Which istrument is this one?

[cuthbert]

http://www.jamcom-online.de/sax.html

I posted here because I suppose it's related with Kohlert and Kelwerth.I think it's from the 30's.Any idea?

[spiderjames]

This is one of those mysterious horns that show up occasionally as Nationals, orpheum deluxes etc... I personally believe they are keilwerths. They look similar to the champion model and also resemble the hohner presidents and keilwerth made weltklang (sp) baritones(Max or Richard Keilwerth?). I guess the short answer is 'I really don't know for sure'.

[Pete]

A better question might be, "What makes you think it's a Kohlert or a Keilwerth?" I agree that the horn was probably made between 1925 and 1935 (note the G# trill, fork Eb and it looks like an altissimo D# trill, not an altissimo F# key).

* The Kohler horns mentioned here earlier look closer to this example than a Keilwerth or Kohlert.
* The Hohner horns and Richard Keilwerth horns came much later.
* The Champion didn't have the additional trill keys.

Of course, it's just my opinion. I could be wrong ...

[spiderjames]

I have a Luxus tenor that shares similar key work to the champion. most notably the octave mechanism and basic key layout but has a trill key that operates the Eb palm key. also has pearl keys like the pennsylvania model. The basic body/key layout loooks similar to this horn. Maybe this is a keilwerth supplied body like the later D&J horns?

[cuthbert]

A better question might be, "What makes you think it's a Kohlert or a Keilwerth?" I agree that the horn was probably made between 1925 and 1935 (note the G# trill, fork Eb and it looks like an altissimo D# trill, not an altissimo F# key).

* The Kohler horns mentioned here earlier look closer to this example than a Keilwerth or Kohlert.
* The Hohner horns and Richard Keilwerth horns came much later.
* The Champion didn't have the additional trill keys.

Of course, it's just my opinion. I could be wrong ...

Good question:

-bore size
-rolled tone holes
-keyguards etc.. etc... look very similar to old instruments called "toneking" of the same age

But...didn't you write in the Kohlert chronology that kohler didn't produce saxes? :?:

However there's a great confusion,all the german saxes of this age look the same,like they are the stencil of themself :?

What happened in these years?

[spiderjames]

Perhaps the same thing that happened with all the mark six clones. perhaps these are copies of keilwerth.

these german style horns that keep popping up with all sorts of different names on them share enough similarities to one another (neck brace, keywork, RH bell keys with wire guards etc.) that makes me believe there is a branded horn somewhere that these are a stencil of. One of the Keilwerth bros just seems the obvious choice.

[OLDAIR]

Dorfler and Jorka seem to have made a business out of stenciling their horns with a variety of names. From what I can tell, they never made a horn with their name on it. From all reports, they appear to have purchased bodies from one (or more) or the Keilwerths and put other people's names on them. I have (or have seen) a number of saxes that appear to have been made in post-war Germany that are Keilwerth copies or Keilwerth Hybrids that many people seem to think were made by D&J: Orpheum, Warner, Voss, Pierre Maure, Rene Dumont, National possibly Concord and at least one that was made in Holland that looked like it had a Keilwerth body but keywork that was markedly different from all the others. Every one I have gotten my hands on has played very nicely. The Orpheum is the heaviest sax I have ever seen - plays like a dream.