Intonation Problems On Zephyrs

[Emily]

I recently posted about fixing up my old King Zephyr alto that is from around 1935-40. I am going to do all the things that would fix it up like new corks, pads, and a chemical bath. However there is still the problem of its intonation. I love the sound of my Zephyr but the intonation is pretty bad.
I know that you can take it to a shop and they can change the key heights to fix it but I have heard that the sound is also changed. If this is true I would rather not do that unless I really have to.
So I was thinking that perhaps there was a different mouthpiece I could get? The ones I have are a Selmer C* and one that came with my yamaha. Neither of those seem to really help much with the intonation of it. I have heard that sometimes older mouthpieces work better with older saxophones. Is this true?
And if it is what mouthpieces does anyone know of that could help me play better in tune on it.
Also if there aren't any mouthpieces that people know of does anyone know of any tips to help make it better?

[Budget Explosion]

I love Zephyr altos and for years I struggled with the wild intonation (at least 50% my fault, maybe more)...thanks to SOTW, I found that good techs can really straighten out the intonation (and help the intonation challenged like myself.) Kritavi bought my beloved Zephyr after I had an embarrassing out of tune recording session...he sent the horn to Les with good results (so I heard) and abadcliche set up another Zephyr alto for me that played easily in tune. So, a good and sensitive tech can set up the horn so that it has a great tone and good intonation.

[martysax]

My Zephyr alto is from 1945 so it's a little different, but I know what you mean.

When I purchased it a few years ago it played, but I immediately had it overhauled to fix anything mechanical before I started with the intonation struggle. After I brought it home I took all my mouthpieces and started the process with my tuner.

Luckily, like you I wasn't the first on this forum with this issue. Frankly, if you used the search function like I did you would have found that the Runyon mouthpieces tend to have good intonation on these horns. I bought a red custom 8(?) and it works fine through the entire range of the horn.

Have fun with the Zephyr!

[Emily]

So, a good and sensitive tech can set up the horn so that it has a great tone and good intonation.
Thanks for the info. If I can't find any mouthpieces that work for me at least I will know that it still can be fixed.


Frankly, if you used the search function like I did you would have found that the Runyon mouthpieces tend to have good intonation on these horns. I bought a red custom 8(?) and it works fine through the entire range of the horn.

Have fun with the Zephyr!
Thanks. Do you know if there is any way that I could try one out first before buying one? I don't want to get stuck with a mouthpiece that I really don't like or one that doesn't work well for me...

[martysax]

Thanks. Do you know if there is any way that I could try one out first before buying one? I don't want to get stuck with a mouthpiece that I really don't like or one that doesn't work well for me...

No, we buy many and sell what doesn't work as desireable.

The average member on this forum has ~10-15 alto mouthpieces. Only a few are used.

[MartinMods]

I love the sound of my Zephyr but the intonation is pretty bad.

Can you describe how it's bad in more detail?

[SaxPlayer1004]

I think that year range put's it in the voll-true II body style. Do you have a double tone hold G, and are your bell keys open or do they have traditional keyguards on them? The voll-true II I have is rather picky with mouthpiece, and alas, I haven't found a perfect one yet, but a caravan and meyer 6m *had it's chamber opened up* seem to be working pretty well.

[Emily]

No, we buy many and sell what doesn't work as desireable.

The average member on this forum has ~10-15 alto mouthpieces. Only a few are used.
Ok. I guess I will just have to order one that I hope will work and if it doesn't I will have to sell it. I was only asking because I am only 15 and I don't have a real job so in turn I don't have too much money. If I want something I usually have to just save up my money that I get for my birthday and holidays or do some random jobs for my neighbors. I don't really want to end up spending a lot of money on mouthpieces that I wont use.


Can you describe how it's bad in more detail?
The main problem is that it is extremely sharp. Even if I lip the notes down it seems to pretty sharp still. On my yamaha I have my mouthpiece pretty far down on the cork, but on my Zephyr I have to pull it way out and even then it is still sharp. It seems to get worse the higher it goes as well.
Does that help you any? Or do I need to clarify something? I am not sure how well I really explained that...


