New Section: FAQ/Kohlert History

[Pete]

I'd like to thank Harri for allowing me to convince him to create this section. I suggested it to him a couple of days ago because of two reasons:

* There seem to be a lot of Kohlert threads on the SOTW Forum -- actually, there are more here than on any other sax forum or newsgroup.

Aside from the ones that have been moved into this topic, there are even more threads here concerning repair and the Keilwerth stencil(s) made for Kohlert.

* I'm almost finished with the Kohlert history page for my website (www.saxpics.com). I'll be posting my "rough draft" here (soon) for public comment.

As mentioned, I'm working on that Kohlert page. I've got a whole bunch of pics at www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/kohlert, but if any of you want to share pics of your horn with me, please send them to saxpics@x-mail.net

[Pete]

As threatened, the history article. Please send me comments or corrections or post here:

... Kohlert is NOT the Kohler company, but it is "V. Kohlerta Synove" (that's the Czech version of "V. Kohlert & Sons"). The similarity in names and similarity in the saxophone designs from Kohlert and Kohler throws most folks for a considerable loop. The similarity in design is not because they shared a common ancestor, but more rather because company X would produce a good design and then everyone else would copy it (this tidbit of information popped up numerous times while I researched Kohlert and Keilwerth). Matters grew more complicated after Keilwerth began producing saxophones in 1925/6: not only did Keilwerth produce stencils of their horns (of which, they branded at least one Kohlert model), but they furnished saxophone bodies to a variety of other German and Czech manufacturers which would affix their own keywork and sell the horn under a different name – with no trace of the Keilwerth mark on the horn.

Here’s a timeline:

1840: The Kohlert company was founded in Graslitz, Czechoslovakia by Vincenz Ferarius Kohlert. However, he did not produce any saxophones.

1900/01: V.F. Kohlert dies and the ownership of the Kohlert company is transferred to his sons, Rudolf, Daniel and Franz. The company’s name is changed to “V. Kohlert’s Sohne”. Kohlert produces the first German-made saxophone around this time.

1910-1916 (Approximately): Kohlert stencils saxophones for HN White (King) in the USA.

1915-1925 (Approximately): Julius Keilwerth apprentices at the Kohlert company. It is arguable if Keilwerth influences Kohlert’s designs more or vice versa.

1938 (Approximately): Kohlert is the largest German instrument maker, employing 600 craftsmen and producing an entire range of brass, woodwind and double-reed instruments. Keilwerth is a distant second with 150 craftsmen and producing only saxophones.

1939-1945 (Approximately): WWII. Kohlert produced relatively few instruments during this time, as production was limited by the conversion of most factories to producing war materiel and the Nazi original disgust of all things Western, especially jazz. There was some limited production and horns produced during WWII are labeled “Third Reich” and are generally quite elaborately engraved – with Nazi regalia.

1945-1948: After WWII, the firm was “nationalized” into the Amati cooperative (Amati’s website says the cooperative was founded in 1945 and was fully “nationalized” by 1948 ) and the Kohlerts became workmen in their own factory, similar to what happened with the Keilwerth family. According to the Lein article, the Kohlert family was no longer even allowed to put their stamp on their instruments and many craftsmen fled Czechoslovakia.

It’s an unconfirmed fact that Amati used Kohlert and Keilwerth tooling in their first horns, rather than producing anything new: the first Amatis were labeled “New King” – a Keilwerth model name – and had the Keilwerth “Best in the World” logo stamped on the back. Some even used the Keilwerth serial number chart!

I’m not quite sure if Amati just decided to use Keilwerth saxophones as their template for future models, but the “second generation” of Amati horns, such as the “Classic Super” is fairly reminiscient of Kohlert, not Keilwerth, designs.

1948: The “last” generation of the Kohlerts evacuated to West Germany: Max Kohlert died in 1949 at about age 50 and was an instrument maker by training. Kurt Kohlert died in 1973 and was a businessman by training. Ernst Kohlert died in 1986 or '87 and was a musician. None of the three brothers ever married.

After arriving in the West, Ernst worked for a short while with instrument makers near Fürth, and then the city of Winnenden provided the brothers with a former barracks (actually a wooden house) in which to establish a new workshop. They wrote to their former employees and many of them came to Winnenden to work in the new shop. Because the Kohlert factory had made such a wide variety of instruments, the tooling and demands upon various crafts made it especially difficult for the Kohlerts to resume full production.

1948/49: About forty people were employed in the Winnenden factory. At first, they only repaired instruments, mainly for the American army , but resumed instrument production began in the fall of 1949 with saxophones. A new serial number chart was instituted, starting at zero , and the “V. Kohlert’s Sohne” mark was dropped in favor of just “Kohlert”.

Cybersax.com and a few miscellaneous newsgroup/forum posts also indicate that there was a Kohlert model that had beveled tone holes. Considering this design is a radical departure from the standard Kohlert designs AND because Keilwerth also had a similar design right after they fled Czechoslovakia, it’s possible that either this “new” model is either a Keilwerth design or could have been jointly developed between the two companies.

