What is it with Florida Links?

[grasyk]

Can anyone tell me what is so special with Florida Links? Ive got Lawton B and BBs, Bergs, ordinary Otto Link STMs including a great sounding NY version and my main gig piece which is a RPC115B.
I have managed to get hold of a 8* Florida Link which is in great condition and has perfect rails and tip. I have tried a variation of reeds (makes, types and grades). I have tried and tried to get used to the mouthpiece but have found it very reed picky. When I bought it I thought it would be comparable with my Lawton 8*BB. Contrary to popular belief the Lawton is flexible and is very reed friendly (perhaps I'm lucky). I find the Florida difficult to play expressively. Any suggestions?

[Saxydude]

Any suggestions?

Play the Lawton :angel4:.

Seriously though, there seems to be a myth on this board that all Florida Otto Links are fantastic playing pieces when in reality not all of them are. In fact, some of them are downright duds...maybe you have a dud that could benefit from a quality reface. In any case, Florida Links are investments and if it doesn't work out for you you could always sell it and make a pretty penny.

[toughtenor]

I guess what goes for all Link mpc's goes for the florida's also, they vary a lot.
I recently got a florida no usa with a wolf tayne facing which sounds great and responds very well with lots of reeds. But that doesn't mean that is the case with all florida links. It's best to try before you buy but that's often unrealistic since they are so few of them on the market...
It might be that another player finds it a great piece as well as my "great piece" might not do anything for the next player. It's also very personal.
Maybe it's best to sell it or trade it untill you find a florida you do like.
They CAN be great, you have to find the right one for you.

[bruce bailey]

Play the Lawton and sell the Link....you can buy a nice horn with that Link money!

[BigVSax]

Yeah, sell the link on eBay or this forum. If it dont play, no use keeping it. Someone will pay good money for it.

Also, everyone's personal makeup is different (internal oral cavity, jaw structure, etc.) so maybe its just not your thang.

[Enviroguy]

At least for me, the Florida STM has a core to the sound that the modern STM lacks. Also, the Florida can be made to play bright when wanted if you know how to control it. The modern STM stays more in its darker character all the time.

But again, this is just my experience with my particular Florida STM. Your mileage may vary. ;)

[Grumps]

Can anyone tell me what is so special with Florida Links?... I have managed to get hold of a 8* Florida Link which is in great condition and has perfect rails and tip.
I believe it is quite possible that the way these things were designed and cut, they just play more efficiently with a tip opening from 5-7*. I used to have a 5 that just sang, but just preferred more open pieces. When I later got a vintage 9, it just wasn't there. Now I know that's limited experience, but I'm not the only one with such experiences.

[themacintrasher]

If you don't like it, sell it.

[Grumps]

Yup. Don't go chasing the dragon.

[wersax]

I believe it is quite possible that the way these things were designed and cut, they just play more efficiently with a tip opening from 5-7*. I used to have a 5 that just sang, but just preferred more open pieces. When I later got a vintage 9, it just wasn't there. Now I know that's limited experience, but I'm not the only one with such experiences.

+1. The Links in general work better with a more close tip than I want to use.

[bruce bailey]

Years ago I used a Link HR on a Mark VI bari and it was great. Recently I got a Martin Bari and in the quest for a mouthpiece I borrowed a STM 6*. It was horrible, no middle register and the intonation was like a cheap horn from China! An old tubby played great on it so it just may be a mouthpiece to horn thing.

[grasyk]

Guess I'll favour my Lawton. On the other hand I might get a refacing job done. Guys, thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.

[Grumps]

On the other hand I might get a refacing job done.
Why destroy the value of the piece just for the possibility it will play better for you? Leave it to posterity in its original form.

[grasyk]

Why destroy the value of the piece just for the possibility it will play better for you? Leave it to posterity in its original form.

Grumps. I would rather it have some magic breathed on it by an expert than it be stuck in a draw gathering dust and increasing in value. I think mouthpieces should be used.