I think that year range put's it in the voll-true II body style. Do you have a double tone hold G, and are your bell keys open or do they have traditional keyguards on them? The voll-true II I have is rather picky with mouthpiece, and alas, I haven't found a perfect one yet, but a caravan and meyer 6m *had it's chamber opened up* seem to be working pretty well.
I am not quite sure what a double tone hold G means, but the bell keys are open. They have a bar that curves around them, but does not hold them down or anything.
http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq240/saxyphones/IMG_2175.jpg
http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq240/saxyphones/IMG_2202.jpg
I have some pictures if that helps you at all. :)
And thank you for the information on the mouthpieces. I will look into those

[RootyTootoot]

. I was only asking because I am only 15 and I don't have a real job so in turn I don't have too much money. If I want something I usually have to just save up my money that I get for my birthday and holidays or do some random jobs for my neighbors. I don't really want to end up spending a lot of money on mouthpieces that I wont use.

At last, this forum has a sensible member :twisted::D. Well said, Emily :).

I think what marty was getting at earlier was that you could maybe buy a couple of second hand mouthpieces, try them out and if they don't work for you sell them on for about what you paid for them.

Another possibility would be to visit a shop which stocks quite a few mouthpieces and try them out on the spot. Personally I don't like that option because I think you need more than a few minutes with a mouthpiece to see if it works for you. Another possibility would be to ask a shop if you could try 2 or 3 mouthpieces on approval but you'd probably have to leave a substantial deposit to cover damage.

Anyhow. Good luck.

[SaxPlayer1004]

Thats the original series Zephyr. The chambers on your C* and 4c are probably not big enough. I just popped a Link STM 5* on mine and it worked well. Those are almost always lurking around on ebay.

[MartinMods]

I just gave away a nice Otto Link 5 Hard Rubber Mpce with a horn I sold. That would have been perfect for you. Look for a hard rubber Link 5 -5*. They are cheaper than the metal ones. The large chamber will help your intonation woes quite a bit.

[Emily]

At last, this forum has a sensible member :twisted::D. Well said, Emily :).

I think what marty was getting at earlier was that you could maybe buy a couple of second hand mouthpieces, try them out and if they don't work for you sell them on for about what you paid for them.

Another possibility would be to visit a shop which stocks quite a few mouthpieces and try them out on the spot. Personally I don't like that option because I think you need more than a few minutes with a mouthpiece to see if it works for you. Another possibility would be to ask a shop if you could try 2 or 3 mouthpieces on approval but you'd probably have to leave a substantial deposit to cover damage.

Anyhow. Good luck.
Not many of my friends seem to think that at all. They find it silly that I am willing to spend my own money on my saxophones. I on the other hand find it silly that they are willing to pay 50 dollars more for jeans with holes in them because they are "designer". :rolleyes:

And thanks for the tip about asking a local store about mouthpieces. The store that I always go to is very helpful and I have a feeling that they would be willing to help me out. I had just never known that you could go to a store and try out mouthpieces so I didn't even think to ask.



Thats the original series Zephyr. The chambers on your C* and 4c are probably not big enough. I just popped a Link STM 5* on mine and it worked well. Those are almost always lurking around on ebay.
Thanks I may try that as well. And sure enough there is one on ebay right now.
The only thing is that I have never tried a metal mouthpiece before. Are they much different from the plastic ones?

[Grumps]

Mine plays wildly out of tune with modern styled mouthpieces. I'd suggest looking for something not too open, no high baffle and with a large chamber. My son used an old Woodwind Co. (K6) for mine that works very well with the horn. That's a vintage piece, but it doesn't run nearly as expensive as others. You could purchase mouthpieces secondhand right here in the marketplace (or on Ebay), and if it doesn't work out for you, you can flip them for the same value (or trade them for another piece). Also, if you're looking for a Link and don't want metal, you could try a Tone Edge.