1953/54: Kohlert employed around 100 people from 1953 to 1954, with about seventy working in the "barracks" and another thirty working at home. These "home workers" had small shops in their homes and would receive the materials, complete their part of the assembly process and return them. Several craftsmen only made saxophone bodies and even the bells and necks were made in Winnenden. The Kohlerts also employed four tool-makers whose job it was to make the tools and apparatus used in the factory according to the designs and needs of the instrument makers. Thus everything was done "in house" with specially crafted tools.

1955-1965: The two remaining Kohlert brothers, Kurt and Ernst, entered into contracts with American wholesalers which guaranteed that the Kohlerts would supply instruments at the same price for ten years . What the brothers didn't foresee was the onset of the "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder," or “German economic miracle”, when the materials costs and wages rose so dramatically. At this point they couldn't get out of these long-term commitments -- the penalty for breach of contract was severe. Instead of specializing, they continued to make the whole range of instruments and the profit margin kept shrinking. Realizing they couldn't continue in this manner, they tried to cut labor costs by minimizing handwork. It appears that this move was rather poorly thought out and accomplished little. They hired engineers to figure out how to make certain parts more efficiently, i.e., at lower cost per unit. Suddenly cases and cases of a single key, or some other part, would arrive. The lower cost had been achieved by manufacturing quantities greater than they could have used "if they had worked another hundred years on them". Suits were brought against these consultants, but the Kohlerts lost and were left with a financial situation which required declaring bankruptcy in 1965.

1966: About twenty employees continued producing instruments to meet bankruptcy obligations. Serial numbers stood at about 85,000 at the time of the bankruptcy.

1967: Fritz Pfannenschwarz, an industrialist from Nordheim who was interested in music as a hobby, came to Kohlert to buy a bass clarinet and was told that nothing could be sold without consulting the administrator of the bankrupt estate. He asked the price of the bankrupt firm, was told 40,000 DM and subsequently bought it. Although plans had already been drawn for a new factory, nothing had come of them and work continued in the "barracks". Later Pfannenschwarz moved final assembly operations and sales to Nordheim, concentrating on flutes, saxophones and clarinets.

1977 (Approximately): The final line of Kohlert saxophones was discontinued and the final model name list was Popular, Regent, Star and Excelsior. The best of these horns was and is considered to be fairly low quality.

1981-1983: Albert Moosmann, once an apprentice in the firm, his son Bernd and another partner no longer associated with the firm purchased the remains of Kohlert in Winnenden. Today the name "Bernd Moosmann" appears on the bassoons, which is what Kohlert now specializes in.

--------------

ERRATA:
* Contrary to some Internet forums and newsgroups, there is no relation between SML and Kohlert. The connection that people use between the two companies is that both used rolled tone holes and that some Kohlert models are said to have the “switchable” articulated G# key that's found on the SML. Literally dozens of companies used rolled tone holes and Leblanc/Beaugnier/Vito used the switchable G#, too, and none of these have any connection to SML. Additionally, I can’t really see a French manufacturer cooperating that closely with a German manufacturer around WWII (SML was founded in the late 1930’s).

* There is at least one model of Kohlert that’s really a Keilwerth. Kohlert probably stenciled the horns from Keilwerth to try to capitalize on the growing saxophone market of the late 1950’s in Germany when they couldn’t get out of their “contractual obligations” (see above). Juilus Keilwerth apprenticed with the Kohlert company in the 1920’s and the influence in design was definitely bi-directional.

* There has been a lot of discussion about the Kohlert model that has the fancy little letter keyguards. First of all, the letters are “VKS”, not “JSK”, and it probably stands for “V. Kohlert’s Sohne”. The “JSK”, in this interpretation, is expanded to mean “Julius S. Keilwerth”. I’ve not found any documentation that even says that Julius’ middle name started with an “S” and the mark on Keilwerth horns is “JGK: The best in the world.”

Footnotes and mega links will be in the final article for my website, of course, though a good 75% of the above can be found in the article “Whatever Happened to the Kohlerts” (http://idrs.colorado.edu/Publications/DR/DR13.1/DR13.1.Lein.Kohlert.html) by Paul and Janet Lein. I was able to confirm a lot from a few other sources, too.

Again, if you've read to the end, please send me comments or corrections or post here.

[cuthbert]

Very good,only a little thing:I found on ebay.de a saxophone called F.Köhler (with umlaut) model "Empor":

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3705250271&category=23 298

What do you think?In your article you said as far as you know Kohler never made saxes?First pf the family?Do they exist "Köhler" and "Kohler"?

[cuthbert]

By the way,on ebay.de I found alot of instruements that seems to be somehow Keilwerth or Kohlert related like the one called "Kohler":Wolfram,Reiner... also,also a Keilwerth "2nd series" of the ´38 that I never see before on your site:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3705468358&category=23 298

Alle these instruments loók veryt sinilar:same keyguards,same body,tone rolled holes,sometimes microtuners (sometimes remouved like I think it was on this toneking),always in silver,in whatever conditions.