[Grumps]

I think mouthpieces should be used.
I do too, and I'm sure there's someone out there that can use it in its original form. So many of these vintage pieces get hacked and altered on the whims of players who will be shopping around for something else the next month. Otherwise you wouldn't see all these refaced pieces offered for resale. I just don't know why some folks equate refacing with magic. It's more hit and miss than most will care to admit. Sure, it's just a hunk of metal, but you'll still be losing value; and if posterity means nothing to you, then at least think of the financial sting.

[Dr G]

How 'bout the middle ground of having an experienced mouthpiece technician EVALUATE the mouthpiece first? If the facing is good, then maybe a Link is not for you. If the facing needs work, get it fixed.

I agree that a good mouthpiece might be better in the hand's of someone else if it is not working for you. But if it is not a good original facing, there is little value in preserving the mistakes of the past.

[Grumps]

How 'bout the middle ground of having an experienced mouthpiece technician EVALUATE the mouthpiece first?
Not a bad compromise, but I generally still see it as forcing a square peg in a round hole. Yeah, the refacer may be able to round it enough to fit, but on a valuable vintage piece I wouldn't take the chance. Flip it, move on and find something else that works right off the bat. Now I know the original poster might not be swayed, but this is also for others considering same.

[carr]

To answer the original question, I think a lot of players like the Floridas for the combination of a big fat sound with presence and brilliance without a harsh edge that you can get from them. I also agree with the above, that the chamber/throat/baffle design of a Link works better in small and medium tip openings. If you are trying to get the same type of response from the Link that you get from the Lawton, you may need to try a smaller tip than the Lawton. I'm not real familiar with Lawtons. (I played my teachers P model many years ago). These two designs might be far enough apart that getting a Link to play like one is impossible. But I think you can improve the results with the Link by using a smaller tip. This is not an affront to your ability - it is an adjustment because these two designs have different response characteristics. You might decide you like the smaller Link better than the Lawton.

Maybe you could trade the Link for another Florida in a smaller tip. Nothing lost, but knowledge gained?

Sorry if this comes of as preachy - it's not meant to be.

[grasyk]

Hey guys I really do find all your constructive remarks enlightening and I thank you all for taking the time. I have previously corresponded with Ed Pillinger near London and he advises keep blowing and see if I get used to it but if I am convinced it needs reworking he will check it and reface where necessary.
I am coming to the conclusion that being used to an open tip mouthpiece like the Lawton and RPC I use, an 8* Florida may be too open.
Perhaps I need to get hold of a 6 to 7 as some of you have advised.

[Dr G]

I am coming to the conclusion that being used to an open tip mouthpiece like the Lawton and RPC I use, an 8* Florida may be too open.
Perhaps I need to get hold of a 6 to 7 as some of you have advised.

It is not that you are used to an open tip, you have most likely learned how to best blow a moderately baffled 'piece. The Links are different and require a different approach. Assuming that the Link you have is a good one, you would need to learn to blow the Link differently than you will your Lawton BB. That takes a commitment. Only you can determine whether it is a commitment that you care to take on.

[max]

It is not that you are used to an open tip, you have most likely learned how to best blow a moderately baffled 'piece. The Links are different and require a different approach. Assuming that the Link you have is a good one, you would need to learn to blow the Link differently than you will your Lawton BB. That takes a commitment. Only you can determine whether it is a commitment that you care to take on.
Yes yes yes yes.

I switched from a "Link on steriods" to a Florida Link, and couldn't figure the thing out.

I was using plenty of air, but I wasn't focusing it in any way - you can't just dump air into a Link. Once I got the hang of it, I loved it immensely. (unfortunately, it's not a good match for my SML, so it sits in a drawer... I should probably sell it, but I'm pretty attached to it.)

Hit the overtones—particularly matching the overtone to the normal fingering—and you'll figure out how to work it in no time.

[warp x]

I do too, and I'm sure there's someone out there that can use it in its original form. So many of these vintage pieces get hacked and altered on the whims of players who will be shopping around for something else the next month. Otherwise you wouldn't see all these refaced pieces offered for resale. I just don't know why some folks equate refacing with magic. It's more hit and miss than most will care to admit. Sure, it's just a hunk of metal, but you'll still be losing value; and if posterity means nothing to you, then at least think of the financial sting.


