C Melody advice needed

[Ryan427]

I've been thinking about adding a C Melody to my collection for awhile now, and this just came up for sale locally:



I've been told to make sure the neck matches the body and that it comes with a C-melody mouthpiece. If so, do you think this one's worth the $300 they're asking?

Also, does the "M" prefix mean this was made in 1969?

Thanks for your advice,
Ryan

[EsbSpecial]

the guys in the cmel subforum will be able to help you more...but I'll still give it a shot:

This horn is old. Most likely c. 1920s. Cmels have not really been used much or produced (aside from a few asian companies like Aquilasax) since the Great Depression. If it is a conn cmel, it should be straight necked and may/may not have a tuner (not sure). Make sure that it has a conn neck. As for a mpc, you can always use a short shanked tenor (such as a Selmer soloist), a vintage cmel piece or just order a new one from aquilasax (their metal ones are so much fun to play on...I have a set for my old Martin).

As for the value, what kind of shape is it in? Does it play? How does it play? Do the people selling it have any idea about it at all (cmels tend to get teh shaft when it comes to informed sellers it seems)? Are you aware of the quirks of the little horn?

Good luck and hopefully the other guys can be more help.

[DavyRay]

I have several c-melody saxes, including a Conn with the straight neck and microtuner. I like them. They are fun to play. If you do some futzing around to find a good mouthpiece and reed combination, they can be loud and edgy if you put enough air through them.

The one in the picture has at least two of the old white pads on it. Those may even be the originals. Certainly they are ancient. They will have to be replaced. You may be able to play it with them, but not for long. They will disintegrate with use. The cost of a re-pad, lube, and misc. repairs should be part of your decision.

The c-mel Conns have a tone more like an alto than a tenor. The Martins are the other way. Both can sound great.

[bruce bailey]

It was made in 1925. The neck should be straight like an alto and mouthpieces are cheap to find. It will need cleaning and pads so plan on atl leas $350 to get it going. For reference, I sell clean playing ones for about $500 and really nice ones for about $700. I would offer about $200 for that one so you have a little room for repairs. Having a good original case is a MUST.

[Ryan427]

Thanks for the advice, guys. It sounds like this isn't a super screaming horn or a collectors item by any means, but could be a player anyway. I'm sure it will need at least a repad, so I'll plan on that if I decide to start negotiating any prices.

[DavidW]

It is a fairly late serial number for a C melody though. It likely has the nail file G# key.

[Ryan427]

It is a fairly late serial number for a C melody though. It likely has the nail file G# key.

I'm pretty inexperienced with vintage horns - is the nail file G# a good thing?

[BlueTrane2028]

The nail file G# is about more than just a key. It signifies that it's a New Wonder series II instead of a series I. Series II horns often have slightly better overall feel and intonation, as it was an improvement to the line. I'm not sure if C-Mels really got retooled all that much, but I know the altos and the tenors certainly did.

[Connical]

It was made in 1925. The neck should be straight like an alto and mouthpieces are cheap to find. It will need cleaning and pads so plan on atl leas $350 to get it going. For reference, I sell clean playing ones for about $500 and really nice ones for about $700. I would offer about $200 for that one so you have a little room for repairs. Having a good original case is a MUST.


Not to beat a dead horse here, but Bruce was spot on regarding the case issue. Finding a case can be a real pain in the @ ss. You might be able to buy one from the new makers like Aquilasax, but it's no guarantee that it would fit the Conn well, if at all. Spending money on a case for a C Mel is not the wisest thing, since C Mels at this point, have so-so resale.

All that aside, I enjoy playing all of the C Mels I've owned. As long as you understand their limitations, a C Mel is a nice addition to any sax stable.

[Grumps]

Just because a deal seems to present itself, doesn't mean we have to bite; and quite frankly, $300 for an unplayable, and practically obsolete saxophone is no deal.

[rabbit]

If I may suggest...
unless you can obtain this sax very, and I mean very, cheaply
you're probably better off buying a horn from Bruce.

I endorse C-Mels. :)

[DavyRay]

Just because a deal seems to present itself, doesn't mean we have to bite; and quite frankly, $300 for an unplayable, and practically obsolete saxophone is no deal.