What do you think they are?Kohlerts?Keilwerths?Amatis?Or something different?

[goodsax]

I have a V. Kohlert & Sons (as engraved on the bell) alto with a serial number, 246XX, that from the best info I can find translates to 1955. But, under the "Best in the World" JK logo is stamped, "Made in Czechoslovakia" and I'm wondering how that could be if the Kohlert family moved to Germany about 10 years earlier?

Could this be an Amati manufactured stencil with V. Kohlert & Sons engraved on the bell and a JK logo under the serial number? It doesn't seem to fit the Kohlert family history, especially with the Made in Czechoslovakia stamp and the JK logo.

[goodsax]

I forgot to mention that I too am glad Harri added this topic. I also have a Kohlert soprano for which I have very little information. You can see it at

http://a8.cpimg.com/image/E2/62/30207458-94d3-027D014E-.jpg and
http://a4.cpimg.com/image/DE/62/30207454-5725-0267010E-.jpg and
http://a2.cpimg.com/image/DC/61/30207452-45b0-028001E0-.jpg .

Engraving is by Jason Dumars. It's a solid player with comfortable ergonomics and excellent intonation. I'd really like to know more about this Kohlert sop, but little results from a Google search.

[Pete]

Forgive the lack of umlauts -- supply them at your leisure.

* Köhler was founded in Markneukirchen, Germany in 1933 by Franz Köhler and they stopped producing instruments around 1961.

* Köhlerta produced saxophones around the same time as the V. Kohlert Sohne horns, but if Köhlerta = Kohlert (they're both from the same area), why the two names? If they are the same, I need to compare horns from allegedly the same years. I'm sorry that I don't know enough German or Czech to determine from the online fora about these horns if they're the same company, but I don't see many horns labeled "Kohlerta", except around the 1920's.

öööööööööööööööööööööööööööö

Goodsax, I've seen your horn. It's definitely a Keilwerth. Why is a 1955 horn stamped "Made in Czechoslovakia"? I dunno. I have to look at the Kohlerts I have pics of to see if they are labeled similarly. It's even possibly -- but unlikely -- that the serial number is a Kohlert one, rather than a Keilwerth one.

[goodsax]

If it's a Kohlert serial number and not Keilwerth, where can I determine the age from that? Thanks - Rob

[Pete]

I'm going to try to kludge together some kind of serial number chart, but so far, the only data I can tell you is that if you have a VKS horn, the serial number roughly corresponds to the year of production, such as:

1,000: 1901
24,000: 1924
etc.

There's also a model 1929, which I can assume was produced in 1929 :)

------------------

I've got a few Kohlert-labeled (NOT VKS) horns that have "firm" dating, as well as the deduction that the 55 models (etc.) correspond to 1955 (etc.).

I think it's a fair lock that the Edgware (a Kohlert stencil) and Fogware (a Keilwerth stencil) were produced for Boosey and Hawkes around the same time, so I should be able to use that info to correspond more serial numbers, because we've got a Keilwerth s/n list ...

[goodsax]

In that case, my 24,6xx can't possibly be a Kohlert s/n equating to 24,000: 1924 because I can't believe this gorgeous alto is that old. The original finish - the engraving is crisp and sharp to the touch - is just too much intact to have been around that long. I find it hard to believe it can be as old as 1955, but that's what the Keilwerth s/n chart indicates.

You can bet I'll be very interested in, and will waiting to see, how the Kohlert section of your saxpics website develops. I appreciate your effort doing this because, as you know, there isn't much info available on this exceptional sax mark/name.

[Pete]

Sorry I was unclear, I edited to make it better:

The horns labeled "V. Kohlert & Sohne" have a different serial number chart than those labeled "Kohlert".

Please note in the history above how Kohlert changed their s/n scheme in 1948/9.

[goodsax]

Just a minor point, that may be important: My Kohlert is actually labeled, "V. Kohlert Sons" exactly with that spelling and no ampersand.

[Pete]

OK, y'all can stop the e-mails. I relent:

"Vincenta (or "V." or "Vizenze" or several other variants) Kohlerta Synové Kraslice" is the Czech version of "V. Kohlert & Sohne, Grasliz" -- and, as goodsax points out, the Anglicized version is "V. Kohlert & Sons, Grasliz".

Sorry.

I corrected my above history and added data on HN White ...

Thanks, folks!

[stitch]

I think it's a fair lock that the Edgware (a Kohlert stencil) and Fogware (a Keilwerth stencil) were produced for Boosey and Hawkes around the same time, so I should be able to use that info to correspond more serial numbers, because we've got a Keilwerth s/n list ...

I thought Fogware was simply a mis-reading of Edgware and not a separate model?