Exactly my thoughts.

[grasyk]

Being inspired by all of your comments and having my pride dented by not getting my chops round this Florida Link, I have got back from the office determined to get something going with the piece.
The only reed I had not given more than half hour on the mouthpiece was a RJS 2H.
I carefully fitted the reed and checked the way it was sitting on the mouthpiece (I don't like the ligature). Reed sitting ok.
On went the mouthpiece to the neck. Neck then fitted to the body. Sax fitted to me. My gob then fitted around the mouthpiece. 10 minutes warm up on a cold day in my conservatory. Checked the intonation - all spot on.
After an hour playing with a 'play along' CD I realised what these Florida pieces are all about.
Great fat sounding bottom end and bright, when required, top end.
I'm confident I can now move on and enjoy the mouthpiece.
It has a more rounded sound than my treasured Lawtons.
Thanks for all your comments.

[Dr G]

Very cool ending to your saga. You have just learned how to blow a Link!

If you continue to detest the lig, you'll find the Selmer 404 lig an excellent mate.

Play that Link for a while and I predict that your sound on the Lawtons will improve as well.

Enjoy!

[grasyk]

Thanks Dr G. I'll keep the Selmer 404 in mind.

[Carl H.]

Is this metal or HR? I scanned the thread and can't tell.

[grasyk]

Carl H. Metal

[Carl H.]

Yep, then a 404 is what you will want.

[Grumps]

Being inspired by all of your comments and having my pride dented by not getting my chops round this Florida Link, I have got back from the office determined to get something going with the piece.
Just make sure you're not trying to make this piece work for all the wrong reasons; i.e., to make others happy and/or not to dent your pride. You can get used to any piece if you force yourself to. Just know why you're doing it.

[saxobari]

Can anyone tell me what is so special with Florida Links? Ive got Lawton B and BBs, Bergs, ordinary Otto Link STMs including a great sounding NY version and my main gig piece which is a RPC115B.
I have managed to get hold of a 8* Florida Link which is in great condition and has perfect rails and tip. I have tried a variation of reeds (makes, types and grades). I have tried and tried to get used to the mouthpiece but have found it very reed picky. When I bought it I thought it would be comparable with my Lawton 8*BB. Contrary to popular belief the Lawton is flexible and is very reed friendly (perhaps I'm lucky). I find the Florida difficult to play expressively. Any suggestions?
I have tried and owned lots of tenor mouthpieces,,and lots of Links!
I just got lately a tenor Florida Link 8 (from Chicken Lil)this has to be the best ever otto Link I ever own! Can't say it is unfriendly with reeds,not at all.
For me personaly it is a FANTASTIC mouthpiece!Maybe I was lucky ,also to get it through Tom,but man what a great ,rich,deep,full sound I get on my tenor! Almost feel like a different horn,,but on the positive side!
It is for me a very goooood experience with Flo. STM.
Best regards
Saxobari

[max]

unfortunately, it's not a good match for my SML, so it sits in a drawer... I should probably sell it, but I'm pretty attached to
it.
Hold the phone... I just pulled this out and tried it again... hmm.

I stopped playing it because it sounded too spread on a rock recording I was doing. I just recorded myself playing it, and it didn't sound like that. I think I may have been hearing a poorly EQed playback (or something).

Innnnnteresting...

[Dr G]

See, you should NEVER again play a mouthpiece that you want to sell. You need to put it away - take pictures of it and pack it for shipping - else you'll never be able to commit to letting it go.

To be followed by an overwhelming wave of seller's remorse when you change horns in 8 years and wonder what it could do on your new horn. Yeah, I wonder where my Florida 7* is these days... and that Lawton 8*B that Theo touched up... or that silver Barone Jazz 8... actually, a couple of those went to a "friend" but he's not about to sell them back. Maybe I should call and borrow them for a while... Hmmmm... Where was I?

[Carl H.]

Yeah, there's a Mojo link out there I let go a couple years back that I'd like to try again on this tenor.

[grasyk]

Just make sure you're not trying to make this piece work for all the wrong reasons; i.e., to make others happy and/or not to dent your pride. You can get used to any piece if you force yourself to. Just know why you're doing it.

