Slap Tonguing and Popping

[Karen Stephan]

Does anybody have some helpful hints on slap tonguing or popping or know of books on the subject? I'm shooting for the Joshua Redman or James Carter effect.

[DocSax]

Well, the technique that I use involves forcing the air out of your mouth without drawing any air from your lungs. Try saying a very forcefull "T" sound, with just the air that's in your mouth. I'm sorry if this is confusing, but this is the best that I could do without showing you!

Happy Popping!

[wbras]

Not sure exactly what to call it, but for many years I've been able to do this thing I jokingly call "staccatissimo" ... it's like saying the word "Tug" ... tongue with the tip of the tongue and almost simultaneously blocking the air passage with the back of the tongue. It sounds like a bass guitar when you use enough pressure. I've never heard anyone else do it. It always makes guitar players crazy when I play a bass line. Pretty much a useless novelty.
wbras

[John Laughter]

Karen, send an email and I will forward some info about the slap tongue effect that might be helpful. JSAXL@aol.com

[Harrell]

Why not post it here, John? Lots of us would like to know what you have to say!

I learned a kinduva duck thing - I learned it off a Boots Randolph album. It sounds something like "thok thok thok"

[Karen Stephan]

Thanks so much for the info. I'm going to try your ideas tonight and see what happens. I have been so frustrated about this for months! :D

[John Laughter]

Harrell, I am sorry. You are correct and I will be glad to post it. I will post an explanation on the board asap. I have been on the run this week and it takes some time to outline the effect but I promise to do it by the weekend.

[John Laughter]

Harrel, the “slap tongue” effect dates back to at least a 1928 in a piece of published music. Some contemporary classical music arrangements have made use of the effect but I do not remember that name of the compositions. I recall hearing the sax section in a 40s big band movie using it in a novelty type arrangement. James Brown’s tenor player used it on the 1962 version of “Nigh Train” in the 2nd part of the melody as an 8th note answer to the low C that is played at the end of the melody line.

Jazz artists John Klemmer, James Carter and Yoseff Lateef have all used it in their solos.

The sound is created as a result of the release of suction in the mouth and the popping sound that the reed produces which amplifies as it travels through the horn.

Lay the tongue against a lot of the reed. Gently push upward so that the tip and rail of the reed is closed. Get rid of as much air in the oral cavity as you can and seal off the lip so that you have an airtight fit. The tongue is quickly released in a downward motion. DO NOT pull the tongue back towards your throat. It needs to pop downward away from the roof of the mouth to get the most volume. Do not blow air through the horn and do not inhale when you release the tongue.

Low F or G fingering works the best for me. They produce the most volume but I would imagine that fingerings differ from player to player. Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

Another little known...and often un-noticed use of the effect is on Bill Doggett's "Hold It", after each of the two-note sax parts in the head!

[John Laughter]

I forgot to add that when you release the tongue downward, you also drop your jaw and open your mouth in a "popping" motion. This is all done very quick.

[asian sax]

while we're on the subject of tonguing, does anyone know how to do this certain type of tonguing where it sort of muffles the sound?

i hear it a lot in the music i'm listening to. it's usually used with a phrase where just one note is used but the musician alternates between the tonguing to make the notes sound different.

i think i explained it good enough, lol

[saxophone_volume1]

that might not be tongueing to cause that effect.

play a middle A then put down right hand 1, 2 and 3. Is this the sound you are hearing.

[John Laughter]

Asian, that could be, as saxophone states, the alternate fingering technique or it could be "ghosting" which is done by lightly laying the tongue on the body of the reed (not directly on the tip) and keep the air flow going so that the note continues to play. This technique muffles or dampens the sound/tone between two main notes.

However, if it is an "obvioius" sound change to your ear it is probably the alternate fingering trick. If you need a little more info on alternate fingerings, let us know.

[Harrell]

Thank you, John... I really appreciate your response. I learned something similar (but not quite) as the (low tone) "thok thok thok" sound that Boots would sometimes make. It;s almost like clocking your tongue while blowing slightly... I will try your method ... more soon.....