[Pete]

Editing:

It does seem that you are correct about B&H:

I did a search of the former Boosey and Hawkes discussion board, Google and then looked at my Boosey & Hawkes pictures. The word is "Edgware", after the B&H factory in the 1930's. However, there are a couple of folks on this forum that do insist that they have seen horns labeled "Fogware" -- with an identifiable "F" -- and according to a Keilwerth Forum article (http://www.boosey.com/cgi-bin/sqlforum.exe?name=doContent&Forum=Julius+Keilwerth +Saxophones&Thema=Edgware/Boosey+and+Hawkes/Keilwerth&rsnb=34&rsnbtotal=75), Keilwerth did make some B&H horns in the 1960's, but they don't know how many. It's possible, I suppose, Keilwerth saw the engraving "Edgware" and confused it into "Fogware", like I have, and engraved that on a few horns.

Looking at my pics, all of the Edgware horns are Kohlert Bixley stencils, IMHO. I'm also told that the Regent model might be a better fit, but not according to the pics I have -- and I do note that the Regent & Popular model names were recycled at least once, though.

Regarding the Keilwerth-labled Kohlert stencil, the serial numbers on these horns are around the 24xxx - 25xxx range. If I look at my Keilwerth page, I should be able to exactly correlate the horn with a New King model. I really can't: the "I" series had the freaky chromatic side keys. The "II" series had beveled tone holes and the "III" series (which is what the 24-25xxx sn should fall into) has the funky lucite keyguards.

BUT -- and this is a good one -- I don't see any "III" horns from the 24xxx-25xxx range. The earliest I have is s/n 25681. Might these "Kohlert" Keilwerths be a subset model I haven't listed before? Might it have been jointly developed between Kohlert and Keilwerth? Might they actually be designed at the former Keilwerth plant in CZ, but really made by Amati? I think that the circumstantial and engraving evidence points to the latter most explanation -- especially considering I hve pics of an Amati Toneking (http://www.saxpics.com/Keilwerth/misc_pics/amati/tenor/30642/) with a s/n in the 30xxx range that looks similar to these "Kohlert" Keilwerths

[stitch]

The word is "Edgware", after the B&H factory in the 1930's. However, there are a couple of folks on this forum that do insist that they have seen horns labeled "Fogware" -- with an identifiable "F" -- and according to a Keilwerth Forum article (http://www.boosey.com/cgi-bin/sqlforum.exe?name=doContent&Forum=Julius+Keilwerth +Saxophones&Thema=Edgware/Boosey+and+Hawkes/Keilwerth&rsnb=34&rsnbtotal=75), Keilwerth did make some B&H horns in the 1960's, but they don't know how many. It's possible, I suppose, Keilwerth saw the engraving "Edgware" and confused it into "Fogware", like I have, and engraved that on a few horns.

I've never seen one of these horns in the flesh (metal?), but from pictures it is very easy to read 'Edgware' as 'Fogware' - the lower leg of the 'E' extends under the whole name, and the writing is all squarish, so it's easy to confuse the 'd' for an'o'. Surely JK couldn't have engraved that many wrongly before B&H noticed?

[Pete]

I'm not even necessarily saying that they did -- nor am I necessarily saying that Keilwerth actually made anything for Boosey: the Keilwerth forum information is rather abysmal and not always correct. However, without evidence to the contrary, you have to go with it: they're the manufacturer.

My supposition about "Fogware"=Keilwerth is a product of my imagination and has yet to be corroborated. Let's get Dave Speigelthal down here ...

[cuthbert]

What abou the silver german saxes found on ebay.de?Anyone have any idea?Kohlert stencils?

[Pete]

* Köhler was founded in Markneukirchen, Germany in 1933 by Franz Köhler and they stopped producing instruments around 1961.


I don't see anything to indicate that the Köhler horn you refer to is anything but Köhler. Additionally, "2185" as a Keilwerth or Kohlert serial number would be a horn with split bell keys.

As an Amati, I dunno. I've seen some old Amatis that do have similar keyguards, but I've also seen other horns (e.g. Weltklang) that have similar keyguards.

Please note that while Kohlert and Keilwerth were "big names" in the German sax biz, they weren't the only companies producing horns in Germany.

[Pete]

Ah. More time for my occasional research.

Thing 1: there are VKS models 1926, 1928 and 1929. This'll help when I make a "complete" serial number chart.

Thing 2: the very partial serial number chart (only listing oldest/newest horns or date confirmed horns I have pics of):

Model/Serial/Confirmed Date

Early/1/1901
Model 1926/221280/1926 (soprano)
Model 1928/216510/1928 (s/n confirmed. Odd, no?)
Reich/238950
Popular/242314
----------------------------------------------------
Winnenden/7940
Winnenden/11260/1954
55/21171/1955
Regent/29000
55/29800/1955
57/35300/1957
Bixley/49800/1957
Bixley/50375/1957
57/51023/1957
58/60283/1958
Deluxe/70930
Bixley/78190
85000/1966
Thing 3: The Keilwerth-labeled Kohlert model (as mentioned in an earlier post) seems to date from 1956. Anyone got a Kohlert from 1956? A "Model 56"? I don't think they exist.