Good point Grumps. After working the Link for more than an hour I found a more rounded and fatter sound across the range than the Lawton. Altissimo notes have to be worked on more than the Lawton but that will come in time.

[garyjones]

I do too, and I'm sure there's someone out there that can use it in its original form. So many of these vintage pieces get hacked and altered on the whims of players who will be shopping around for something else the next month. Otherwise you wouldn't see all these refaced pieces offered for resale. I just don't know why some folks equate refacing with magic. It's more hit and miss than most will care to admit. Sure, it's just a hunk of metal, but you'll still be losing value; and if posterity means nothing to you, then at least think of the financial sting.

this is one of those grey areas. on the one hand stands the "all original" "value" people. it reminds me of collectors of all sorts. car collectors are always going on about "original" and "value". collectors all seem to be a little nuts and into junk just because its old or whatever. "posterity"
on the other hand is the player or actual user of a thing. he don't care one bit if its "original" he just wants it to GO ! As a player i like to find "original" ones cause i know they havn't been ruined but i know they are going to suck and need tweeking. i don't even really care if i ruin them really because as "original" they seem worthless in playing terms. once i get them the way i want them for my particular horn and the way i play they are like giant bolders of ruby covered gold. have i "lowered" the value ? NO WAY. the "value" is 100% in the sound. money isn't everything.
no -- i take that back. money isn't much of anything but paper.

[grasyk]

Good musician's comment Gary.

[Lorenzo Muan]

My experience is that you will have judged anything - in this case a mpc - better when you did it without any form of outside influence.

Once you have - in this case - read this thread with a great deal of praise for Florida Links, the chances are that you will like yours better even if it is a honker (in the pejorative sense that is ...).

It's the same with mpcs you want to sell ... you have one you have tried time and again, you want to move it on, then suddenly it is praised, you try it again and ...

We are influenced conciously and subconciously by what we see, hear and read more than you'd believe!

my 2 cents, YMMV, no I do not have any vested interests in this, etc. ;-)

cheers,

Lorenzo (who is extremely happy with the NY Link 7* that he bought off of Vendela)

[Grumps]

once i get them the way i want them for my particular horn and the way i play they are like giant bolders of ruby covered gold. have i "lowered" the value ? NO WAY. the "value" is 100% in the sound.
Not once you get them the way you want them, but if you get them the way you want them. Not everyone is clear on what they want when they decide to get a vintage mouthpiece irrevocably altered; and then it's just waste in my view. Waste of time, money and resources.

[max]

It's the same with mpcs you want to sell ... you have one you have tried time and again, you want to move it on, then suddenly it is praised, you try it again and ...
While I agree with you, in my case, I'm going with recordings. I admit, though, that the way you hear a recording could be affected by extra-musical influences.

Honestly, I'm a little disappointed that I liked the Link with this horn because I was starting to think I might sell it to fund some other stuff.

I stopped using it early on with this horn because I didn't think they were a good match (if you're bored, you can probably find dusty old posts saying so back in the archives).

Anyway, this is all just a long winded way of saying that I knew it was a great piece before this discussion came up.

[EZ]

The ideal refacing project is one where the player works with a piece for a while then determines that they like it, say, 80% or more. A competent refacer can help get the remaining 20% out of the piece - though admittedly it is not an exact science and there is considerable subjectivity involved that can lead to iteration - and that full 100% dead-on performance may not ever be reached. Such is the consequence of art and is the case whether the piece was made in Florida, New York, or Indiana.

[max]

Hold the phone... I just pulled this out and tried it again... hmm.

I stopped playing it because it sounded too spread on a rock recording I was doing. I just recorded myself playing it, and it didn't sound like that. I think I may have been hearing a poorly EQed playback (or something).

Innnnnteresting...
So, I've been playing the Link for a week now, and couldn't be happier with it.

I did change reeds when I switched mouthpieces, and didn't change back when I went back to the Link. I guess that means I could have solved my problems with a simple reed change rather than a mouthpiece switch.

Oh well, live and learn...