[Mike W]

I learned to slap tongue by myself to play along with that old percolator coffee commercial. John describes pretty much how I do it. If done violently enough (it is not a subtle technique) it will give a good (and loud) popping sound. Seems to work best for me for any note below c3 on tenor and lower notes tend to be a bit louder. Low Bb is a hoot. I used to do it on bari as well. I suspect it is a bit less effective on the smaller horns. I'll have to try it on alto and soprano tonight. since I have never tried it on either.

[Bill Mecca]

I've done it, once :oops: haven't been able to get a handle on it again, but I haven't really tried either.

for another good example check out King Curtis on Champion Jack Dupree Live at Montrequx, I think its on the tune "Sneaky Pete." that CD is a wonderful lesson in itself of many different aspects of live playing, like where the keyboard player adds or subtracts measures on the fly :lol:

He won't say it, but it is also outline in John's Book Rock and Roll Saxophone Published by Centerstream Publishing and distributed by Hal Leonard.

[John Laughter]

Thanks Bill.

[Spidercomrade]

A useless anecdote:

In 6th grade, the first year we had to audition seats in school concert band, I made 2nd chair instead of 1st. It was all because I had slap-tongued every note that wasn't part of a slur, and the band director didn't seem to like it much. Luckily, there was an option to "challenge" the person ahead of you and I regained my rightful place. :wink:
I just thought it was weird I developed this thing in 6th grade that a few people cannot do but would love to. Slap-tongueing doesn't seem that useful to me... I've never found occasion to use it.

Also, I think bari players will have a much easier time learning to slaptongue... for some reason it sounds louder and more satisfying on the low saxes.

-Spidey

[khyrand]

Some contemporary classical music arrangements have made use of the effect but I do not remember that name of the compositions.

For example: Drastic Measures by Russell Peck (SATB, recorded by the New Century quartet), which uses slap tongue in all parts as a special accent; Sonata by Mark Kilstofte (recorded by Cliff Leaman and Derek Parsons), a tour de force of the technique! one of the middle movements starts with a (literal) metronome obbligato, adds a bit of piano, then requires the saxophonist to play a slap tongue back-beat for the rest of the movement while simultaneously maintaining a separate poly(?)rhythmic part...

[John Laughter]

Thanks for the titles K. It may have been one of those selections that I recalled but it has been a few years.

[Storamin]

So true, slaptongueing is so easy on my bari.

[Kevin]

slap tonguing has been around at least from the early 20's...Rudy Weidoeft used it all the time and I believe I remember seeing an old pamphlet from the late teens that talked about it.

There seems to be at least a couple ways to do it, one the way John says, and another where you don't drop your jaw. From all outside appearances, you cannot see any difference from normal tonguing. But, you can still get a very loud popping sound...with this way though, you can also get a delicate pop that simply replaces the normal tongue. So, you can have a hard pop, with or without a sustained note afterwards, all the way to a very soft pop, with or without a sustained note afterwards. I am not an expert with it (though I have heard people who were), but I believe you achieve it pretty much the same way John describes but without dropping your jaw. Also, you do (or can) continue to push air through the saxophone as you do this. I have a friend that can slap tongue as fast as I can do a normal single tongue.

There are quite a few classical works that call for slap tongue (and Sigurd Rascher may have had the most refined technique)...Ibert's Concertino, Larsson's Concerto, Brant's Concerto, numerous chamber works written for Rascher, and many modern pieces as well...a Sonata by Mark Kilstofte has a killer slap tongue. Henry Brant has said that if saxophonists will learn the slap tongue the way Rascher did ("not the silly little clacks that some saxophonists use") that he is ready and willing to write for the saxophone again. [he composed the amazing concerto mentioned above]

[Paul Coats]

There was a series of sax ensemble pieces from the late teens and early 20's, Laf 'n Sax, Slip 'n Sax, and my favorite, Slap 'n Sax. I am not sure of the exact date, but apparently the effect was well known, and especially heard on bari and bass saxophones.

[Vortex]

Some advice: Don't try it for the first time on good reeds.