Thing 4: As you can see from the above chart, it seems that Kohlert had a couple models going at once, especially in the years after 1954. I dunno how I'm going to sort these when I do my final model breakdown.

Please continue sending me pics! That helps me with serial number ranges and makes the data all that much more accurate.

PS: I question including anything but alto or tenors in the s/n list to accurately reflect date manufactured, even if the model name is engraved on the horn. It was common practice for companies NOT to switch over production of their more uncommon horns to different tooling until the demand for the new model was unquestioned. See, for example, the above soprano.

However, if you have, e.g., a Kohlert 59 bari, I still wanna know the s/n!

[goodsax]

It looks like my 246XX alto must fall within the '56 zone if I read your list correctly. It's a JK logo, as I've mentioned before, with V. Kohlert Sons on the bell.

[xax]

my Edgware 72xxx tenor is a '57 according to the B & H ser# list. and a Kohlert Bixley stencil according to the good work of Pete and others. but i see no "made in West Germany" mark anywhere on the horn. is that the norm? i thought the country of origin was a required mark. i realize that in those times, relatively shortly after "The War", it might have been a good thing to minimize the German origins but does anyone know if it has a mark in some obscure place.

[xax]

'1955-1965: The two remaining Kohlert brothers, Kurt and Ernst, entered into contracts with American wholesalers which guaranteed that the Kohlerts would supply instruments at the same price for ten years . What the brothers didn't foresee was the onset of the "Deutsche Wirtschaftswunder," or “German economic miracle”, when the materials costs and wages rose so dramatically. At this point they couldn't get out of these long-term commitments -- the penalty for breach of contract was severe.'
i've seen this stated repeatedly but as far as i know, these "American wholesalers" have never been identified... so, who were they?

[Hurling Frootmig]

I have a Fred Gretsch Manufacturing Company "The Gretsch Album of Woodwinds" with a January 1961 pricelist that lists that only lists their clarinets and bassoon. The only saxes listed were Beaugnier ($250 for alto and $300 for tenor) Monopole ($200 for alto, $260 for tenor, and $360 for Baritone), and the Grafton which listed at $167.50 plus $28.00 for the case.

I always figured Gretsch was importing all of the Kohlert products but as of 1961 they were only listing clarinets and the Bassoon.

[Pete]

The "American Wholesalers" link is spotty. I make mention in my endnotes (that aren't listed above; sorry) that I really think this is mainly Boosey and Hawkes: their Kohlert stencils were the Edgware and the Oxford (Canadian). Additionally, I do keep hearing about Concertone being a Kohlert stencil. I've not seen any of these (I've only seen the Conn-stencil variant), but that'd be a horn from Sears.

[xax]

yeah, the B&H link makes the most sense except for the "american wholesaler" aspect. as for the Oxford do they have rolled tone holes? i read somewhere(on SOTW?) that they had straight tone holes but i don't know for a fact. otherwise, to me they appear to be the same as the Bixley.

[Pete]

I've seen a grand total of one Oxford and it didn't have RTH.

By the bye, I think I've seen the latest Kohlert tenor: s/n 92656. I think that'd be around 1970. Sold on eBay for $277 US.

I also added a couple horns to my above "confirmed" serial number chart.

What I think I'm going to do for the model breakdowns is have one page that says something like, "V. Kohlert & Sons Instruments" and list one of each of the several models and then try to compare with, say, a Conn or Keilwerth of the same year. I'll then do the same for the "Kohlert" horns -- BUT I'll have a special page for the (Amati) Keilwerth-Kohlert.

Anyone come across that rumored Kohlert with beveled tone holes?

[hithigh]

Thing 1: there are VKS models 1926, 1928 and 1929. This'll help when I make a "complete" serial number chart.



Have you missed Model 1927? I got one. Alto, s/n 215 137.

[Pete]

Thanks! I didn't exactly miss it; I hadn't found any.

Please send me some pics at saxpics@x-mail.net

[Pete]

Now I'm working on talking about models. Submitted for your approval:

A preliminary note:
The designations “Regent”, “Popular” and possibly “de Luxe” seem to originally have referred to finish, tonehole and/or keywork choices. By the 1950’s, this not only referred to finish choice, but also, with the addition of the Bixley models, student through professional quality.

I base this on a couple of observations:
* In my “Pre-WWII” set of horns, I have pictures of several nickel plated altos that lack G# trill keys and forked Eb keys labeled “Popular”, but the silver plated, unlabeled altos have both and have more elaborate engraving (no help from the contrabass or sopranino)

* I’ve got several of the beautiful “VKS” horns in my databases, but they’re all engraved a bit differently:
- I have pictures of a lacquered alto with additional pearl inlay has a plain “Kohlert” engraving
- I have pictures of what looks to be a silver plated horn labeled “Regent”, but it lacks additional pearl inlay
- I have pictures of what looks to be a silver plated horn labeled “Popular”, but it lacks a G# trill and fork Eb fingering

* In the 1950’s, I have pictures of the Regent, again. The tenor I have pics of looks exactly like a 57, but it’s in nickel plate and the serial number sorta-kinda indicates it’s made in 1956 – when Kohlert’s pro model was really a Keilwerth stencil by way of Amati.

