Bars 3 & 4 of All of Me

[Tonezone]

Hi,

Let's say that All of Me is played in C maj concert. This makes bars 3 & 4 E7. When I play such a scale, I find there is a bit of a tonal clash between the key of the whole piece and the C# used in E7.

Can anybody give me advice how best to approach this problem.

Thanks.

[Bigtone]

Simple... just use a C natural (or flat 6). You can go to the flat 9 as well (F natural).

[hgiles]

Simple... just use a C natural (or flat 6). You can go to the flat 9 as well (F natural).

/thread.

Now I am going to gripe a little. Too many theory books teach you to play such and such a scale over a particular chord when context is not taken into account. These books would have you play mixolydian over that E7 and as you found out, it doesn't quite sound right to you.

What I find to be more applicable is knowing the primary chord tones E-G#-B-D. The other three notes in between that I would probably apply as my first choice are the DIATONIC (to C major) notes F, A, C -- as BIG TONE suggests. I don't know what this scale is called, I really don't care. It's the primary sound that is going to resonate with your audience. Remember, John Coltrane isn't listening, neither is Jamey Aebersold.

If you had to play 20 choruses I would offer other suggestions, but only after you've played the more obvious choices. There is a hierarchy of sounds that you should aim for. Mixolydian isn't the first choice here in this context.

As I've said before, when in doubt -- pick the diatonic note.

Now you can /thread.

[BOPITY FUNK]

Dominant of A minor-- relative to C major. With these great standards think the words, remember Dexter Gordon very often recited the lyric of a tune before he played it.Even better listen to Lester and Lady Day turn this tune inside out. I,d have thought the last few bars were more likely to raise comment actually.
Regards BF

[Tonezone]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

Just out of interest Haywood, what would your suggestions be if you did have to play 20 choruses. How would you open it out harmonically?

[Pete Thomas]

Too many theory books teach you to play such and such a scale over a particular chord when context is not taken into account. These books would have you play mixolydian over that E7 and as you found out, it doesn't quite sound right to you.


Exactly. A scale approach can work, but only when you look at wehere the harmony has been and where it's going. In this case:


Simple... just use a C natural (or flat 6). You can go to the flat 9 as well (F natural).

This works because the E7 is a dominant of A minor, not A major (which the myxolydian would suggest - erroneously in this case), so what works very well is the A harmonic minor scale on E7. But not just as a scale, you still need to be careful about note placement, e.g. chord tones on the beat.

One nice thing to note is that this harmonic minor implication (b9 and b13 of myxolydian) does actually work even when going to a major.

[andybaws]

You have to be aware of what key you're in and what the chord progression is doing functionally rather than viewing each chord in isolation and dogmatically prescribing mixolydian for every dominant chord. In this case you can either view the E7 as a dominant chord in the key of A minor, or a secondary dominant in C (V7 of vi). In either of these situations you're more likely to play F natural and C natural than F sharp and C sharp.

[MartinMusicMan]

Way too much thinking and theory going on for me.

1. Play the melody. What does that tell you about notes/scales that work in those bars?

2. C to E7 is a common blues/trad jazz change. Can you hear it in other songs? What do other players do over this change?

[Grumps]

I used to never like playing this song until I dumped the book and just went at it by ear. Now I actually dig it.

[RootyTootoot]

remember Dexter Gordon very often recited the lyric of a tune before he played it.

I'm learning a lot today. :)

Do you mean on recordings? Which ones? You mean out loud to the audience? I've never heard him do that that I can remember but I'll be very glad if he did.

[andybaws]

Imo it's a case of "a little learning is a dangerous thing". Meaning that if you're going to try and understand theoretically the chord progression in order to find better ways to improvise over it, you need to learn it properly and not in a half-assed, quick fix way, otherwise you are better just playing purely by ear.

Also the fact that a lot of people get confused with chord-scale theory - E7 isn't a scale, it's a chord, and it doesn't have a C# in it.

And I agree that improvising on the melody is a good idea in any case as well.

[Pete Thomas]

Way too much thinking and theory going on for me.

1. Play the melody. What does that tell you about notes/scales that work in those bars?

Sadly, very little in this case, the melody notes here are only a triad. Otherwise yes, always check the melody for impro ideas, very good advice.