That is a good point. I do have a great Conn in silver with micro-tuner in working shape that I would sell for less than that. It has not been re-furbished yet. I have played it, and it does sound nice. A New Wonder II Conn c-melody with RTH and micro-tuner in sliver plate is a great saxophone. You may not make money on it. I do not expect to make money on it. I do like a c-mel, though.

[dvdberg]

I'm a Conn C-melody owner with a vintage near the one you're looking at. I paid $200 for it, $50 for shipping, $100? for pads and took it a couple of weeks of evenings to take it apart, pad and rebuilt it and finally spent $75 having a tech go over it and make it leak free. Was it worth it? For me, absolutely. I enjoyed the technical work and now enjoy playing it too. I recently bought and tried a Rico Royal B7 tenor mouthpiece as recommended elsewhere on SOTW and found the tone and intonation very much to my liking.

Someone once suggested that the Conn is the most professional of the C-mels. After my rebuild I find the action quick and satisfying.

I play the C-mel in a worship team at church and really enjoy not having to transpose. It fits in well to my ear as well.

So, do you buy it? It's a high quality later model c-mel, a New Wonder (my M151xxx is). Are you fixing it yourself? Are going to play it much and in what setting? Do you have the $$$?

[Ryan427]

Wow, you guys rock. Thanks for all the great advice!

The horn has the orig. case, mpc, and neck, and is in pretty good working order. So from what you've all said, if I can talk them down to the $200 range I'll go for it. I can do the repad myself, and if there are other problems - well, what better horn to practice on??

It'll be a fun horn to keep for years, and I'll probably take it to gigs every once in awhile for kicks (I still gig on my metal Pan-American clarinet every once in awhile:D). Besides, I've been looking for a new small project, so I'm sure it'll be worth it.

Like the card my friend sent me said:
Merry Christmas, and a Happy Depression!

-Ryan

[Grumps]

Sounds like a workable plan Ryan.
Good luck!

[NissanVintageSax]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but Bruce was spot on regarding the case issue. Finding a case can be a real pain in the @ ss. You might be able to buy one from the new makers like Aquilasax, but it's no guarantee that it would fit the Conn well, if at all. Spending money on a case for a C Mel is not the wisest thing, since C Mels at this point, have so-so resale.

All that aside, I enjoy playing all of the C Mels I've owned. As long as you understand their limitations, a C Mel is a nice addition to any sax stable.

I paid $160 for my Harwood, then had a complete overhaul done on (it had a broken key too that was completely missing!), and no case. The overhaul was $200. The case: I modified my Selmer MKVII Tre-pac & fit perfectly. It was all worth it to me. Oh yeah, also bought a new Runyon C-melody mpc for it too.

[Sax Magic]

C Melody saxophones are great fun to play, and many of them respond nicely to large chamber alto mouthpieces or middle-to-large chamber tenor mouthpieces. Understandably, the alto mouthpiece gives the sax more of an alto tone vibe, and the tenor mouthpiece darkens the tone to a decidedly tenor vibe. The $16 Rico Royal tenor B5 or B7 mouthpiece is a great starting place, and I use it in a church group on a 1920 King C melody.

I have had King, Conn, Buescher, and Martin C melodies. All of them played well when I took the time to learn their (minor) individual quirks (as is true of any saxophone). I kept the King because it was the only one with front F, and because it was nickel plated (rather rare). Any of them would have suited, though, and the Martin was really dark and smoky. The Conn was a good one, and I sold it to my brother-in-law to play at his church. Unforunately, he later sold it to someone else when he didn't use it much. If he had told me so, I would have bought it back.

C melodies get a bad rap, primarily because so few people have played them enough to get really good on them. But they can play anything that you can play, and you should really try to grab that one for $200 if you can. PM me if you want to talk C melodies.

Sax Magic

[cvsimson]

I have a Conn C-Melody just like this one.
It plays really well with alto (metalite) or C-melody mouthpieces.
Recently I cut a tenor metalite to be able to fit in the microtuner neck, and now I really love its sound.:D
The keys on this particular model of C-Melody are the closest you will get to a modern horn, and it can play in tune with the right mouthpiece.

[bruce bailey]

You may be able to just change some of the pads and save some $$$.

