold my Top Hat and Cane Buescher 400 for $100.00 in 1967 and it wound up as a school band rental instrument. Many of these horns were dropped on the football field numerous times until they were junk. That explains the scarcity of 1930s-1940s tenors/altos/baris in top shape, whereas Selmers from this era are usually well-played, but not smashed. I never saw a Selmer in a school band, but I saw plenty of Conns, etc. My alto buddy had a Conn gold artist model via the school rental program.
School horns last about ten years before death by dropping on the pavement. I'm very happy to see the trend of appreciation for the old American horns again. We listen to the great players of the past on record and marvel at the sound, although few used Selmers. That big fat sound is generated by a larger bore horn, which most of the American horns were, as it took a big sound to fill a venue with the lack of microphones
in each section. Selmers are fine, but there are alternative sounds.

[JayeSF]

As I was researching Holton, I came upon tons of disparaging comments.

My 2 favorite quotes regarding Holtons....true chestnuts, both of em, have to be THESE:

"Holton Saxophones are without a doubt the "Yugo's" of the Sax world. Holton was never able to market a sucessful Saxophone model that could compete with the big boys"

(This from our very own Moderator, Saxismyaxe....mind you.)

And then, of course, my alltime favorite:

"I'm of the opinion that Holton more_or_less submitted to the fact that, after 1925 or so, they could never really compete with the other big saxophone makers like Conn and Buescher. They do produce a quite respectable line of brasswinds, but I think they produced saxophones for the sake of saying, "We offer an entire line of band instruments."
There aren't a lot of Holton models worth mentioning, so no jump station. Go here for a serial number chart.

From saxpics.com....Sweeeeeeet, no ?

Indeed...why do people say these things ? Or, more specifically, people certainly have the right to say these things....BUT...why, more recently, does the internet tend to amplify certain opinion.... into.... accepted fact ?

Part of the answer may lie in the fact that the rep of Holtons has been getting trashed long before the invention of the internet....so www just has amplified the process...

Who knows ?....but as has been said, these continue to remain a secret, to anyone willing to play one for a while, themselves ....

But right off the bat, for me, this 241 sounds absolutely killer...I mean, the tone is just big, fat, full, rich, kick#ss,up and down the register....and I am only playing it with a Hite Premier MP...if it was a more advanced player, with a more advanced MP... holy cow...

Furthermore, the mechanisms and keywork are really quite alright...takes as much getting used to as any other vintage horn....

As JB says...I am also happy to see the trend of appreciation for old, American (and European, too) classic horns...makes one remember when this country was a producer of quality... not solely a consumer of junk.

(Can you imagine living in Elkhart IN in the '20's-50's ? Nutz....)

But I do think that some Holton models deserve a place in that vintage pantheon, too.