[Emily]

I just gave away a nice Otto Link 5 Hard Rubber Mpce with a horn I sold. That would have been perfect for you. Look for a hard rubber Link 5 -5*. They are cheaper than the metal ones. The large chamber will help your intonation woes quite a bit.
Oh thanks for the info. I really hope that I can try one of those out. :)



Mine plays wildly out of tune with modern styled mouthpieces. I'd suggest looking for something not too open, no high baffle and with a large chamber. My son used an old Woodwind Co. (K6) for mine that works very well with the horn. That's a vintage piece, but it doesn't run nearly as expensive as others. You could purchase mouthpieces secondhand right here in the marketplace (or on Ebay), and if it doesn't work out for you, you can flip them for the same value (or trade them for another piece). Also, if you're looking for a Link and don't want metal, you could try a Tone Edge.
I will be sure to keep all of that in mind. Thanks so much for your help.

[Emily]

After looking up the mouthpieces that everyone has suggested I have found a few used ones on ebay. The only problem is that I either get outbid or it gets out of my price range.
So I was looking up large chamber mouthpieces and found a Rico Graftonite. It is really cheap, even new, so I could afford get one with no problem. The only thing is that I don't know if it would work well on my Zephyr. Anyone have any thoughts on it?
Oh and I realize that it will not be as good as the mouthpieces mentioned but it would be nice for me to at least have a mouthpiece that I can control the intonation with for a bit until I can afford a better one. :)

[NissanVintageSax]

RIA metal 7* and E. Rousseau HR 5R work very well on Zephyr Tenor. The WC Sumner #3 which worked well on my Amati and Buescher, sounded like a dud on the Zephyr.

[Swingtone]

Nissan,
I think hers is a pre-war Zephyr. I had one of those (a 196,xxx) in the tenor version, and yes, the intonation was not the best, even with a large chambered Morgan Jazz. Open C# was just sharp compared to the rest of the horn, which was kind of a pain to have to adjust for all the time.

So I sold it, even though the sound was probably the most interesting of any tenor I've ever owned. My current 1956 Zephyr--which, like your '66, is more like a Super 20--has very good intonation up and down--even the palm keys play reasonably in tune.

Having owned several vintage tenors from a wide range of eras made by Conn, Buescher, King and Martin, I have noticed that the intonation on virtually ALL the American horns markedly improved starting around the early to mid 50s, with the possibly exception of Buescher, which was always pretty darn good--at least going back to the 20s. I have had much worse luck with horns made in the 30s and 40s, and that's even with horns of the same make and model. For example, ON AVERAGE, there's a good chance a 6M from the mid 50s will play more in tune than one from the late 30s--and even with the same mouthpieces.

The reason? Advances in engineering technology made after the second world war. Just think about how vast the improvements in recording technology were in the early to mid 50s (just listen to Saxophone Colossus as compared with Bird's West Coast Dial sessions from the late 40s). It's no secret that American technology in all industries made huge leaps and bounds in the decade following the war.

Yes, it was America's Golden Age, when everything we used was still made here. Unfortunately, it appears that we are now entering a dark age from which we may not emerge as anything more than a 2nd rate socialist country--just like most of Europe.

[NissanVintageSax]

Good point swingtone. But, what I noticed that is consistant between my '26 King Bari, and my '66 King Tenor, is they both took longer shank, larger bore mouthpieces to play in tune, with a full rounded sound. Haven't played an early Zephyr, but if it's anything like either of my two Kings, they aren't as mouthpiece friendly as Bueschers or Selmers (though, there are some pieces that work better than others, albeit still in tune, even on those). Now, I know I am generalizing, but I'm just posting what I have experienced. This is what's great about a forum though. Everyone sharing their personal experiences and facts about setups and instruments. I just hope I didn't confuse the poor girl!

[Swingtone]

Yeah, same here. No need to sell your Zeph, Emily! I'm just pretty picky about intonation (and have G.A.S. all the time to boot ;)). And just because I never found the right mouthpiece for my '37 Zephyr, doesn't mean you won't.

[NissanVintageSax]

One note of mention on my '26 King Bari and '66 King Zephyr: I did have to have the neck lengthened about 1/2" even w/the Otto Link 5* metal (Bari). My Zephyr tenor has a Gloger neck, so that may be helping w/intonation on that (never did have the stock neck for it when I got it).