The “de Luxe” made its debut in the 1960’s, after Kohlert quality had taken an immense nosedive. However, this model had rolled tone holes – and that seems the only difference between this and other Kohert models of the same era.

“EARLY MODELS”: The earliest Kohlert horns are reminiscent of Couesnon’s award-winning design, but have some marked departures, especially seen in the reduced keywork and straight tone holes.

I don’t know when Kohlert switched to rolled tone holes or if they offered rolled tone holes as an available option.

These horns probably switched to a “full” keyed range (i.e. low Bb to altissimo F) and to roller keys around 1910, when Kohlert started exporting horns for HN White to use as stencils.

“1920’s MODELS”: There are at least four horns that Kohlert specifically labeled with years: 1926, 1927, 1928 and 1929.

People want to compare the Modell 1926 to the Conn 6M Artist model, and I suppose you can, as far as just cosmetics go, but because the 6M Artist was introduced several years after Kohlert introduced this horn, it’s more accurate to say the Modell 1926 is like the ORIGINAL Colonel Conn design mixed with a Conn New Wonder. Heck, the Modell 1926 even has the Mercedes-Benz-logo low C keyguard and microtuner neck!

The Modell 1928 is interesting because the design is again split-bell-key and the horn looks overall like a Buescher True Tone trying to be a Conn.

I have no pictures of the 1927 or 1929 models (at current). I’ve asked the folks that told me they own these horns to send me pictures.

“1930 – 1935 MODELS”: These horns are essentially Modell 1928’s without the engraving and with slightly redesigned keywork.

“VKS MODELS”: Sometimes INCORRECTLY called the model A880 –- “A880” is actually, “Concert A=880hz; i.e. ‘low pitch’” -- these are probably the highest evolution of the VKS design: some models have extensive additional pearl inlay, like the Conn “Virtuoso Deluxe” horns and all have intricately designed keyguards that spell out “VKS” -- and the bell keys are moved to the right side.

I tentatively date these horns around 1935 because of the presence of the Keilwerth “Deluxe” and Selmer Pennsylvania Special models that have similar features and are conclusively dated. One also assumes that, by 1939, these models were discontinued as the Kohlert plant was retooled for the war effort.

“WWII MODELS”: Very few horns were produced during WWII and most were hand-made. In other words, you might see horns with split bell keys, left hand bell keys, or right hand bell keys and a variety of different keyguards and keywork designs.

Most of these horns are also fairly elaborately engraved, sometimes with full Nazi regalia.

I’ve seen a couple of these horns. I regret to say that I don’t have pictures.

“POST WAR”: After WWII, and Kohlert’s relocation to Winnenden, Germany, there was a beveled-tone-hole model that was produced, for a very brief time. It’s likely that the horn in question is the New King model actually produced by Keilwerth.

“WINNENDEN”: This is unquestionably Kohlert’s first new horn to be produced after WWII. It, to me, looks like a Martin Handcraft Committee II crossed with a Buescher True Tone crossed with a Malerne. The tone holes are again on the left side of the horn.

“KEILWERTH MODELS”: In 1956, Kohlert stenciled a horn, rather than producing their own. It’s an Amati Toneking stencil with a Keilwerth serial number. Confused yet?

At the end of WWII, Amati “nationalized” the Kohlert and Keilwerth companies and produced horns using, mainly, the Keilwerth tooling (very few used the Kohlert tooling). They kept the same Keilwerth model name, “Best in the World” stamp and serial number chart, even.

These horns are not the equivalent of “real” Keilwerth horns: the keywork is a bit lacking.

“55, 57, 58 and 59 MODELS”: These are the last “good” Kohlerts ever produced, according to most popular opinion, with the 57 being the unarguable best.

The 55 is essentially a slightly redesigned Winnenden, but the 57 is a completely new design with right hand bell keys and somewhat reworked keywork. According to some, particularly www.cybersax.com, it’s on par with the Mark VI in terms of sound quality.

“BIXLEY”: 1955 was a good year for Kohlert. They had just entered into their agreement with Western distributors and needed to produce an intermediate and student model.

The Bixley is definitely a mass-produced, student-quality horn that was sold primarily as a Boosey & Hawkes stencil called either “The Edgware” or “The Oxford” (if you happened to get one in Canada). There are rumors of a "Silvertone" or "Concertone" model sold in the US by Sears.

“KOHLERT”: The last series of Kohlert horns is supposed to have been called “Popular, Regent, Star and Excelsior”. I’ve yet to find these names, though. What I have found are some horn that are mass-produced and of quite varying quality. They definitely are some variant of the 57/58/59 design, though.

[jasendorf]

I'm not sure I'm following you on what you mean by the Regent not being a "model." What defines "a model?" I guess that would be my question...