[cmelodysax]

That's a very sensible suggestion Bruce, if the pads aren't completely knackered - it's often then playable to a degree which enables the buyer to decide whether he/she really likes it, and wants to go forward with completely renovating it. A couple of my favourite saxes were temporarily fixed up like that ages back, and they still play so well that I just don't want to change anything... (well, that's my excuse :| )

Plus (if necessary) the sax is then also more resellable as a 'player' - although it should be pointed out that it has not been fully overhauled.

[bruce bailey]

All three of my Conns still have the original white pads. I adjusted them and replaced about 3 on each horn. I dyed brown pads so they would match.

[Bootman]

What most people fail to realise is that Meyer make a brand new C melody mpc that when tweaked is fantastic with excellent intonation on C melody saxes. My C melody has selmer brown resonators on reso pads with a JVW tweaked Meyer C melody mpc faced to suit a tenor reed. This horn wails and has a big sound that is somewhere between tenor and alto, it has the lyrical alto quality with more balls to the sound like a tenor.

Altissimo is possible on these C melodies too and when you find a good one you will really start to think about ways to use the horn. My Conn is a 1921 Straight neck silver plate/ gold wash bell that is in mint condition. I have had it for many years. I have sound clips available if people are interested.

[rabbit]

Thanks, Bootman, interesting to know about the Meyer for future reference.

[claxton]

Here is an interesting ebay sale on a Conn c-mel: 290286316595 . 770USD! Note that while it appears to be in pristine condition, there is no mouthpiece, nor is there an original case included. The neck was replated in shiny, rather than bead blasted finish, which is ok, but one wonders why the neck had to be replated. Was it damaged at some point? If so, it looks like it was repaired nicely, though.

[Ryan427]

All right, it's been awhile, but I thought I'd post a follow-up. When I went to look it at I was surprised to find how good of shape it was in. I put my tenor mouthpiece on it and it actually played quite nicely - a lot bigger sound than I expected. So I talked the guy down to $240 and went to work.

It took a LOT of cleaning - there was a lot of whitish residue that looked like someone put silver polish all over it 20 years ago and forgot to wipe it off . . . anyway, after a lot of cleaning, replacing just a couple of pads and springs, taking out a lot of leaks, and a few other adjustments, this thing is up and running!

[Ryan427]

Oh, with regards to playability: it sounded like an alto that was going through puberty but hadn't quite reached tenordom yet.

The stock mouthpiece was pretty "blah," so I got a hold of one made by Bill Street up in Maine.
*WOW!*
Seriously, just that mouthpiece alone turned this from a taking-up-space-in-the-closet and show-it-off-every-once-in-awhile horn to a completely in tune, nice sounding, playable horn that's a perfectly viable gigging option.

Apparently Bill has 2 different C-mel mouthpieces - one for Conn-style bores, and one for Bueshcer-style bores . . . and the wrong mouthpiece will throw the intonation & playability way out
of whack.

Thank you, Mr. Bill Street!

[stitch]

Apparently Bill has 2 different C-mel mouthpieces - one for Conn-style bores, and one for Bueshcer-style bores . . . and the wrong mouthpiece will throw the intonation & playability way out
of whack.

Interesting info on the Bill Street pieces Ryan247. I have a Buescher one, but was unable to discover anything about it. How did you find out about the two models?

[Ryan427]

Interesting info on the Bill Street pieces Ryan247. I have a Buescher one, but was unable to discover anything about it. How did you find out about the two models?

I can't remember who told me about them. It was probably the local professor, whom I usually ask for advice. I called Bill directly & he told me about the differences between C-mel models, etc. That guy knows a LOT about the intricacies of sax acoustics, what small things make the big differences, etc . . . I think he used to work in Indiana back when the major sax manufacturers were there. Wish he'd get on the forum and share some of his knowledge!

Anyway, Bill is a really nice guy, and I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to you. The number I have for "Woodwinds by Bill Street" is 207-839-2231.

[Grumps]

Always love a good follow up.
Thanks for that!

[stitch]

Anyway, Bill is a really nice guy, and I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to you. The number I have for "Woodwinds by Bill Street" is 207-839-2231.

Cool, thanks, though I doubt I'll be calling him from the UK!