[Emily]

Ya I have used a few mouthpieces on my Zephyr but none really seem to want to play in tune. I suppose it is probably because they have all been small chambered, modern ones. I hope that I can find a mouthpiece that works for it. My private teacher is going to be lending me a meyer he has sometime soon so at least I can try one thing for it.
But I never thought about trying a different neck. Maybe I will try to use one of my other necks on it later. Most likely won't work because my Yamaha neck looks a bit smaller than the Zephyr. My Conn might be about the same size though. I won't know for a bit though since it's in the shop.
And I don't mind hearing about all of your setups and experiences. I find it quite interesting. It doesn't confuse me. Well too much at least. :laughing:

[Grumps]

But I never thought about trying a different neck.
And don't bother. That's a double socket neck, isn't it? Not any neck will fit, and one custom made for only the mere possibility of better intonation would cost you several hundred dollars. Try an older styled mouthpiece as suggested or sell the horn.

[RootyTootoot]

Unfortunately, it appears that we are now entering a dark age from which we may not emerge as anything more than a 2nd rate socialist country--just like most of Europe.

Guffaw. :D

I think you can safely forget that bit of political analysis as far as playing your Zephyr is concerned, Emily!

[martysax]

Guffaw. :D

Harrrrummmmmph!!:D

[NissanVintageSax]

And don't bother. That's a double socket neck, isn't it? Not any neck will fit, and one custom made for only the mere possibility of better intonation would cost you several hundred dollars. Try an older styled mouthpiece as suggested or sell the horn.

This is true. And your early zephyr is double socket. My late Zephyr is single socket. Even so, my Gloger neck was about $700 and took 10 months to arrive (well worth it though!).

[Swingtone]

Guffaw. :D

I think you can safely forget that bit of political analysis as far as playing your Zephyr is concerned, Emily!

Oh yeah! Like YOU'VE never engaged in conversations on here unrelated to saxophones. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! ;)

In particular I seem to recall your being fairly active in those tiresome (thank God, retired) threads started by now-banned high schoolers with titles like, "Post Whatever pops into your head," or some such crucial information. :TGNCHK:

[RootyTootoot]

Oh yeah! Like YOU'VE never engaged in conversations on here unrelated to saxophones. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! ;)

How true :). I'm glad you admit to the kettle, Swingtone. I am quite happy to admit to the pot.


In particular I seem to recall your being fairly active in those tiresome (thank God, retired) threads started by now-banned high schoolers with titles like, "Post Whatever pops into your head," or some such crucial information. :TGNCHK:

Again, quite right. But I have never attempted political indoctrination. Yet. Or perhaps I have, under the influence of one too many Budweisers. Who can say? Thank goodness Emily and her peers are probably more than match for either of us. :)

[SAXISMYAXE]

Swingtone,

I just KNOW how much you missed me while I was away battling the ice storms.;) I must however reiterate our NO POLITICS rule, and ask that you bring it back on topic please.

Thank you.

[Yellowhorn]

Ya I have used a few mouthpieces on my Zephyr but none really seem to want to play in tune. I suppose it is probably because they have all been small chambered, modern ones. I hope that I can find a mouthpiece that works for it. My private teacher is going to be lending me a meyer he has sometime soon so at least I can try one thing for it.
But I never thought about trying a different neck. Maybe I will try to use one of my other necks on it later. Most likely won't work because my Yamaha neck looks a bit smaller than the Zephyr. My Conn might be about the same size though. I won't know for a bit though since it's in the shop.
And I don't mind hearing about all of your setups and experiences. I find it quite interesting. It doesn't confuse me. Well too much at least. :laughing:

No offense, but the problem, I think, is neither your Zephyr nor your mouthpiece. I am afraid it is you and your embouchure, breathing that are causing your intonation problem. Super 20's or Zephyr's are not for students (nor are they student-level horns because of their nickel-plated SOLID SILVER keywork).

Try to practice long tones with a tuner and work on your breathing technique.

[RootyTootoot]

No offense, but the problem, I think, is neither your Zephyr nor your mouthpiece. I am afraid it is you and your embouchure, breathing that are causing your intonation problem. Super 20's or Zephyr's are not for students

So, hang on. You're telling her she's got the wrong horn now? Or that she needs to work on her long tones? I'm confused by that advice and I'm pretty sure she will be too. Why are Zephyrs "not for students"?