[Pete]

Good question.

The easy way, but not most accurate way, of putting it is a model is defined as a horn produced by a manufacturer (e.g. Kohlert) that is different in some significant way from the horn that precedes and follows it OR if the manufacturer themselves says that a particular horn is a model.

(Please note that there's no Kohlert company around, so there's no way to confirm what model is what.)

Taking an easy example from the above, there are a few "versions" of the "VKS" horns (the ones with the funky keyguards that read "VKS"): some unlabeled, some labeled "Regent", some labeled "Popular" and probably some labeled something else that I haven't seen. What's the difference between these horns? Keywork and finish (i.e. plating/lacquer). Overall each looks basically the same and they probably have the same bore, which means that they play the same.

Taking another example, I've done a lot of work on the SML horns, to try to categorize them by feature set because their first models had a variety of different names inscribed on the bell and their later horns had no model name whatsoever. Take a look at www.saxpics.com/sml.

Taking a contrary example, I've seen Buffet horns that have had a similar feature set as the S1, but were engraved with the name "SuperDynaction". These horns are obviously different from the regular SuperDynaction, so how can I categorize them? Easy enough: call 'em SDA Transitional horns (http://www.saxpics.com/buffet/SDA.htm).

Gotta run. The 9-month-old is busily rolling toward the "sleeping" dog ...

[soreliprick]

This just in: 808x tenor Kohlert/Keilwerth/New King I don't know what I've got here except it sounds great{even with the crappy pads - some of the old ones look to be rivet-only Conn ResoPads with the metal ring} it sounds great, compared to a '55 Aristocrat and a '48 The Martin, looks like a combination of the two, no auto G#, and until someone refutes it, seems to be goldplated. Maybe the Germans didn't run off with all the gold.

[Pete]

Yay!!! It's finally done!

My Kohlert pages are finally up at www.saxpics.com/kohlert. I've also uploaded a whole bunch of new Kohlert pictures and cobbled together a decent serial number chart.

Take a look and write your comments here or send me an e-mail.

[soreliprick]

Everything I could possibly want to know about Kohlert......except what this finish is - I'm thinking highly burnished brass or gold - and the date of manufacture - wait, I just noticed your chart - 1954 accordian to your charts. Thanks for all your hard work! And I'm really enjoying my tenor, the non-automatic G# is not a problem, actually an enjoyable option with the large G# key to use in tandem with whatever other notes I wish.

[Pete]

From the pictures of the horn, I'd call it polished brass.

[jasendorf]

If you want some pictures of a lacquered Regent, you can feel free to steal the ones from my site:

http://www.338tharmyband.com/jasendorf/kohlert/

[innerear]

Nice work Pete. I'm in general agreement with this info, but wonder how you settled on 1955 as the year the Bixley first appeared? I always assumed that the ones that just have Kohlert on the bell (no model name) were identical to and preceded the Bixley. They can be nice little honkers and deserve to be considered as a cut above "student line". One more bit of minutiae -- Boosey and Hawkes sold at least two different horns with the Oxford name; one is a Bixley/Edgeware with RTH's, and another (which I mistakenly bought) appears to be a student level Mark VI copy with straight toneholes. Quality control on the horns towards the end of production seems to have been kind of spotty.

[OLDAIR]

I own three saxophones which appear to be Kohlert Stencils but this has not been confirmed by any one.

An Orpheum Tenor with rolled tone holes and elaborate engraving - had some lacquer left on it in spots but has been converted to bare brass. The heaviest tenor I have ever held. This is a wonderfully smooth and expressive sax. A keeper. Can be seen on Saxpics site under misc horns I think.

A Telecaster Alto. Key guards are attached a little differently than the Orpheum, but in all other respects, the Orpheum's little brother - Engraving style is just like the Orpheum but in a different pattern. This one is in the shop so I don't know how it plays yet. I hope it sounds like the Orpheum. This horn is also very heavy and well built.

A Chesbro Bari - A little newer than the other two - with heavy sheet metal keyguards, but still has the rolled tone holes as do all three of these horns. Needs some adjustments and repairs but I have High hopes for it.

I also own a few Bundy Specials and some Dorfler and Jorka Keilwerth clone/copy hybrids which are almost identical except for some very minor keywork differences. The Orpheum, Telecaster, and Chesbro seem to be made by a different builder than these horns.

When I get these in better shape, I'll take some pictures of the Telecaster and Chesbro and send them on to Saxpics where you can judge for yourself.

[Aliss]

Hello!
My bari - VKS s/n 266xxx (1935?)
What do you know about it? Whether is at whom same?
Exqz my eng :roll:

[lacontessanbs]

I have a kohlert soprano but it is v different to yours - the serial number is #2 - this seems to mean that it is from 1901, which I have just found out today. Also, it is curved and is silver (nickel that is). It doesn't play very well, although when it does, it has a nice tone. I really love it but am depressed by the fact that it is so temperamental.