[saxtek]

I agree with everybody on this thread! How unusual! There are a lot of logical points of view here. Over the years, I have purchased 4 C melody saxes, costing from $35 to $150, but it has been a while. I overhauled all of them, hoping that time would bring me a profit. C Melody prices have never taken off, and I still have 3 of them. I think $300 is not outrageous, if the horn, mouthpiece, case, etc. are complete. The restoration might be expensive, and I agree with Bruce. $700 is top dollar.

[mark_m]

Ryan I think you scored big. Beautiful horn. I didn't even know they updated the C-Mel's at all into the NW2 version - I don't think it's common. I bought my silver straight-neck about 30 years ago for something like the same price, didn't hardly know what a saxophone was. Always liked it, played it now and then. It had the original pads I think with no resonators. One day when I had some money and had developed a big appreciation for my silver chu alto, I decided to buy the cmel an overhaul. Ended up spending $900 on a premium rebuild by the most expensive tech you might ever run across. Custom sterling resonators and Resopads, beautiful work. The horn has 100% silver, is dent free, and it pretty much just about plays itself. No accounting for why someone would put so much into a C-meloday, for sure. The case was shot so I bought a new case for $100., one of those generic hard cases, they make them for C-Melodies, amazingly, fits perfect. Don't ask me, I just like the horn. It's a little like marriage, maybe - once you commit to it, you don't worry so much about whether you're getting your money's worth - you just enjoy it and don't look back...

Bootman any particular fingerings you use for altissimo on a Straight-neck?

[Ryan427]

. . .The case was shot so I bought a new case for $100., one of those generic hard cases, they make them for C-Melodies, amazingly, fits perfect. . .

Mark, do you remember who makes those cases? I've never heard of them. Thanks for your input!

[Grumps]

DEG still makes them: http://degaccessories.com/cases.php?VAR_SearchType=saxophone

[Little Sax]

I purchased an Aquilasax (http://www.aquilasax.com/Accessories_sale.html) made case second-hand from an SOTW member who thought it might fit his Martin.

It did not.

It fits my Conn quite nicely though.

Here's the description from the website:

New FAB case for C mels now available through the new shopping cart . Nylon fabric covering hard panels over a molded foam insert. Has pockets for mouthpiece, neck and other accessories. Also has two shoulder straps to use it backpack style or just over the shoulder. Represents the best of protection with light weight and low price.
$60.00 plus $50 shipping

[mark_m]

Mark, do you remember who makes those cases? I've never heard of them. Thanks for your input!

I think it might be DEG.

[Mal 2]

I purchased an Aquilasax (http://www.aquilasax.com/Accessories_sale.html) made case second-hand from an SOTW member who thought it might fit his Martin.

It did not.

It fits my Conn quite nicely though.[/COLOR]

I'm pretty sure the issue is the extra brace on the bow of Martins and Bueschers. My True Tone wouldn't fit in an Aquilasax case either, but the Holton did. It was less than ideal, but nothing a little foam hacking (a spoon where it's too tight, and a can of spray foam where it's too loose) can't fix.

My much easier hack for the True Tone was to use a tenor gig bag and a six inch long neck plug to keep it from rattling around. The neck plug is just a piece of 1/2" Schedule 40 PVC and a little bit of shrink tubing to make it fit tight in the top of the body. Sprinkler pipe would work just as well.

[differencetone]

You can buy a C Melody mouthpiece here: http://www.aquilasax.com/

[Sax Magic]

After a 4 month wait (!), I received a DEG C melody case from WWBW. Apparently, DEG was out of stock, and they had to wait until the case came up in the manufacturing rotation (either that, or DEG waited until they had enough pre-orders to stop the line of other cases to make a series of these). It fit my friend Bob's Conn C tenor really well. The RH D#/Eb key cage needed to be tipped/tilted into the case for a smooth entry and exit, but that was an easy adaptaion for Bob to learn, and the horn fits firmly in the case with no movement whatsoever. It is a black tolex solid wood case, bound edges, side and end handles, with black plush interior. If you are going to be using the horn regularly, like Bob does in a country band (Ace Cannon and Boots rule in Bob's world!), then you will need a modern case like this one. $120 at WWBW, free shipping.
I know of no others on the market, except that Aquilasax has now started selling their cases as aftermarket replacments. I don't know who makes their cases, but wouldn't it be funny if DEG made them! Probably they don't, however; there are probably many oriental case manufacturers who could build for lower costs than USA and ship less expensively to "down under."