Elkhart 30A, Buescher metal. Myths?

[Baltimore B]

Hey there, I've been looking for the right Buescher for a while and from all that I've read and heard from other folks, it's been an interesting journey. My main axe is a Chu Berry tenor and I wanted something a lil' more refined but still powerful. As a backup I've been playing a great True tone. I love the highs but obviously, the lowend isn't as lush as what I'm used to. I tried many Aristocrats but none of them did it for me. Found an early "Wayne Shorter" Bundy (23xxx) that played nice but I let it go as it lacked that richness. Great dark and smooth tone but it was light and didn't have the harmonic content I look for. Just as I've given up, along comes this early 30A Elkhart (45xxx) for $100 with left hand bell keys and the keys are gold lacquered. I pretty much wrote these off as I've heard much negative stuff about these, having thin metal etc. First thing I noticed about this particular horn is the weight. It's really heavy, much heavier than the Bundy I had and you can't squish the bell with your fingers! Tonally, it's just got it right. The high end is like my Truetone, clear and rich but has a really lush lowend and subtone. It's a real bad$ss as far as projection. Nice, dark and refined but really speaks!

Now I know this one is early and the later ones I've played really felt "studenty", but along this search I found some other things that spell myth. I did get to play 3 Series 1 crats, a few 156 horns and some big B's. Two of the 156 horns felt light, the series 1 horns felt much more solid and heavy, but the heaviest by far was a really late model 156 I just sold (352xxx). it was a tank. From what I've been led to believe, the metal was supposedly not so hot this late in the game. I do think it's really a horn to horn basis and perhaps should be treated as such. For my money I'm really happy with this lil' Elkhart, it sounds as rich than any of the other Bueschers I've tried, it's really got something special. And it feels really substantial.

So is there as much truth to what we've been told about Buescher metal? Or did I just get really lucky with my purchase?

[Fungus Mungus]

For what it's worth, every 20A alto I've had has been incredibly free-blowing. I think these horns get a bad wrap.

I just got this Reynolds alto (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190273024238&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=009), which is a 20A with a killer engraving and some extra frills. But deep down it's a 20A and it plays as well as any Big B I've had. Check out the recording I just made (http://www.tranesplace.com/alto2.mp3) of me noodling on it. I think it's got a great sound, even though I'm behind it. The construction is as solid as any Buescher I've had too.

fm

[Baltimore B]

Wow Fungus, that Reynolds is gorgeous! What a cool looking instrument!
I should add too, that my Elkhart has a lot of copper in the mix, it's as red as the 30m and 10m I used to own.

And you sound great!

[Fungus Mungus]

You're very kind. The metal in the Elkharts I've played (I've had 3) have all been solid. Maybe the later ones are made of thinner brass, but the ones I had were all built like tanks.

fm

[JL]

Baltimore, I don't know anything about the Elkharts, but I'd bet that just like with all models, there are some exceptional ones and maybe that's what you have.

Anyway, on a side note, I'd like to hear what your experiences were with the series one Aristocrat tenors you tried. What you liked or didn't like, etc.

[Baltimore B]

Baltimore, I don't know anything about the Elkharts, but I'd bet that just like with all models, there are some exceptional ones and maybe that's what you have.

True that!

Anyway, on a side note, I'd like to hear what your experiences were with the series one Aristocrat tenors you tried. What you liked or didn't like, etc.


The series one tenors I tried, hmmm. There wasn't anything I really didn't like about them, there just wasn't anything in the sound that excited me enough to pursue them. I had the oppurtunity to try 4 out, one re-lacquer and 3 in excellent original shape. After putting them throught their paces I just didn't feel inspired, but they did all play nice. Oddly enough, they were more focused than my current Truetone, and maybe that's what I wasn't into. I just got more color out of my TT whereas the series one horns I tried were ultra pure with a solid fundamental (other players may experience something completely different!). My Truetone can get real trashy or stay pretty on a dime, I just didn't get that type of response from the series 1 horns I tried. I wished I liked them better, I think they are some of the most beautiful horns I've ever seen! Oh well, there are 4 more out there for others to enjoy!:)

I sold a Selmer "Largebore" tenor a couple of years ago. The TT I have and the Elkhart have a sound that to my ears is more similar to that horn, a good solid fundamental with plenty of harmonic "toast" around it. They are just more freeblowing and fun than the Selmer was.

[JL]

Thanks. I asked about the series 1 because I own one and also a 156, which is about 10 years younger. I agree that the series 1 has a focused sound, which I think some people might really like. Whereas the 156 has a much more free-blowing feel and 'broader' (maybe bolder) sound. Overall I think I prefer the 156, but I can see where some people might like the focus (almost 'laser-like') of the series 1. I was just curious to see what you thought. Seems like you had a similar experience to me, although I still sometimes really like the series 1. Right now, my MKVI gets the most work, but I spent nearly 3 years playing the 156 and was very happy with it. Something about the tone quality on that horn, and it can really wail. All the Bueschers have something going for them, but after playing them and trying out some other models (Super20, Conns, etc), I still return to the VI.

[Baltimore B]

Yeah, in the right situations the series 1 would be perfect. I play in a lot of loud settings and just felt lost in the stars. What I did find with the 4 series 1 horns I played is they were really consistent in how they played, sounded and felt. the 156 horns were all over the map. 2 were great, the other two I tried wouldn't do anything I liked.....

The Elkhart seems to fall right in between, nice focus but with a more room filling tone. It's getting some pads replaced, most were plain rivet pads. I'm having my tech replace them with those Selmer plastic dome pads. The true test is on the bandstand. I'll keep you posted when I get t play it live. I almost never use a mic unless it's a huge room myself so if it keeps up, it'll be a keeper.

Thanks for your responses!!!!

[Baltimore B]

Ok, back from the shop. I had the pleasure of using this horn on a recording and playing it up against my friends series 1. Impressions are as follows:

The real Aristocrat obviously feels better, yes it has more heft and a more solid thing going on. Like driving a big Cadillac! Playing the two side by side, ok, I can see feel that the flagship is a flagship for a good reason, however, we both liked the Elkhart in the tone department just as much. No tinniness to report, just a big, fat, complex tone like you would expect out of a Buescher. The upper notes really do sound like my Truetone, with a nice ring and almost a flute like quality. The lowend is lush and fat, bigger than the 1 or my TT. Really, the only thing lacking is the feel. Great bargain horn though. I do like a Cadillac so this may find a new home. It's opened my eyes and ears up to new possibilities for sure!

Peace and happy playing in 09!:)