[toughtenor]

The first horn I bought with my own money was a zephyr tenor. Great sound but very hard to control the palm keys intonation. It could also have been me at that time but my teacher of those days had problems in that region with that horn too.
I got rid of it because of this.
years later I bought s20 cleveland series and had no trouble at all with intonation, and an even bigger sound.
So yes , it can be the horn. Take it to a good tech and explain your trouble and see what can be done. If it's not satisfying I'd sell it. No use in fighting a horn. It distracts from the music to be played and slows you down.

[Emily]

Oh right. I forgot about the neck being a double socket. I will just try to find a mouthpiece that works for me. And I am in no hurry since my main saxophone is not that one. I have a yamaha that I use.
And I don't really don't think that is the problem Yellowhorn. It certainly couldn't hurt to practice my longtones but I don't think it matters even if the Zephyr is not a student horn. I actually have never used a "student line" horn. The Zephyr was the horn I started out on and then when we figured out the real age and certain problems with it I convinced my parents to get me a new saxophone. We ended up buying a YAS-475, which is an intermediate horn. And that was in 6th grade. I had very few intonation problems with it and can play in tune on it whenever I pick it up. And I am actually getting a Custom Z from yamaha in March, which is a professional horn. So even if the Zephyr is a higher grade horn I don't think that is what my problem is....

[Yellowhorn]

No offense, but the problem, I think, is neither your Zephyr nor your mouthpiece. I am afraid it is you and your embouchure, breathing that are causing your intonation problem. Super 20's or Zephyr's are not for students

So, hang on. You're telling her she's got the wrong horn now? Or that she needs to work on her long tones? I'm confused by that advice and I'm pretty sure she will be too. Why are Zephyrs "not for students"?

No, I didn't say she has the wrong horn. I said the problem may not be the horn or her mouthpiece, but rather her breathing technique, embouchure. If a player does not do well with these techniques, it doesn't matter what horn s/he plays, intonation will be a problem. And we are speaking of Zephyr and Super 20, whose intonation can go wacko if one is not a good player - particularly in the high register. So for a student, it may be easier, say, to start on a Yamaha 23 or something like that because it is easy to play and get the right intonation.

Here is a review of a Super 20, and please note the writer's emphasis on intonation in the last section of the article:

http://www.thomaszinnen.com/Product_Reviews/King_Super_20_Tenor_Sax.html

That is what I meant when I said Super 20 and Zephyr are not for students.

[Emily]

No, I didn't say she has the wrong horn. I said the problem may not be the horn or her mouthpiece, but rather her breathing technique, embouchure. If a player does not do well with these techniques, it doesn't matter what horn s/he plays, intonation will be a problem. And we are speaking of Zephyr and Super 20, whose intonation can go wacko if one is not a good player - particularly in the high register. So for a student, it may be easier, say, to start on a Yamaha 23 or something like that because it is easy to play and get the right intonation.
But I have no problem with my intonation on any other saxophone I have played. I never started on a 23. My horn is a 475 and I have never had a problem with it. I also tried out the 82Z before we ordered it and I did not have a problem with that either. So I am pretty sure that it is not just me. I may be partly to blame, but I think that it is mostly the mouthpiece not working well with the horn.

[Yellowhorn]

No, I didn't say she has the wrong horn. I said the problem may not be the horn or her mouthpiece, but rather her breathing technique, embouchure. If a player does not do well with these techniques, it doesn't matter what horn s/he plays, intonation will be a problem. And we are speaking of Zephyr and Super 20, whose intonation can go wacko if one is not a good player - particularly in the high register. So for a student, it may be easier, say, to start on a Yamaha 23 or something like that because it is easy to play and get the right intonation.
But I have no problem with my intonation on any other saxophone I have played. I never started on a 23. My horn is a 475 and I have never had a problem with it. I also tried out the 82Z before we ordered it and I did not have a problem with that either. So I am pretty sure that it is not just me. I may be partly to blame, but I think that it is mostly the mouthpiece not working well with the horn.