[Arnimal]

Hi!
Just want to say that I have two Kohlert VKS models;
One Alto (SN:2779xx) from 1937 and
one Tenor.
The tenor is actually a v. Kohlerta Synove; SN2865xx
So according to the serial number chart the tenor should be made late 40's by Amati. This is curious since the tenor and alto do not differ that much.

[gkudev]

Hallo Sax friends
I com from Germany , I´m new here and I have a question . Can someone help me ?
I have a Kohlert Tenor (V.Kohlerta Synove Kraslice C.S.F. Model The Popular) . It has a roled toneholes and a "man in the moon" Neck with Microtuner. Ser.Nr 347468 . Can someone tell me what is this ? A Buescher , Conn , Keilwert Stencill ? When was my sax build ? I´m posting some pictures . Excuse me please for my bad English
Thanks gkudev

[gypsydancer]

Hi gkudev,

IMHO your sax is a Kohlert, not a stencil made by anybody. You might compare your neck to this one:

http://www.saxpics.com/the_gallery/K...8242x/sax7.jpg

which is from a "VKS". It appears identical to me. I have not seen any sax with the Kohlert name on it that I think is a stencil, other than the Keilwerth from the mid 50s. As explained on Saxpics, it would seem that all the Kohlerts marked "V. Kohlert's Sons" are pre-WW II, and all the ones marked "Kohlert" are from after.

I really think your horn is from the 1926-1934 era but your serial number is way off. I own numerous Kohlerts: saxes, clarinets, bass clarinet and all seem to fit the serial number range that is on Saxpics; it also appears to be one range for all instruments and all seem to fit the correct era. Could you have misread your serial?

Also, I don't think that the language of the engraving on the horns has anything to do with where the horns were made or who made them. I have three "VKS" horns: one engraved in French with Paris dealer name; one engraved on Hungarian with Budapest dealer name (and Hungarian original owner) and one engraved in German. I think that they were making custom engraving and possibly finish levels to order for dealers. remember Hohlkert was the largest manufacturer in Europe at the time.

Regardless, my VKS alto and tenors are my favorite horns; I would not trade them for anything. The sound, intonation and quality of construction are second to none.

[gkudev]

Hi gipsydancer
Thank you for your reply . I´m posting you a pic with the Ser Nr .
Thank you

[gypsydancer]

Hi Gkudev,

Your horn serial is exactly what it should be: 247468, made about 1933. Should be a great horn, well worth repairing and maintaining.

Also, you should send some photos to "saxpics" as he doesn't have any of this model.

Regards

[poot]

Hi,

Today in a pawnshop I saw a Kohlert 57 alto. Didn't think to get the serial number. It obviously needs a complete overhaul; the pads look very worn and some of the keys stick. Has the rolled tone holes. At the base of the bell there are some crinkly marks that have me wondering if it's been relacquered. The right-hand thumb rest and several posts have been resoldered. Don't know if it has a neck and mouthpiece, but of course I can find out.

They're asking around $200 for it; that's probably high for a sax that might not play. Any idea what the market value of a restored Kohlert would be?

Thanks in advance,

Poot

[cjharvey]

Good question. I'm looking to find a place that appraises or gives the value of these Kohlert models. I'm not exactly sure about how to find out the exact model. It's an alto, silver model, obtained 1940-45. Reads: Popular, V. Kohlert, s, Sohne; Graslite; Czecho, slovakei. Serial No. 249473.

Thanks for any help you can give.

[kuniz]

Hi there, it's quite interesting reading here, to try to dig out the history.. just to be precise: "V. Kohlerta Synove" means exactly "the sons of V.Kohlert" and, it sounds a bit strange for us (I am Czech), more properly it should be written as "Synove V. Kohlerta". On the other hand, "V. Kohlert a Synove" (with that space) means "V. Kohlert & Sons". Anyway, good articles about german and czech sax history can be found here http://www.klaus-a-schneider.de/index.htm and even more comprehensive here http://www.saxwelt.de/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=237&meid=232. Regards, kuniz

[megagnarley]

I've been looking at a suppossed Kohlert 55' with the serial number 339xx, but according to the list the last SN for the 55 was supposed to be around 29xxx. Could this still be a 55. It says 55 and also says made in Germany im just thrown off by the alien SN.

thanks

[Punya]

Hi,

I am new on this website and thrilled that I found you.

Here comes a question for you admired specialists. A couple of years ago I bought a "V. Kohlerta Synove" tenor saxophone with pearl inlay, beautiful rolled holes and the engravings "284596" plus "A880". It came with a "man in the moon" neck and its original case. Unfortunately, I have thrown the case away as it was too heavy. It is now in a brand new soft bag. I bought it on a visit to Prague. Can anyone give me any information about it? As I used to be an amateur jazz musician I played it for a short while. It is in perfect working order. My sax teacher at the time, a professional jazz musician, used to admire its sound.

I am also thinking about selling it and am more than happy to add some photographs of it to these pages. I would be very grateful for your comments and, if you are interested buying it, an offer.