But without that I think it's useful to know a bit about the harmony and theory. Most of the great jazz players I've met have or had a wonderful grasp of theory. I find the best thing is to get a good balance between theory and a more aural/intuitive based approach.

[Bigtone]

I'm learning a lot today. :)

Do you mean on recordings? Which ones? You mean out loud to the audience? I've never heard him do that that I can remember but I'll be very glad if he did.


Dexter did this all the time, although, sometimes he improvised a bit on the words. You can find this on some live recordings... off hand, the live recording at Carnegie Hall with Johnny Griffin, and "Our Man In Amsterdam."

[hgiles]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

Just out of interest Haywood, what would your suggestions be if you did have to play 20 choruses. How would you open it out harmonically?

Chorus 1: What I said above
Chorus 2: What I said above in bar 3, hw Dim bar 4
Chorus 3: hw Dim bar 3; Altered bar 4
Chorus 4: C7 arpeggio bar 3, Bb7 arpeggio bar 4
Chorus 5: Bø bar 3; E7alt bar 4
Chorus 6: D-Δ | F-Δ
Chorus 7: D In Sen | F In Sen
...

Don't get me wrong, I couldn't spontaneously faithfully, convincingly do this stuff on gig, but I do practice harmonic and motivic evolvement quite a lot. More, I think I understand music well enough to understand development of a solo.

My gripe with a lot of learned (and better players) is on their first one or two chorusus they are already playing chorus 10. Great stuff, but it doesn't serve the musical whole and it's not seductive and compelling as a whole. Be sensitive and considerate of your bandmates and your audience. You can't just start dropping Coltrane changes (or in this case E7 Mixolydian) on them out of the gate.

[hgiles]

I'm learning a lot today. :)

Do you mean on recordings? Which ones? You mean out loud to the audience? I've never heard him do that that I can remember but I'll be very glad if he did.


"Whether you are [near] or young, whether you are near or far. Makes no difference 'cause I am so completely yours -- More Than You Know!"

Something like that...

[DukeCity]

I'm learning a lot today. :)

Do you mean on recordings? Which ones? You mean out loud to the audience? I've never heard him do that that I can remember but I'll be very glad if he did.

"A country dance was being held in a garden
I felt a bump and heard an oh, beg your pardon
Suddenly I saw - Polka Dots and Moonbeams
All around a pug-nosed dream"

I remember him doing that recitation in a video (possibly "Jazz At The Maintenance Shop") from the '70s.

[jazzcat58]

I used to never like playing this song until I dumped the book and just went at it by ear. Now I actually dig it.

i would go along with this, get to grips with the melody , practice it over a few times get it under your fingers, i think the soloing will benifit from this, its a really good tune to play by ear..

[Dean Mongerio]

What I find to be more applicable is knowing the primary chord tones E-G#-B-D. The other three notes in between that I would probably apply as my first choice are the DIATONIC (to C major) notes F, A, C -- as BIG TONE suggests. I don't know what this scale is called, I really don't care. It's the primary sound that is going to resonate with your audience. Remember, John Coltrane isn't listening, neither is Jamey Aebersold.

It's an A harmonic minor scale, and the most basic way to play over that type of change (Bird used that device all the time, especially over a VI7--ii7).

In this particular example, I actually use the (concert) F#, C# and A# all the time and they sound great. It's less about what notes work on paper and more about knowing how to shape a melodic line with proper resolutions.

[MartinMusicMan]

Sadly, very little in this case, the melody notes here are only a triad. I think a triad tells you a fair amount, especially in relation to the chord that precedes it and the chord that follows it.


I find the best thing is to get a good balance between theory and a more aural/intuitive based approach.Agreed.

[toughtenor]

I'm learning a lot today. :)

Do you mean on recordings? Which ones? You mean out loud to the audience? I've never heard him do that that I can remember but I'll be very glad if he did.


"what's new....how is the world treating you ?..."
Several Live recordings have Dex stating the title and first lines of the lyrics out loud to the audience, or in case of tunes without words a typical dry humourous remark like "Fried Bananas........<pause> .... Fried bananas.........very tasty.. :)

Live at the amsterdam paradiso (great record) and the records made in switzerland are good examples.