So, change the mouthpiece and practice. Also, check the strength of your reeds - perhaps you need stronger ones.

[SuperAction80]

I've known some pretty good alto players who used S80 C* and Yamaha 4C mouthpieces, and they could never get their vintage horns to play in tune. I would try my 4C on their vintage Martins, Conns, and Kings, and sure enough they were sharp throughout the entire range. I'd then pop on my modern Link STM 6*, and the tuning issues would disappear. The large chambers work wonders on these old horns, and they sound GREAT! A modern production STM, Tone Edge, or Meyer 6M should help you out. You're looking at anywhere from $60 - $120 for one of these pieces though.

FWIW, I've never been able to get a S80 C* to work on any vintage horn that I've ever played. S80s and vintage horns seem to go together like oil and water. Square chambers are silly. :)

[blackfrancis]

Maybe the writer in that article has a problem with intonation. And weak pinkies! And this thing about it being a man's horn... he's way off.

[NissanVintageSax]

Hey, if the 82Z is her horn, more power to her! Someone will want that Zephyr, because it's their horn! My Alto is a Mark VII. Nothing can directly replace it (some saxes come close, but never quite there!). On Tenor, this Zephyr I have has grown on me. After playing it some, andd doing some gigs with it, it is My horn! Nothing can replace that! Baris are too costly to cycle throough, so I'm making old King Bari work for me, and not against me (Mt Bari, would be a Mark VI, and because of the name either. Played on in HS, and I didn't even know I was playing a VI until a year later! All I knew is that when I picked that thing, I didn't want to let it go! It was a school sax, and i babied that thing like it were my own!).

And now back to your regularly scheduled program...

[Emily]

So, change the mouthpiece and practice. Also, check the strength of your reeds - perhaps you need stronger ones.
That is what I am trying to do. The point of this thread was to find suggestions for a different mouthpiece that would work better with it.
And I use a 3. Should I be using something harder than that?



FWIW, I've never been able to get a S80 C* to work on any vintage horn that I've ever played. S80s and vintage horns seem to go together like oil and water. Square chambers are silly. :)
Well I am glad to see I am not the only one with this problem. :)


Maybe the writer in that article has a problem with intonation. And weak pinkies! And this thing about it being a man's horn... he's way off.
I have to say I have pretty small hands and it doesn't seem big or uncomfortable for me. So I am not sure what they are talking about :TGNCHK:


Hey, if the 82Z is her horn, more power to her! Someone will want that Zephyr, because it's their horn! My Alto is a Mark VII. Nothing can directly replace it (some saxes come close, but never quite there!). On Tenor, this Zephyr I have has grown on me. After playing it some, andd doing some gigs with it, it is My horn! Nothing can replace that! Baris are too costly to cycle throough, so I'm making old King Bari work for me, and not against me (Mt Bari, would be a Mark VI, and because of the name either. Played on in HS, and I didn't even know I was playing a VI until a year later! All I knew is that when I picked that thing, I didn't want to let it go! It was a school sax, and i babied that thing like it were my own!).

I am pretty sure that my yamaha will be my main, but it would be nice to get my Zephyr working better because I dont think I could ever get rid of it and I would love to use it more. It was my baby in 5th grade. I loved it even if the intonation was awful. I have to say it was mostly because everyone always thought my sax was "cooler" than the others because of the design. :laughing:

[NissanVintageSax]

That's cool. I can respect that. Kings do seem to be particularly mouthpiece and reed picky. Don't know why, they just are. Definately need a large chambered, semi-open mpc for it to even have a chance though. Wouldn't hurt to have a GOOD tech (as mentioned earlier) look at, and if need be, adjust your key heights. The rest is done w/long tones and the right mouthpiece. These saxes hate modern, small bore, high baffle mouthpieces! Like I said, give Rousseau mouthpieces a try. I think my RIA is close to a Meyer in design (if I recall). I'd say try a RIA, but they're discontinued, so good luck finding one (bought mine new in 1993)!

[Emily]

I will try taking it to some techs that were recommended to me by a private teacher when I have some time and talk to them about that. They may even have some mouthpieces that are larger chambers that I could try if I am lucky.
Thanks for all the help!